950 replies to this topic

[Just wanna play]

just using it as an example, some say the t-rex (which is bipedal) used a similar style of walking because it was so heavy

[Melcyna]

with entirely opposite leg structure at that... and with maximum speed unknown (we've debated on how fast exactly a T-rex can travel on land for ages in the scientific community, studying it's estimated muscle mass and food diet), i also want to know who mentioned that they use similar gait as it should be painfully obvious that bipedal and quadruped has drastically different gait and i can't remember if someone ever made this point, i would be interested to see if this is true and what his arguments for this is since there's a long explanation to be made for someone to compare a biped gait with a quadruped.

bipedal like all things with limbs exert ground pressure VERY heavily dependent on how fast it moves... aside of it's mass and feet surface area and gait.

as i note above with the rough estimation, when the Atlas stands perfectly still like a statue... it's ground pressure is just a tad above a modern tank with the BT super light weight stat.

the question is how it will handle when it MOVES, and particularly when this speed goes faster beyond slow walk... since as the speed increases, the pressure the leg exerts rapidly shoots up.

whichever method it uses to alleviate this, it cannot avoid a simple fact: for any sort of real movement a bipedal by virtue of having only 2 legs is guaranteed to at least double it's ground pressure if it wants to do so for practical distance and time, and it can only go up from here as the speed increases.

Edited by Melcyna, 02 May 2013 - 08:51 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 02 May 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

with entirely opposite leg structure at that... and with maximum speed unknown (we've debated on how fast exactly a T-rex can travel on land for ages in the scientific community, studying it's estimated muscle mass and food diet), i also want to know who mentioned that they use similar gait as it should be painfully obvious that bipedal and quadruped has drastically different gait and i can't remember if someone ever made this point, i would be interested to see if this is true and what his arguments for this is since there's a long explanation to be made for someone to compare a biped gait with a quadruped.

bipedal like all things with limbs exert ground pressure VERY heavily dependent on how fast it moves... aside of it's mass and feet surface area and gait.

as i note above with the rough estimation, when the Atlas stands perfectly still like a statue... it's ground pressure is just a tad above a modern tank with the BT super light weight stat.

the question is how it will handle when it MOVES, and particularly when this speed goes faster beyond slow walk... since as the speed increases, the pressure the leg exerts rapidly shoots up.

whichever method it uses to alleviate this, it cannot avoid a simple fact: for any sort of real movement a bipedal by virtue of having only 2 legs is guaranteed to at least double it's ground pressure if it wants to do so for practical distance and time, and it can only go up from here as the speed increases.

idk where i saw it but i think they said that a t-rex might keep its legs straight while running, maybe it was on the science channel or on animal planet one day

lol imagine the ground pressure if an atlas tries to skip on one leg XD

[Just wanna play]

i found a page from national geographic talking about nerves causing the gait that also hinted to others finding similarities in the physical structure causing a similar walk compared to elephants, but the page froze :/

ah
http://news.national...rves-elephants/

and the computers in those atlases probably arent very fast themselves...

[Melcyna]

Ah, i see where the confusion came from

the article is basically discussing that based on their size, and the speed of the nerve information transmission and the size of the nerve required for effective movement that T-rex probably plodded along at slow pace like an elephant

in another word, the comparison between elephant and T-rex there made by the article is in the context of how the large animals nerve system that regulates their movement and their size likely limit their effective speed to a slow pace, not about the two using the same gait (which wouldn't make sense)

Within our context of battlemech, the same restriction applies

in order to apply the same gait pattern, the battlemech essentially need legs built with the same structure and pattern, even 2 bipedal will have 2 different optimal gait if their leg structures and overall profile are different.

and naturally, do not expect bipedal gait to work on quadruped, or vice versa..

