950 replies to this topic

[Just wanna play]

and lol like someone else said, these things are pretty stealthy for giant lumps of metal being powered by fusion reactors, lol one guy pointed out how an atlas can hide behind a building



also just want to say that the usual way that dps is calculated rarely ever makes a difference in game since its a very in accurate measurement not taking into account real worlds values and effects (ex.. large laser does "2.12 dps" but in 4seconds i will get 18 damage done so it doesnt really properly take into account burst damasge) for ex, mgs do 1.6dps right? but it does it EVERY SECOND small laserz do 1dps, but it has to wait 3 second after shooting to do its next 3 points of damage, so mgs arent always inferior, i want you to think of it this way

if the small laser fires and misses, you willl do 3 damage after 3 more seconds has passed

if the mg misses, you will be do .36 damage for the rest of the second, then .4 damage for the next 2 seconds until small laser is ready to fire

so small laser does 3 damage once 3 seconds has passed, mg has done .36 after first second, then .76 in the 2nd second, the has done in total 1.14 damage once the small laser fires again, which would have done 3 damage by that time, so 4 mgs would have done 4.56 in those 3 seconds, which is even better then a medium if the first shot misses (and it probably did at light speeds) (and small laser would be useless after recharging until target is in sight again, mg is always ready to use and would have been doing damage after target has left)
now imagine if less then 3 damage is needed to finish the other mech, what do you think will kill the other light first, wait ??
if part of the beam misses its the same effect, just to a lesser extent

and back to saying dps rating is useless, using a more high alpha low fire rate, high burst weapon, in 5 seconds an ac/20 will do 40 damage, because it fires once doing 20dmg THEN waits 5 seconds to fire again, doing 40 damage total, while its dps rating would suggest it would do 25 damage in 5 seconds, those are simpler examples since they are extremely biased weapons when it comes to firepower or fire rate

did i mention mgs create no heat??

[Just wanna play]

and let me explain that 1.4 vs 3 damage a bit more, ballistics are far better at focusing damage which imo makes them better, hence why i think small pulse laserz>medium laser(you will do less damage in the match but you will be more effect at killing people)
i was mainly using that to disprove your point about small laser being barely weaker then mgs (difference is also more noticeable after you have been fighting the person for a awhile and cant just get a fresh shot off the moment you want, not just when the first shot misses)

and you have to keep the beams on target for those 3 damage points, with mgs you dont have to be as pin point since you get a chance at aim redemption every tenth of a second

damage done is not a stat to use in a debate ever

AND THEY SOUND SWEET!!!!!!

[Just wanna play]

my god, 2 mgs are STRONGER then an lrm5 dps wise for the same tonnage (and no heat) they really need to buf those things

[RenegadeMaster]

All of this is why Garth wishes PGI would stand up a test server that goes exclusively off of Canon BT rules - So people could see that it doesn't translate very well to realtime combat

[Just wanna play]

garth?

[Melcyna]

Just wanna play, on 09 May 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

sure the ecm team might win, still you cant prove its BECAUSE they had ecm, both sides have at least 1 light with ecm usually, but those often die pretty fast

dude when explaining the large laserz efficiency, aside from the range advantage that i never talked about considering the laser was an example and its only with energy weapon when bigger weapon means bettter range, YOU PROVED MY POINT, ll (and bigger weapons in particular)are only best when want to get the most out of each hard point (of course bigger guns are more hard point efficient) and have the tonnage to spare, aside from energy weapon range differences, 2 slightly smaller weapons are always better then 1 bigger one
2 medium>1large
2 ac/10>ac/20
2 lrm 5>lrm10

well if your in a light dont expect yourself to be the one stripping the armor,dude you must suck with mgs, koniving has a screen pic of round where he did 400 dmg with 4 mgs and 4 flamers (those dont stack though so....) keep in mind against internals it does 7dps (once destroying an engine kills a mech, you will change your mind about destroying the body part being faster then destroying internal equipment, at least on bigger mechs), and that REALLY contributes to your total damage done at the end of a match if you play it right, i also have personally done 170dmg in a match with the trial raven using only 2 mgs, stalker with out leg armor and clearly keeping lrm ammo in legs =

and of course smaller weapons will do less damage per bullet, its all about what the bullet does its damage to, not how much it does (why else would things like small pulse laserz exist, THEY ROCK!)

and its 1.6 dps with out heat so.................

