132 replies to this topic

[Hayden]

...and this is why 3025 is a much better year to begin. Everyone understands "The Star League collapsed and the constituent states spent the last couple hundred years fighting over who would rule the whole mess (ed: and we're about to do it yet again)." Everything is nice and gray and static, and the plot doesn't (ed: yet) twist like Chubby Checker in a blender

Edited by Hayden, 06 January 2012 - 05:36 AM.

[flessar]

Yes it is true that the IS has a history of huge warcrimes, and I dont seek to legitemize them by pointing out Turtle bay or any other incident that the clans were responsible for. However many Clanners decide to remain ignorant and refuse to admit that they too have blood on their hands as well.

They vilanize the IS for every rearguard, burning of the forests, fighting in evacuated cities (honestly if civilians have been warned 10000 tons of vengeful clan tech is coming their way and they dont clear out, im not taking responsibility for them) and even using suicide runs as legitimate desperation strategies. And make no mistake about it, the tech and skill diffrences on the individual scale refuse to allow any other strategy but a long slow bleeding desperation strategy to work. We cant go ton for ton, or gun for gun, due to loadout and structural designs and the range/damage disparity.

We can win through throwing more bodies at you then you can bullets at us, look at Russia during WW1 and WW2, that was their strategy by enlarge through both wars. They matched the superior firepower and skill of the german army with their numbers swamping and overwhelming their positions. It is a legitimate military tactic, while wasteful in the extreme for men and material, it is legitimate. For those that deny it, they are on the loosing end and feel cheated, nothing more.

[Dihm]

Amarus Cameron, on 06 January 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

Dihm I love your sensible arguing so plus one for you but what is tough for me to do is to separate myself from the Clans. I am Smoke Jaguar, that is how I have grown up in this game, as soon as I hear mechwarrior/battletech all I can think is "what freebirth will challenge me this day?"

Imagine yourself as someone from the Laborer Caste and see how fun Clan life is.

[Amarus Cameron]

I have sir, in fact it is a pretty good life, though full of work. Did you know that Clan Smoke Jaguar laborers, most of them, have never even met a warrior before? The CSJ warrior caste before the invasion was always sequestered away from the population, not because of their superiority but because they did not want to expose the people to the rough and violent nature of the warriors, along with them not wanting the warriors to grow soft through city life. The average laborer has a higher standard of living than the warrior, they may not be able to vacation whenever they want but they have holoprojectors for all clan TV (which does include entertainment) they have real food, not the clan warrior caste food that is described by color rather than taste. They are able to go out in the city and relax, they are able to chose from a myriad of vocations, and they are able to test into other castes. It is not a bad life, and for all the IS novelists saying "the warriors treat the lower castes like crap" that is not the norm, most regard them apathetically if not semi respectfully, one does not eat without someone making the food, or fight without armament, etc etc.

[Amarus Cameron]

flessar, on 06 January 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

We can win through throwing more bodies at you then you can bullets at us...

This is the Inner Sphere's answer to every problem, not just the clans. This is why we are superior, pure and simple.

[Dihm]

The novels are canon though Amarus, and they aren't Spheroids or Clan.

Maybe it's just me personally, but I don't think I'd have fun in a rigid caste system where I lack basic freedoms.

Quote

Clan society is based on a strict caste system. Births between members of two different castes are frowned upon. Any children born are locked into that caste (i.e. the child of two technicians will become a technician) unless they do not qualify during training. The five castes are the Warriors, Scientists, Merchants, Technicians, and Laborers, with the Warriors being the most prestigious. Among other things, the Warriors act as the military, police force, and rulers of the entirety of Clan society. The only Clan where a different caste is held in esteem comparable or possibly even greater than the Warriors is Clan Diamond Shark (formerly Clan Sea Fox), where Warrior-Traders are fairly common and Merchants are now the de facto rulers.