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 04 May 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

Ah, i see where the confusion came from

the article is basically discussing that based on their size, and the speed of the nerve information transmission and the size of the nerve required for effective movement that T-rex probably plodded along at slow pace like an elephant

in another word, the comparison between elephant and T-rex there made by the article is in the context of how the large animals nerve system that regulates their movement and their size likely limit their effective speed to a slow pace, not about the two using the same gait (which wouldn't make sense)

Within our context of battlemech, the same restriction applies

in order to apply the same gait pattern, the battlemech essentially need legs built with the same structure and pattern, even 2 bipedal will have 2 different optimal gait if their leg structures and overall profile are different.

and naturally, do not expect bipedal gait to work on quadruped, or vice versa..

even though, as stated in article, there are findings saying the similar gaits are also caused by its leg structure, just cant find those articles (they could have linked it)

[Melcyna]

That article didn't mention anything about their gait similarities (or gait at all for that matter), but if you think they mention or imply anything regarding gait quote it here so we can dissect it.

in order for something to have similar gait with another, they essentially have to be walking in similar pattern for their body and limbs which would be highly improbable if they do not have the physical similarities and construction.

gait does not mean something as simple as a general 'it walks forward'
gait is a much more detailed pattern that includes the sequence of the legs movement, the foot fall, and how it is cycled back into a continuous motion that propels the being.

ie: the entire set that makes up the movement motion of the legged being locomotion process, and hence why it makes no sense for the two being in question (T-rex and elephant) to have similar gait unless if they specify accurately in what context they have similarities, in that article at least they didn't mention it at all... instead they mentioned that both most likely travel at similar pace in general.

This applies to the Battlemechs as well naturally, realistically there's no way for a battlemech to emulate a gait of any specific animal or creature effectively unless if it's leg and limbs are designed with similar construction pattern in mind. You don't simply use another being's gait when your leg is not even constructed with any remotely similar principle, and just because they are both biped or quadruped doesn't mean they can interchange gait either (material may differ, but functionality wise it has to at least be able to do the vital parts of that gait sequence)

If efficiency is not a concern and we just want to emulate the gait at least visually, energy efficiency and stress be damned... we might be able to bend the limit somewhat with modern tech to an extent

But don't expect them to be any good... there's a price for everything, including that.

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 04 May 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

That article didn't mention anything about their gait similarities (or gait at all for that matter), but if you think they mention or imply anything regarding gait quote it here so we can dissect it.

in order for something to have similar gait with another, they essentially have to be walking in similar pattern for their body and limbs which would be highly improbable if they do not have the physical similarities and construction.

gait does not mean something as simple as a general 'it walks forward'
gait is a much more detailed pattern that includes the sequence of the legs movement, the foot fall, and how it is cycled back into a continuous motion that propels the being.

ie: the entire set that makes up the movement motion of the legged being locomotion process, and hence why it makes no sense for the two being in question (T-rex and elephant) to have similar gait unless if they specify accurately in what context they have similarities, in that article at least they didn't mention it at all... instead they mentioned that both most likely travel at similar pace in general.

This applies to the Battlemechs as well naturally, realistically there's no way for a battlemech to emulate a gait of any specific animal or creature effectively unless if it's leg and limbs are designed with similar construction pattern in mind. You don't simply use another being's gait when your leg is not even constructed with any remotely similar principle, and just because they are both biped or quadruped doesn't mean they can interchange gait either (material may differ, but functionality wise it has to at least be able to do the vital parts of that gait sequence)

If efficiency is not a concern and we just want to emulate the gait at least visually, energy efficiency and stress be damned... we might be able to bend the limit somewhat with modern tech to an extent

But don't expect them to be any good... there's a price for everything, including that.

come on man did you even read it? look at the 13th paragraph

"The idea that T. rex lumbered like an elephant fits with other studies of the dinosaur's body, including one paper that found that T. rex's leg muscles would have to have been heftier than its whole body weight for the dinosaur to have been a speed demon."
now to find the studies it is referring.....