Uhmmm ur mistaken...
MG dps is not 1.6...

that's 4 MG... FOUR MG, firing simultaneously spitting 40 bullets per second (10 each) and assuming it all hits... that it will do 1.6 dps. (in practice ppl have also tested and measured that it doesn't even fire these 10 bullets per second from the MG correctly because there is discrepancy between the theoretical rate of fire, and ammo depletion time which doesn't match properly) MG has 0.4 dps EACH at maximum (practical dps lower than that)... against anything with any shred of armor, the thing essentially does no better than banging your head against the wall unless if he is AFK, and even if he is AFK, you are far better served with any other weapon short of a flamer which is equally bad as the MG.

and to correct another thing, 2 AC/10 is not superior to 1 AC20 efficiency wise since 2 AC/10 is 24 ton versus 14 of 1 AC/20 and occupies more crit slot as well in total, but can be spread across ballistic hardpoints... it is however superior damage output wise and in effective range but 24 ton is a lot of ton.

similarly with AC/5, twin AC/5 is 16 ton which is 4 tons more than 1 AC/10 but does have better total dps and more effective range than a single AC/10 etc...

I mean no offense, but everyone who have used MG and have tried to get them to work properly in game can instantly dispel all your misconception of the MG, i am somewhat surprised you didn't know them... i mean surely you have tried to use them against armor to know they do damage to it... but in miniscule amount.

To clarify another thing,

Spoiler

every weapon technically has the same chance at defeating the saving roll when they struck an unarmored section which is at 42% chance.

what MG gets (similar to flamer and LBX which are also weapons no one uses because frankly they are simply not worth it) is an increased chance to do multi hit crit once it actually defeats the saving roll and the damage is significantly buffed for this purpose (since otherwise even on multi hit crit the MG bullet does very little damage).

in practice this basically means that once a section is stripped of armor, most weapons will destroy whatever is underneath it if not take that part out altogether anyway (since structure HP is fairly small at only half the armor).... hence why gauss and AC/20 often seems to take something out the moment they breach the armor (aside of them being very good at destroying the internals HP outright with their alpha, they both also happen to do more damage than most internal components have health and thus virtually assured to obliterate a component if it fails the saving throw)

only problem of course is that MG can't really do ANYTHING but chipping at the internal equipment, which pose a trouble...

if other weapons are far superior in effectiveness against the armor and can still crit and destroy the parts underneath it with significant chance... then why on earth would one use MG unless if you ABSOLUTELY had no other choice?

well you don't really... hence why NO ONE seriously used them (unless you are like some of us who despite knowing their inherent disadvantage still attempts to use it anyway, and there are some of us who do that since we do love the sound and effect of MG), the spider 5K with 4MG is the sad part since ppl trying to elite spider inevitably had to use it and there's not much option to stick on it.

And i am surprised you'd want to use alpha as an argument to dispute dps rating as well because this helps the high alpha guns, NOT MG which is the opposite being one of the weapon with the lowest alpha in the game, if anything using alpha as an argument makes MG in even worse position than it is.

similarly, the argument that ballistic can focus their fire better is valid for other ballistic weapons that ACTUALLY FOCUS their fire... (except LBX10 hence why no one uses it) but NOT MG, where the damage output are not only spread across very tiny damage per bullets but also HOSED across the spread cone instead of a pin point accurate shell like other ballistic weapon... you literally cannot focus the fire at all with MG except by kissing the target mech... that 0.4 dps per MG??? is now spread across all over the target cone so unless you are so close you can literally crash into him, each section you fired will have even less dps per MG applied and less bullets actually hitting it and doing potential crit.

Laser literally can focus their fire and thus effective damage better than MG since while it spreads this damage across the beam duration, it is at least PIN POINT, not spread across a firing cone.

Hence why i mentioned LL before because contrary to your argument that it does less efficient damage per ton than other laser, it actually has a use since it outperform ML naturally beyond 400m where even 4ML fired simultaneously can't do the damage output of a single LL, and it has a higher alpha per weapon.

incidentally someone managed to get 400dmg with 4 MG and 4 Flamer?

good for him, but think about it... 400dmg is first of all decent for most weapons... but 400dmg with 4MG and 4flamer? that's 4ballistic and 4energy hardpoint for just 400dmg, unless you are saying he did it with 4MG and 4Flamer separately. if those were say half done with MG, he has fired and hit with over 5000 bullets... so 3 tons of ammo all expended assuming he hit with at least 80% of them.

if he did it with just 4MG or just 4Flamer (my salute to him) then he has fired at least 10000 bullets with the MG and hitting with all of them (absolutely no missing, any miss means he needs more ammo) equating to 5 tons of ammo assuming no miss.

you know what fits into 4energy slot and does 400dmg per match EASY and can reach over a thousand by really good pilots?

4 ML that's it... no other weapon... and unlike the rest, 4 ML slice and dice armor, or the internals or the components underneath (once the armor is stripped, do not expect anything underneath it to survive long either when hit by 4 ML for reason i already explained above which you probably already notice in game)

Once the engine critical actually DO SOMETHING? sure... maybe the MG will be worth something... then... maybe...

But until then, it's as it is... not worth the weight and slot combat wise except for pure fondness factor.

Edited by Melcyna, 10 May 2013 - 12:51 AM.