Castes are further broken down into sub-castes. So, within the warrior caste are the infantry sub-caste, MechWarrior sub-caste and fighter pilot sub-caste, among others. This is important for the warrior caste, since each sub-caste requires different attributes and hence different gene-pools.

Washing out of a caste will usually mean demotion to a lesser caste. This is usually the case with warriors, but can happen to others; for example a scientist caste child with learning difficulties. This demotion fulfills the Clan ideal of reusing or recycling all resources and avioding waste. The demoted person is supposed to embrace their new caste, and usually do with few exceptions.

Yay... I get to be a laborer because my parents were. What a fun life. I'm not a big fan of culture-wide discrimination, segregation, and repression.

Amarus Cameron, on 06 January 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

This is the Inner Sphere's answer to every problem, not just the clans. This is why we are superior, pure and simple.

Yeah... you just throw warriors who are 30+ years old who haven't done quite as well as someone higher up would like at mechs with nothing but a rifle. The whole Solahma thing is messed up.

Edited by Dihm, 06 January 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Amarus Cameron]

Dihm, on 06 January 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

The novels are canon though Amarus, and they aren't Spheroids or Clan.

Maybe it's just me personally, but I don't think I'd have fun in a rigid caste system where I lack basic freedoms.

No what I mean is that certain writers were Clan and certain writers were IS, most of them were IS, one very prominent IS writer was Michael Stackpole (ironically he wrote Wolf)

Even though there is that quote and I think it is from the Clans warriors of Kerensky, which is written by Phelan Kell, that is not true. You are getting one perspective, Wolf perspective, and we know that wolves bend the truth and rules to suit them, they are not as rigid to clan culture as most other clans. All the source books were written from a perspective, and this one, like all the others, leaves things out.

CSJ, CJF, CGB, CGS, CDS, and others allow shifts among the castes. Yes you are born into a caste but if you can proof that you have what it takes to go into another then you can.

Also what basic freedoms are you talking about. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...check. So what are we missing? Hell you can even be a warrior if you want!

Dihm, on 06 January 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Yay... I get to be a laborer because my parents were. What a fun life. I'm not a big fan of culture-wide discrimination, segregation, and repression.

See above

Dihm, on 06 January 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Yeah... you just throw warriors who are 30+ years old who haven't done quite as well as someone higher up would like at mechs with nothing but a rifle. The whole Solahma thing is messed up.

That type of solahma is choice, you chose to be in that unit, other solahma that is required is mostly garrison duty or training.

[William White]

Amarus Cameron, on 05 January 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Crusader and proud





I have had this same argument thrown at me hundreds of times, so, here I go again.

The clans knew how real war was fought and rejected the model. You wanted the clans to legitimize your slash and burn warfare, your total and unbridled destruction of civilization, we refused. Why do you think that we came to burn away the chaff, your governments sanctioned the loss of technology and life on a criminal scale they have no right to any power. If we had fought such as you then there would have been nothing left.

Yes the Inner Sphere was willing to do what was necessary, and have proven themselves quite capable of mass murder many times over. Not to say that killing a clan warrior is murder, it is not, he was a warrior and knew the risk. What bothers us is the civilian death toll it is completely wasteful.

Who is the honorable human being? One that throws unprepared people into a meatgrinder simply to slow the enemy down, one who conscripts warriors from lower castes, one who uses innumerable machines and lives as throwaways to stop something they cannot understand let alone stop. Or the people who train warriors for years before they are even allowed to see the inside of a mech, the ones who do not bring war to the lower castes, ones who accept the conquered as equal clansmen? I think the answer is clear.

As for the last comment "lost them a war they might otherwise have... dragged on longer before loosing anyways to the IS's apparently vastly superior industrial capacity." this is completely incorrect, we captured 40% of the Inner Sphere's production capacity when we started getting into the third wave, as we conquered we captured factories and workers who had no issue retooling the factories and churning out things for our use. Plus our supply lines from the homeworlds were intact we could have sustained ourselves for complete victory. And not only that once we got to Terra we would have released the Homeworlds clans, by default, into the fight.