[Melcyna]

in another word, it suggests that a T-rex moved at similar pace as an elephant would

it does not suggests they use the same gait or even similar gait for that matter at all

you could move at the same pace as the slowest animal on earth, but unless that animal has similar leg structure as you do it's IMPOSSIBLE in all likelihood for you to have the same gait as it does and vice versa.

there's a reason why any reliable paper uses the word carefully, gait has a meaning and a defined scope... and this the reason why there's an entire scientific study focused on gaits of living beings, and in robotics as well.

They did not use the word there precisely because that is not what they are implying at all.

Edited by Melcyna, 04 May 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[Just wanna play]

they just said it lumbered like an elephant, a lumbering motion is caused by a type of walk!

and noticed how i said a similar style of walking in the first place, not walking in exactly the same way

[Just wanna play]

Dang, i just realized a T-rex only weighs 9 tons fully grown kinda light compared to the many things we have in this modern, metal and concrete made world

[Melcyna]

the word lumbered doesn't even refer to the walk style

hence why the word lumbered can be used on things with no legs to begin with, when they say 'the tank lumbered into action', they didn't imply the tanks have legs, the implied the pace in which it moved...

if you ask for example why does A does not use walking motion like B, you are essentially asking why A does not use the gait of B because that is what gait is or rather a subset of it, ie: the pattern and sequence of motion that a being does with their body particularly their legs in order to perform locomotion, including walking motion

The entire process of walking for any legged being is in fact very complex and difficult, hence why gait and the study for it is defined and performed.

[Just wanna play]

but an elephant isn't slow, have you ever seen those ******** stampede? they pretty much say, due to theiers size, trexs would have had to run like an elephant stampeding to move at high speeds, or not do it at all, all i was saying at the begging was atlas, due to weighing so much, should use a similar straight legged waddle, OBVIOUSLY NOT EXACTLY THE SAME, to be able to run at high speeds
LOL i just realized this might just be the most pointless conversation on this forum XD, adding a sprint button to an atals.....

[Melcyna]

We can argue whether they are slow or not separately, i am only stating that what you refer to in the article statement has in fact no bearing on their gait or even the walking motion, if you want to argue that the elephant stampede (which is still pretty damn slow technically for a quadruped) is fast... you can ask the article writer.

So... coming back to the matter,

similar straight legged waddle, in another word... similar leg motion, which is? yep... part of the gait

in which case we'd ask, does an Atlas have a leg capable of the range of motion required for such pattern? Does the gait pattern makes sense when applied to bipedal? try it... our leg isn't like an Atlas obviously, but our legs do have better range of motion than theoretical Atlas, so if ours can't do it effectively, then forget an Atlas. Now ask ourselves, can we walk like that?

If we can, what does it achieve? Does it give any benefit to us? Does it give a benefit to the theoretical Atlas? Does the benefit makes sense?

For the elephant, they perform the gait because they DON'T HAVE any real option to achieve the speed in the first place, their size and mass effectively makes normal quadruped gait at high speed self destructive for them. The previous article you linked noted themselves that the gait is very inefficient energy wise, but it's more or less the only real option for them.

So for a bipedal like an Atlas, and pretending that the gait is applicable to bipedal ... somehow...
is that the Atlas problem? Does an Atlas problem to run quickly caused by the same problem that an elephant would have?

ie: if the Atlas has excess energy and the leg stress is the main limiting factor for it to run, then sure... assuming the gait is somehow convertible to bipedal, it may have a use yeah... but if energy is the limiting factor, or heat (the 2 more or less goes hand in hand) then the gait is the opposite of a solution.

incidentally we already have a sprint button for any mech including Atlas, ie: MASC, though granted the risk is significant.

Edited by Melcyna, 04 May 2013 - 08:38 PM.

[Just wanna play]

whats masc?

[Just wanna play]

is it in mwo or is it from another mech warrior?