[Nmementh]

I just randomly thought of this:
Pixie dust is an integral component of battletech "armor"... (scroll down for pixie dust)

If you consider all the rules and fluff concerning the armor in BT lore you can think of it as military grade vinyl wrap, where a point of armor doesn't indicate a thickness so much as a layer of this wrap. Taking a hit from a laser doesn't put a laser shape hole in the armor but causes the entire layer(s) to "fall off" that section.
Each layor of wrap can also be broken down into 4 layers: (outer to inner)
Paint, you take a hit and the armor layer falls off but the paint scheme stays, therefore each individual layer must be painted separately and this is why painting a mech is so expensive in the 31st century...
Anti-penatration layer, the fluff of the mackie test describes the old (modern) tank cannons barely scratching the paint therefore the first layer of the armor must be designed for balistics as the anti-thermal would have been damaged causing the loss of an armor layer. This layer works in the same way as normal (or maybe WWII) tank armor atempting to stop/deflect incoming rounds, if it fails then the armor absorbs the impact energy by spreading it across the whole section (again you lose layers to AC/Guass rather than gaining holes) and falling off. This happens to each successive layer until the round looses enough energy to be stopped like the old Merkava tank rounds.
Anti-thermal layer, like the previous layer but absorbs thermal energy rather than kinetic energy although this time it has to absorb enough energy to stop the beam or particle cannon from burning through the next AP layer. This also means that while both the AC/10 and the PPC have the same damage rating they may have completely different energy outputs, a modern tank round may be stopped cold by the first AP layer but how much concentrated thermal engery could it take? Even if the weapon couldn't burn through the fist layer of AT underneath the entire layer of armor would still be lost...
Substrate, binds one layer of armor to the next given the way that melee and fall damage works probably operates on vibrational resonace, the loss of the AP or AT layer causes a vibration which is absorbed by and gives this layer the cohesive properties of dust. Physical attacks (including fall damage) do not damage the AP or AT layers but affect the substrate directely, could a fusion powered sound system therefore strip mech armor in seconds?..

So where does the pixie dust come in to this?
1 ton of this armor wrap provides enough material to create 16 layers (32 in MWO) on the rather large arm of a atlas, yet creating 16 layers of armor on the much smaller commando's arm yields no spare material (and therefore wieght) one size fits all indeed.
Also cockpits are transparent for upto 9 (18) layors of armor so light energy can easily penatrate, yet you do not go blind or even get so much as a sun tan when tagged with a large laser (okay you lose 1 out of 5 pilot hit points but not the same). Pixie dust+reactive sunglasses = ferro-glass o.0

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 09 May 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

And i am surprised you'd want to use alpha as an argument to dispute dps rating as well because this helps the high alpha guns, NOT MG which is the opposite being one of the weapon with the lowest alpha in the game, if anything using alpha as an argument makes MG in even worse position than it is.

that was me saying (and backing my self up) that dps ratings are useless and really shouldn't be used to judge a weapon imo, i never talked about alpha or anything directly being an advantage of mgs (although for some reason my phract 4x, when i was testing 4 mgs out, had a firepower rating of 8... equal to 4 ac2s, probably glitch)

is english actually your native language?

dang it lost most of the stuff i typed already......

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 09 May 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Uhmmm ur mistaken...
MG dps is not 1.6...

that's 4 MG... FOUR MG, firing simultaneously spitting 40 bullets per second (10 each) and assuming it all hits... that it will do 1.6 dps. (in practice ppl have also tested and measured that it doesn't even fire these 10 bullets per second from the MG correctly because there is discrepancy between the theoretical rate of fire, and ammo depletion time which doesn't match properly) MG has 0.4 dps EACH at maximum (practical dps lower than that)... against anything with any shred of armor, the thing essentially does no better than banging your head against the wall unless if he is AFK, and even if he is AFK, you are far better served with any other weapon short of a flamer which is equally bad as the MG.

and to correct another thing, 2 AC/10 is not superior to 1 AC20 efficiency wise since 2 AC/10 is 24 ton versus 14 of 1 AC/20 and occupies more crit slot as well in total, but can be spread across ballistic hardpoints... it is however superior damage output wise and in effective range but 24 ton is a lot of ton.

similarly with AC/5, twin AC/5 is 16 ton which is 4 tons more than 1 AC/10 but does have better total dps and more effective range than a single AC/10 etc...

I mean no offense, but everyone who have used MG and have tried to get them to work properly in game can instantly dispel all your misconception of the MG, i am somewhat surprised you didn't know them... i mean surely you have tried to use them against armor to know they do damage to it... but in miniscule amount.