Actually the size of the forces designated to each clan unit. 3 Armies per 3 Galaxies the disparity is much much higher, a galaxy is roughly 228 omni mechs (they were frontline obviously) the mechs for an army is roughly 1296 mechs of variying quality that is about six times the size PLUS supporting armor and infantry units. No my friends the clans did not fight 1 to 2 odds. And then we bid down which I think is what undid us. I think if we had kept our three galaxies and not bid at all (seen the opening agreement as the bid) we all would have won regardless of the ENORMOUS number disparity.

I was talking about the "Rite of possesion" for terra when comstar out number the clans two one. That fight even though it was a week long and hard fought the clans where beaten on their own terms they decided the number of their troops as is their tradition. They got beaten fair and square. Also do not tell me clans did not kill civilians, war is war no matter how you play it innocent people will die. Also I notice you did not response to the melee fighting remark - had to bow out on that one I am sure!.

[William White]

Stormwolf, on 05 January 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

They don't find it dishonourable, merely distasteful.

I think that we might be giving Alcom Isst a bit of information overload here if he is reading all of this.

From what I read it was actually considered dishonourable but that could just be me putting my own slant on it. Also distain - you big girl's blouse - man up!.

Also any human being that believe that it is superior to another is on a hiding to nothing. Many human civilisation that have considered themselves superior and have come acropped - yes and that coming from an englishman!.

[Catamount]

Quote

Also any human being that believe that it is superior to another is on a hiding to nothing. Many human civilisation that have considered themselves superior and have come acropped - yes and that coming from an englishman!.

Putting the Clans above reproach is just part of the Übermensch mentality inherent to their society.

The clans may have a "soft" caste system, at least some of them (some of them do not), but that caste system itself is just a product of that same mentality, of the notion of people being ordained to be inherently better than others, which is why you see that caste system then get complimented with classic eugenics (which often goes hand in hand with the Übermensch mindset). Just listen to the disdain the high-caste vat-born clan warriors have for the lesser "freeborn" people, even just in the way they say it, "freeborn"; it's an Untermensch classification if ever I've I've heard of one.


If anyone's looking for a great, virtuous society in Battletech, they're not going to find one quickly. All of the various groups represent people who are often belligerent and warlike, often oppressive in one way or another, often not entirely politically stable, and are often corrupt and self-serving in one way or another. These flaws pervade Battletech societies, all Battletech societies, but to be flawed and to think oneself essentially above reproach out of inherent superiority? Well isn't that just an especially dangerous mindset?

Edited by Catamount, 06 January 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[Catamount]

While I'm at it, I have to say, the Word of Blake nonsense was really kind of a shame. It was almost like the IS was beginning to come together into something that might someday have become respectable, but lest Battletech threaten to become highbrow science fiction and show genuine change and advancement, the writers needed to hit the reset button

[William White]

Sorry guys I know some of you are clan fans but really they are as flawed as the rest of us so please lay off the superiority complex!!!!!. In game fine, you are RPGing but not the forums please it really is tedious.

[William White]

Also we might be scaring off the new guys!!!!!

[Catamount]

Bah, if people want to forum-RP, I've got no problem with it, and if they want to think there's some inherent superiority to clan society and/or a master-race quality to the so-called "trueborn" Clan Warrior (because that's not remotely demeaning to everyone else or anything...), then they can be free to their opinion, as free as others are to dispute that opinion.


Besides, what's more at the heart of this franchise, especially in this time period, than Clan/IS disagreement and bickering (if really nasty bickering, involving thousands of multi-ton battlemechs )? If our new guys didn't understand just how deep that divide between those two societies ran before, they sure do now!

Edited by Catamount, 06 January 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[William White]

Maybe I was a bit harsh........