[Melcyna]

it's from battletech itself

some mechwarrior games implement it, some don't depending on which iteration (unlike say console battletech games, most other mechwarrior games usually don't invent something that don't exist in battletech though there are exceptions)

either way, it's pretty much what it is... an extra equipment to give your battlemech the ability to boost it's top speed at the expense of something (in tabletop that expense comes at the risk of total myomer failure ie: you become immobilized if you failed the saving roll, and the saving roll becomes more and more difficult the longer MASC remain active, in mechwarrior games usually MASC simply generates massive amount of heat as long as it is active, in either case it basically means ppl use MASC for short burst of speed, hence it's a sprint...)

MWO probably will have it... eventually, since they stated they wanted to implement most things that are well known in battletech materials and MASC definitely one of them.

Either way though, that basically indicates that leg structure stress is not really a limiting factor on battlemech speed... not to mention that equipping massive engine translates to more speed anyway, which suggests that energy output limitation is the main bottleneck on how fast the mech can run, in which case even if somehow we can translate elephant's gait to bipedal Atlas... it wouldn't help it, something with more energy efficient gait would make sense... but not less.

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 05 May 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

it's from battletech itself

some mechwarrior games implement it, some don't depending on which iteration (unlike say console battletech games, most other mechwarrior games usually don't invent something that don't exist in battletech though there are exceptions)

either way, it's pretty much what it is... an extra equipment to give your battlemech the ability to boost it's top speed at the expense of something (in tabletop that expense comes at the risk of total myomer failure ie: you become immobilized if you failed the saving roll, and the saving roll becomes more and more difficult the longer MASC remain active, in mechwarrior games usually MASC simply generates massive amount of heat as long as it is active, in either case it basically means ppl use MASC for short burst of speed, hence it's a sprint...)

MWO probably will have it... eventually, since they stated they wanted to implement most things that are well known in battletech materials and MASC definitely one of them.

Either way though, that basically indicates that leg structure stress is not really a limiting factor on battlemech speed... not to mention that equipping massive engine translates to more speed anyway, which suggests that energy output limitation is the main bottleneck on how fast the mech can run, in which case even if somehow we can translate elephant's gait to bipedal Atlas... it wouldn't help it, something with more energy efficient gait would make sense... but not less.

well sure bigger engines make them run faster, but that raises the question on why exactly are engine sizes restricted to what what they are based on how powerful the stock engine is? the faster mechs with bigger engines are allowed to put in bigger engines then other mechs of the same chassis, but different variant (look at deaths knell vs other commandos, its the fastest by quite a bit) possibly signalling higher grade components relating to movement in those mechs (or just good ol balancing taking place) allowing bigger engines

[Melcyna]

If we pretend to try to justify it in BT sense, it's pretty simple.. each engine technically has X amount of weight, logically this means that they should occupy certain amount of space which we can probably assume will increase in space to certain extent with the higher weight engine occupying more space, at least within the same class anyway (XL being a different story)

if so, we can just pretend that the mech have limited space within the engine compartment, and however high it can go in engine rating depends on how much weight it can handle and how much space the engine compartment itself can accommodate, naturally with each mech variant likely having different limit.

BT never really thought that far as far as i know or explain it properly, but from logical point of view and following how it is with our own vehicles (including tanks) that's the easiest explanation though it's not complete... BT has anomalies of it's own that makes this explanation also flawed (partly caused by the fact that it's a legged machine)

For the most part? in MWO at least, the mechs differing engine limit etc are nothing more than effort to give diversity and help balance the mech variants.

the basic problem with the mechs ultimately is that some variants have more value than others or simply more attractive due to their hardpoint mixture etc...

which unfortunately means ppl tend to just flock to them, and ignore the rest... because let's face it, that's what EVERYONE does in any sort of competitive game. So to help balance it out they tried giving the mechs slight tweak to give better incentive to some variants or reduce excessive usage of specific models.

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 05 May 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

which unfortunately means ppl tend to just flock to them, and ignore the rest... because let's face it, that's what EVERYONE does in any sort of competitive game. So to help balance it out they tried giving the mechs slight tweak to give better incentive to some variants or reduce excessive usage of specific models.

if only they did that for the atlas k............