To clarify another thing,

Spoiler

every weapon technically has the same chance at defeating the saving roll when they struck an unarmored section which is at 42% chance.

what MG gets (similar to flamer and LBX which are also weapons no one uses because frankly they are simply not worth it) is an increased chance to do multi hit crit once it actually defeats the saving roll and the damage is significantly buffed for this purpose (since otherwise even on multi hit crit the MG bullet does very little damage).

in practice this basically means that once a section is stripped of armor, most weapons will destroy whatever is underneath it if not take that part out altogether anyway (since structure HP is fairly small at only half the armor).... hence why gauss and AC/20 often seems to take something out the moment they breach the armor (aside of them being very good at destroying the internals HP outright with their alpha, they both also happen to do more damage than most internal components have health and thus virtually assured to obliterate a component if it fails the saving throw)

only problem of course is that MG can't really do ANYTHING but chipping at the internal equipment, which pose a trouble...

if other weapons are far superior in effectiveness against the armor and can still crit and destroy the parts underneath it with significant chance... then why on earth would one use MG unless if you ABSOLUTELY had no other choice?

well you don't really... hence why NO ONE seriously used them (unless you are like some of us who despite knowing their inherent disadvantage still attempts to use it anyway, and there are some of us who do that since we do love the sound and effect of MG), the spider 5K with 4MG is the sad part since ppl trying to elite spider inevitably had to use it and there's not much option to stick on it.

And i am surprised you'd want to use alpha as an argument to dispute dps rating as well because this helps the high alpha guns, NOT MG which is the opposite being one of the weapon with the lowest alpha in the game, if anything using alpha as an argument makes MG in even worse position than it is.

similarly, the argument that ballistic can focus their fire better is valid for other ballistic weapons that ACTUALLY FOCUS their fire... (except LBX10 hence why no one uses it) but NOT MG, where the damage output are not only spread across very tiny damage per bullets but also HOSED across the spread cone instead of a pin point accurate shell like other ballistic weapon... you literally cannot focus the fire at all with MG except by kissing the target mech... that 0.4 dps per MG??? is now spread across all over the target cone so unless you are so close you can literally crash into him, each section you fired will have even less dps per MG applied and less bullets actually hitting it and doing potential crit.

Laser literally can focus their fire and thus effective damage better than MG since while it spreads this damage across the beam duration, it is at least PIN POINT, not spread across a firing cone.

Hence why i mentioned LL before because contrary to your argument that it does less efficient damage per ton than other laser, it actually has a use since it outperform ML naturally beyond 400m where even 4ML fired simultaneously can't do the damage output of a single LL, and it has a higher alpha per weapon.

incidentally someone managed to get 400dmg with 4 MG and 4 Flamer?

good for him, but think about it... 400dmg is first of all decent for most weapons... but 400dmg with 4MG and 4flamer? that's 4ballistic and 4energy hardpoint for just 400dmg, unless you are saying he did it with 4MG and 4Flamer separately. if those were say half done with MG, he has fired and hit with over 5000 bullets... so 3 tons of ammo all expended assuming he hit with at least 80% of them.

if he did it with just 4MG or just 4Flamer (my salute to him) then he has fired at least 10000 bullets with the MG and hitting with all of them (absolutely no missing, any miss means he needs more ammo) equating to 5 tons of ammo assuming no miss.

you know what fits into 4energy slot and does 400dmg per match EASY and can reach over a thousand by really good pilots?

4 ML that's it... no other weapon... and unlike the rest, 4 ML slice and dice armor, or the internals or the components underneath (once the armor is stripped, do not expect anything underneath it to survive long either when hit by 4 ML for reason i already explained above which you probably already notice in game)

Once the engine critical actually DO SOMETHING? sure... maybe the MG will be worth something... then... maybe...

But until then, it's as it is... not worth the weight and slot combat wise except for pure fondness factor.

again, dude i was talking about 4 mgs in the first place


and about the tonnage thing, LIKE I SAID ALREADY, damage wise 2 somewhat smaller weapons> 1 bigger weapon, DUE TO DIFFERENCES IN WEAPON TYPES I DIDNT SAY IN EVERY WAY IN EVERY CASE, i already pointed this out with 1 large laser range and heat advantages (notice how i didnt say they where more eff for their tonnage in every case directly, each weapon type has issues whit making lots of smaller ones that effective, with energy its range being the problem, ballistic being tonnage, and missile being ammo, not many issues with those though, just hard point limitations) you still haven't dis proven what i already said, just proven you didn't read it very well

and mgs are very cheap for what they give you, ya dont even need to use double heat sinks
lbxs are used for brawling, when in their proper use hey are much better then ac/10s, you just have to close in
flamer negates the cooling effect of 14 double heat sinks, i wouldn't call that useless.....

cant remember what else i said that didnt get posted...