[Thorn Hallis]

Amarus Cameron, on 05 January 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

Actually the size of the forces designated to each clan unit. 3 Armies per 3 Galaxies the disparity is much much higher, a galaxy is roughly 228 omni mechs (they were frontline obviously) the mechs for an army is roughly 1296 mechs of variying quality that is about six times the size PLUS supporting armor and infantry units.

No PLUS. Armor and infantry assets were allready integrated in the Level-structure of the Com Guards. So an army consists of up to 1296 units, not solely mechs.


Oh, and the clans allready massacred civilians (theirs and that of other clans) long before they marched into the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 09 January 2012 - 03:23 AM.

[Amarus Cameron]

Thorn Hallis, on 09 January 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

No PLUS. Armor and infantry assets were allready integrated in the Level-structure of the Com Guards. So an army consists of up to 1296 units, not solely mechs.


Oh, and the clans allready massacred civilians (theirs and that of other clans) long before they marched into the Inner Sphere.

Ok I get you, 1296 units, either way a Galaxy still has at make 225 mechs and for each mech last you can gain 2 aerospace, 5 elementals, or 2 tanks, which are all deemed equivalent to a mech. (my number is derived from the standard CSJ Galaxy 5 Trinaries in a cluster, 3 clusters to a galaxy...though this certainly varies, as Epsilon Galaxy normally has 2 clusters and Beta Galaxy at full strength has 4 clusters)

If you speaking of Londerholm that is because the merchants wanted to be able to have unrestricted trading (which included what were considered dishonorable methods) and when told no they with held food shipments and took up arms to enforce this embargo. CSJ did not want to set a precedent to show that if you wanted something you took up arms, so they killed all the merchants involved in this uprising. If you are talking about another clan, I would let them the honor of defend themselves.

(For those that get upset about RPing, I guess you could call it RP, but I am always a Smoke Jaguar so to me it is not real RP, hell I use clanspeak so much in RL that my friends and family either understand me or answer in kind)

[Dihm]

The clans DID wipe out the Wolverine civilians too, just sayin'.

Quote

For the next two months, the Wolf force systematically destroyed the Wolverines' holdings, demolishing buildings and forcibly sterilizing their civilian castes. All sibkos containing Wolverine genes were terminated according to an edict passed by Nicholas Kerensky. This went even so far, that in January 2839 more than 100 Ghost Bear Warriors - and at that time it was not a small part of the whole Ghost Bear touman- with their genes tainted by an isorla Wolverine geneticist with Wolverine DNA were forced by Khan Hans Jorgensson to commit suicide.

[Thorn Hallis]

Amarus Cameron, on 09 January 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

If you speaking of Londerholm that is because the merchants wanted to be able to have unrestricted trading (which included what were considered dishonorable methods) and when told no they with held food shipments and took up arms to enforce this embargo. CSJ did not want to set a precedent to show that if you wanted something you took up arms, so they killed all the merchants involved in this uprising. If you are talking about another clan, I would let them the honor of defend themselves.

(For those that get upset about RPing, I guess you could call it RP, but I am always a Smoke Jaguar so to me it is not real RP, hell I use clanspeak so much in RL that my friends and family either understand me or answer in kind)

Uhm...after a mysterious blight struck virtually the entire crop on Londerholm, the merchants petitioned the Clan Council to allow them to keep back a third of the foodstuffs slated for export - the minimum they considered necessary to feed the local population at a substience level until the following year's harvest. The Clan Council refused, and chided the laborers for presuming to suggest that the Clan's noble warrior give up any part of their caste's right for the convenience of mere laborers. Thats what led to the seizing of a food transport by desperate locals and the brutal response of Khan Ian Moon, which was followed by open rebelions on most Jaguar worlds and even more brutal responses.

[William White]

It seems the clanners are forgetting some very important details - look boys and girls of the clans you are imperfect as the rest of us so stop trying to take the moral high ground and start slumming it with the rest us mere mortals!!!!!!!