[Melcyna]

it is my native language yes, why do i mention alpha? because that's what you are referring to when you considered that some weapons possess an initial damage advantage at the start of the engagement with their first salvo...

that is what's alpha damage advantage is in every game involving discrete damage revolves around...

and you were correct in that alpha advantage is another factor to be considered aside of DPS, but it doesn't help the argument against MG at all because alpha advantage always favor the high alpha damage

so a weapon with high alpha and low DPS for example is arguable against low alpha high DPS weapon etc... but a weapon with low alpha and low DPS is to put it plainly.... worthless as far as direct combat is concerned, so unfortunately arguing that the DPS is inaccurate etc because we have to consider weapon's initial damage or what not does not matter in the case of MG since MG has crap DPS and crap alpha... it is simply bad in every angle for direct combat.

4MG equating to 4ballistic hardpoints taken, and 2 ton of ammo say (gives you about just over a minute of sustained fire) is already 4 tons of weight... (this incidentally equates to 160 points of maximum possible damage assuming you do not miss at all, not even one out of all fired in the cone of fire and fired all of them until depleted in over a minute)... the MG itself may be 0.5ton each, but the ammo is still 1 ton each.

which sadly doesn't do much at all given they do not do any effective result worth noticing until the armor is breached, upon which it in theory should mince the equipment (it doesn't do sufficient damage to internal structures either incidentally the only thing it does good damage on is the equipment and weapon and that's it, you are FAR better served with any other weapon than MGs for that)

this would be fine and dandy if every other weapons doesn't already start with fairly decent chance of knocking things out in the first place... like i said, EVERY WEAPON has the same chance to defeat the saving roll once they hit the sections that have been stripped of armor... no difference whatsoever as long as it does damage (TAG obviously doesn't do anything there), hence why direct hits from say 2ML on an unarmored section already has a reasonable chance of knocking equipments... 4ML better still. In another word, the MG's good equipment (not internal structure, but equipment) destroying potential would perhaps mean something if other weapons aren't already doing a pretty good job at it against exposed sections.

Incidentally, LBX? they are inferior to AC/10 for obvious reasons... the only way they basically have any chance to focus the pellets into one armored section of a mech is to close the distance to less than 100m, and even then on most mechs shots directed to any one section still likely spread across 2 or 3 sections (usually arm, side torso, CT or leg, side torso, arm) rendering them very ineffective overall at doing what they are supposed to be good at... ie: mincing the equipment underneath since they are to put it simply inferior to AC/10 at actually breaching the armor to reach it.

Then you breach the armor... and while the LBX/10 may mince the equipment underneath it... the AC/10 has a decent chance as well at doing the same thing and a much better chance of actually decapitating the part clean off with it's focused damage.

no seriously, there is a reason why those of us who have been using AC/10 setup have tried LBX as well repeatedly (especially after patch) and abandoned it from the main build... just like MG and flamer.

Edited by Melcyna, 10 May 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Just wanna play]

still never said anything about mgs being good damage dealers, you just magically thought i was saying they where

and 160 possible damage is only if you use them for what they arent made for

lol and did i mention at close range 2 mgs are stronger then an lrm5 at lon range with 1 ton of ammo each, same weight, and no heat, XD lrms need a serious buff

[Just wanna play]

and about the lbxs, sure they are "inferior" focused damage wise, but what about the weight tonnage? dont ya think getting bigger weapons else where will compensate for 2-3 less damage?? my 4x phract gets to replce its 2 medium laserz with 2 medium pulses, giving it better alpha more dps and more accurate damage, not to mention the same exact amount of heat (lbx are all around better then ac10s once in range)

and you are only listing your opinion on lbxs, not facts, and with 33% spread reduction coming up, im then i wont use another ac anything else ever again

[Melcyna]

If only it was 2-3 less damage, the LBX spread makes them utterly worthless at actually doing any effective damage beyond very short range which is all fine and good if it's extra awesome at close range...

which is the problem... they aint, their close combat potential does not even come close to compensating for their impotence at beyond knife fight range, it's singular real advantage is that it has a better chance of chewing the equipment with each of the pellets... but other than that the AC/10 will blast the section off just as fast as the LBX would if it could hit with all of the spread ... except the AC/10 does this to 500-600m effectively still (where damage falloff is minimal and beyond with proportional decrease to the damage efficiency per ammo fired).

Arguing for 'after it gets this buff it will be AWESOME' is fine and dandy

but similar to the argument with ECM nerf for the future etc... that holds no meaning until it actually arrives unless u came from the future and somehow returned here telling us that it's all fine and good in the future after the patch.

Just wanna play, on 10 May 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

still never said anything about mgs being good damage dealers, you just magically thought i was saying they where
and 160 possible damage is only if you use them for what they arent made for
lol and did i mention at close range 2 mgs are stronger then an lrm5 at lon range with 1 ton of ammo each, same weight, and no heat, XD lrms need a serious buff

maybe lrms do, maybe they don't, but you'll have to clarify what stronger there means, you mean stronger at less than 180m since LRMs don't arm themselves at short range? well sure, i mean COLLISION does more damage than LRM does at less than arming range, that doesn't make collision a good attack method, it just means you can't use LRM for those range and need something to cover the blind spot.

but that long range you typed which i can only assume is what you mean by 'lon' makes no sense given that MG has a maximum range of 200m, and naturally just 2 of the LRM5 missile outdamage the 2MG combined damage output over 1 second burst.

That 4x with double LBX incidentally, so essentially you now have a 2 MPL (effective range of 180m), 2LBX10 max stated effective range of 600m, but actual effective range for meaningful combat damage at 100m for any kind of concentrated shot... that's one heck of an infighter... which i'd like to ask why do so on the slowest cataphract model.

if we assume to compare that to 4x with double AC/10, dual med for example, this 4x has effective range with it's firepower bulk (the dual AC/10) up to 450m (2/3 it's maximum alpha, but over 3/4 of the dps potential), and can extend this well to 500-600m with no significant degradation in projectile damage and will still do appreciable damage to 800m (but by this range the damage is comparable to that of AC/5). and at 300m will start doing almost it's full maximum alpha damage potential.

if the LBX turned the 4x into a real infighter monster to make up for this... it might be worth it... sadly it does not.

Edited by Melcyna, 10 May 2013 - 10:58 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 10 May 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

If only it was 2-3 less damage, the LBX spread makes them utterly worthless at actually doing any effective damage beyond very short range which is all fine and good if it's extra awesome at close range...

which is the problem... they aint, their close combat potential does not even come close to compensating for their impotence at beyond knife fight range, it's singular real advantage is that it has a better chance of chewing the equipment with each of the pellets... but other than that the AC/10 will blast the section off just as fast as the LBX would if it could hit with all of the spread ... except the AC/10 does this to 500-600m effectively still (where damage falloff is minimal and beyond with proportional decrease to the damage efficiency per ammo fired).

Arguing for 'after it gets this buff it will be AWESOME' is fine and dandy

but similar to the argument with ECM nerf for the future etc... that holds no meaning until it actually arrives unless u came from the future and somehow returned here telling us that it's all fine and good in the future after the patch.

maybe lrms do, maybe they don't, but you'll have to clarify what stronger there means, you mean stronger at less than 180m since LRMs don't arm themselves at short range? well sure, i mean COLLISION does more damage than LRM does at less than arming range, that doesn't make collision a good attack method, it just means you can't use LRM for those range and need something to cover the blind spot.

but that long range you typed which i can only assume is what you mean by 'lon' makes no sense given that MG has a maximum range of 200m, and naturally just 2 of the LRM5 missile outdamage the 2MG combined damage output over 1 second burst.

That 4x with double LBX incidentally, so essentially you now have a 2 MPL (effective range of 180m), 2LBX10 max stated effective range of 600m, but actual effective range for meaningful combat damage at 100m for any kind of concentrated shot... that's one heck of an infighter... which i'd like to ask why do so on the slowest cataphract model.

if we assume to compare that to 4x with double AC/10, dual med for example, this 4x has effective range with it's firepower bulk (the dual AC/10) up to 450m (2/3 it's maximum alpha, but over 3/4 of the dps potential), and can extend this well to 500-600m with no significant degradation in projectile damage and will still do appreciable damage to 800m (but by this range the damage is comparable to that of AC/5). and at 300m will start doing almost it's full maximum alpha damage potential.

if the LBX turned the 4x into a real infighter monster to make up for this... it might be worth it... sadly it does not.

dude i said when used at close ranges 2 mgs are stronger then 1 lrm 5 being used at long range, is that really that hard to understand????
you do realize an lrm 5 only does 3.5 damage per shot and takes 3.25 seconds to reload right??

with the lbx buff since its an actual measurement of improvement its fairly easy to tell how good it will become, unlike with ecm nerf since they didnt say what will be changed

the "slowest" phract is just as fast as many other in fighting mechs, stock brawling mediums, and my 2x was also just as fast, and guess what, its perfectly fine the way it is, it might require more skill to get it in range, cant just turn a corner and rush some one, but thats the fun part about it
lol yeah it is one heck of an infighter

hmm, okay so i meant 3 mgs, typo, 3 mgs that are stronger then 1 lrm5 , but they still weigh less, 4 mgs weigh as much as one lrm5 and are fairly stronger

lbxs also help with lights

[Melcyna]

lights??? the opposite, since less of the spread hit a light at most combat range except literally point blank due to their smaller size profile...

against lights you want to obliterate one of his sections immediately (since they often pack XL and failing that chopping one of their legs is fine too) not spread the shot, which is worse still since their size makes this even more pronounced. AC/10 are downright superior for the task flat out unless we literally can't aim or lead the shot which there is little excuse now for any of us since ballistic state rewind is in effect already...

dual LBX10 at 100m for example against a commando that stands still will have it's shot spread to literally all section of it's part (and some of the pellet from the spread cone literally miss it outright, on a shot taken at center mass) assuming that the commando presented itself against you with the largest possible surface area, ie: literally facing you or away from you and standing still.

at such range a commando 1B fresh out of factory with preset armor level used on the example above literally will survive 5 salvo of LBX10, the first salvo will not even put most of it's armor beyond yellow. This... on a commando standing perfectly still, shot fired at dead center mass.

at the same range, dual AC10 core him in 2 salvo shot taken at center mass, and decapitates any of it's limb or section for that matter with 2 salvo. Same mech for a target, same range... and dual AC/10 can do this all the way to 500m, 3 salvo for beyond and declining as more range develop etc.

To rival the AC/10 in taking the light out of the picture the LBX literally has to close in to less than 50m range before it's shot can be focused tight enough against a small light like a commando that it can deal similar damage rate...

This gets worse when the light is presenting a smaller surface area ie: not facing you and especially when moving, if a commando is across your field of fire presenting it's side, at say 100m, you do even less than the already abysmal performance of LBX above since the majority of the pellets simply have no surface area to hit... whereas the AC/10 will impart the full damage regardless of it's facing and especially since damage transfer rule is in effect... as long as one can aim and lead the shot.

if we want to argue that 'after the patch it will not SUCK anymore' sure go ahead
but that unfortunately doesn't change the fact that weapons like LBX or MG and flamer as it is does suck, which in the future perhaps after a buff or two (or more as it seems to be the case with MWO) may or may not make it not suck but heaven forbid if PGI will ever get that part right.

Incidentally i am VERY amused with this infighter 4x, i'd like to meet it one day on the field and see it's performance...
Since hardly anyone ever use LBX i am certain i should be able to spot you if you ever play your 4x with this dual LBX on the field, and i am very curious to pit this straight against my dual AC/10.

I don't understand either how a 4x is meant to be

Just wanna play, on 11 May 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

just as fast as many other in fighting mechs, stock brawling mediums, and my 2x was also just as fast

i mean, seriously i was baffled by this... the largest engine i could stick to my old 4X is 255 rated engine and that gave it a top speed of .... wait for it.... 59kph base speed, before the elite bonus and that's the largest possible engine you can stick into it, .. seriously, my centurion with stock engine run FASTER than that with hunch and cent being the slowest medium around, there is no slower medium unless if you swap the engine for even smaller one.

Edited by Melcyna, 11 May 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[Just wanna play]

you do know 100m is still not considered brawling range right????

and i use my 4x with speed tweak making it as fast as regular hunchies, so yeah, slight confusing there but all in all still completely acceptable speed for sure

i also see lbxs pretty often, and lbxs are pretty effective against lights since your are more likely to hit a torso and not do all your damage on his arm or something

lol seriously though, 100m? terrible example when talking about a brawling weapon, ppcs are still effective at that range for gods sake

lights are pretty often with in 50m, in case you haven't noticed

some people may hate mgs/lbx/flamers, but there are also certainly people that love them


yes they could use a buff, but ou certainly cant say they "suck" or "ac10 better in every way" or "dont use lbxs"

and keep in mind that means its a heavy as fast as a stock medium, not bad at all

[Melcyna]

By likely hit the torso you mean you will likely do partial hit on the torso assuming there was a direct clear shot at it (the spread on LBX as it is is crazy against light mech sized targets, you will never do any effective hit on them since LBX rely directly on how much surface area the target has in order to catch the pellets)

Arm hit on light matters little either with AC/10 or any other high alpha weapon because the damage transfer rule ensures you don't waste damage in the first place.

worst case scenario is that you smash his arm instead, on a direct head on pass for example... and that will very likely blow the limb clean off which for most lights mean half it's direct firepower gone. Sure you'd prefer to core him out immediately if you could, but that's not a wasted shot either...

assuming the arm is dangling on just 1 internal HP left for example and you smash it with dual AC/10 with direct hit within effective range... what do we get? 1 damage to the arm, blowing it clean off, and 19 damage transferred to the side torso where the arm is attached, it's not transferred fully to the best of my knowledge... but the remainder damage after modified by damage transfer is applied directly to the next section in the priority list, so either way you removed his arm off and applied damage to the side torso as well (which would kill it anyway if it was destroyed given most kitted out lights are more or less XL equipped in all likelihood).

And you want to go point blank range right next to them? where LBX can be effective? sure... sub 100m range it is... (that's a pretty horrible weapon right there, if you need to go to less than 100m to MATCH the AC/10 effectiveness at dealing damage against armor... not even exceed it)

Just one question though, are we supposed to bring the slowest heavy mech (literally) all the time into sub 100m range? If they come straight at you, that's great... saves you the trouble, and if they don't? you are gonna travel all the way to sub100m range at 4X speed? This in particular in the current MWO condition where you have AC and PPC flying around the whole map? I don't know if that's brave or foolhardy, but either way it just turns a weapon already bad to start into a worse position when coupled with the slow platform.

Incidentally, i am not gonna tell ppl to NOT USE LBX or MG or Flamer...
it's THEIR choice, i or anyone else for that matter doesn't have an ounce of right to what they want to use, but i will certainly tell them if they asked with full explanation as to why the weapon in fact are bad and not competitive at all, if they still wanna use the weapon despite knowing that... that's their business. But if they have a good argument as to why the weapon is not bad and has a good use, sure then we'll have an interesting material.

Whether i or anyone else like or hate a weapon, is a completely separate matter to the weapon being a good weapon or not, i could like a weapon like MG for example because of the FX, but yet i am AWARE that MG is a bad weapon for example because of it's ineffectiveness overall. Similarly if someone like LBX, that's their business... but if they want to claim that the weapon is good then they would need a valid argument to actually justify it as a good weapon.

Edited by Melcyna, 12 May 2013 - 01:31 AM.

[Just wanna play]

keep in mind im not neccasarily saying its the lbx alone that is better then the ac10, its the weight and space savings 2(obviously it will have some down sides, its a lighter version of an ac10, and its not like shotguns in other games where each pellet does more damage then the damage of a regular weapon divided by the amount of pellets, making them super powerful up close)

and if your fighting an assault mech that has arms in good shape, torso twisting is a lot more effective against ac 10s (5 two shots salvos and a small laser to get through fully armored arms) then against lbxs that can reach around those arms and get that juicy side torso
also with lights, again, its either hit or miss, you cannot deny its easier to hit with lbxs in the first place, and dont act like you will ALWAYS hit with the weapon you intend, heck, its not even as common as you may think for both ac10s will hit, but with lbxs, when 1 ac10 will miss, the combined damage is from 2 lbxs is greater then one ac10 since they can be aimed slightly off target and still hit with some pellets

And they just sound awesome!!!!

[Just wanna play]

wonder if they will bring the lbx versions of other ballistics any time soon, the lbx 20 wont require a mech to be missing its lower arm for it to fit in the arm

[Melcyna]

They would eventually, but until they get the LBX10 even remotely functional, i wouldn't hold my breath for the others

And if the sound could affect their performance, that might be a good part... unfortunately for it, i separate my like and dislike for weapon's look or visual from their performance (just like MG), and when it comes down to it, the weapon's performance judgement is never to be clouded by it since they don't help you win. (that and it really makes ppl doubt that we are making an impartial judgement on it when we sound very enthusiastic of the external characteristic of the weapon)

In any case, if you have an assault shielding his torso with his arm for example, you are still at a loss either way with LBX except at point blank, remember that the damage is entirely dependent on the surface area presented against you, the LBX suffers from the smaller surface area presented by the assault turning to shield with his arm (since most assaults have smaller profile from the side than they do at the front except for Stalker which is the opposite) on ranges beyond very short range (on an Atlas this can be as short as 150m) and especially in the case of Assault mechs it is imperative that you focus your fire on one section quickly since their armor means they will take forever if you spread your shots allover the place.

if a pellet from LBX can hit the torso being arm shielded, that means there was a direct line of sight from the gun to the torso, however small that is... in LBX case this essentially means that if you say hit at REALLY REALLY short range, you might hit with 7-8 pellets on the arm, and 3-2 on the torso... (and there isn't much more you can do to improve the number of pellets that can strike the torso, except literally colliding against the assault directly)

but with the AC/10 if the shell traced it's path directly to the torso that the pellet takes to strike over the arm covering it, you deliver the entire 10damage per AC/10 directly straight to the torso bypassing the arm completely. If there was a direct line of sight for a pellet from LBX to strike the torso, then the same direct line of sight will allow another projectile based weapon including PPC or gauss or any other AC, or laser to strike the same torso in the same location. The question is only whether your aim is good enough or not.

Do we always hit with our weapon? no we don't of course not, well not against lights at least... assaults are naturally quite easy, same with most heavy and meds. But relying on the spread of the weapon to clip your target with a few pellets to make up for the massive loss of damage it can do at ranges beyond point blank is a horrible trade off... (thus why LBX had to be buffed, AGAIN... it was already buffed twice before and yet remains pretty useless, hence why you hardly ever see an LBX used)

1 ton of weight saving, and 1 heat reduction per shot plus potentially better crit factor (in practice this is not really useful because AC/10 has the exact same damage as the hitpoints of all components except engine, which means a saving roll failure with AC/10 results in instant destruction of the component struck by the AC/10 against unarmored surface anyway) for the reduction of effective range by over 80%... yeah, no surprise that it had to be buffed and you hardly ever see them on the field, no one wants a weapon that is extremely ineffective at anything beyond point blank for that kind of weight.