950 replies to this topic

[Just wanna play]

lbx weapons, since some pellets fly in a crooked line, can hit stuff slightly behind cover and so stuff doesnt have to be in your los (or behind an arm) keep in mind when something is torso twisting you are not very likely to know where to aim to hit the ct since its not like they stop moving (if they let you get a clear and accurate shot off they are doing it wrong) sure ac10 is good in a perfect situation where you have perfect aim at the perfect target on paper, but you fail to realize how unrealistic those situations are

just remember range isnt everything,and you said yourself something effective in all situations is "suicidal" and specialization is required to survive, yet you hate on a weapon used for specific situations, same with mgs you say they suck because they are great at criting but cant peel away armor, make up your mind!!!

[Just wanna play]

also those 2 extra crit slots on my 4x makes room for ferro armor while also allowing for those medium pulses, sure there isnt room for a bigger engine being a 4x with maxed engine but there are many occasions where an extra crit slot (or more) can be very helpful, so at the

Melcyna, on 12 May 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

that and it really makes ppl doubt that we are making an impartial judgement on it when we sound very enthusiastic of the external characteristic of the weapon)

well if you are arguing saying it is effective your natural gonna have a partial judgement since you think its good for a reason, might as well state all the good things about it, and you use a lot of words that kill the flow of your writing, making it hard to read through with out boring your reader to death with constant "blah blah blah" when the same exact thing could be said in a shorter sentence, just so ya know

at the vary minimum i can max armor with tonnage to spare, or put on a large laser or large pulse, etc all because i used an "inferior" weapon

okay so the quote cut through my first few sentences......

[Melcyna]

FF armor?? i assume you already fitted an endo first? and managed to squeeze in FF into it somehow?

[Just wanna play]

i had 12 crit slots left, already had endo steel in, and by switching to lbxs it made it 14 crit slots, so i can put in medium pulses and still have some tonnage to play around with

course, couldnt put in bigger engine which is just an all around upgrade, phracts are brawlers after all

i could add armor on the legs to make it go from 59/60 points to 60/60

and on some other mechs that dont even have endo that might make room for it

[Just wanna play]

i wonder if the upcoming seismic sensor will be able to find enemies even if they are covered by ecm, it is just listening for their stomping after all

[Melcyna]

There's no reason why it shouldn't be able to

but this under assumption that it works based on known common sense, because ECM as it is does not run on common sense of jamming method as we know it ie: god knows what PGI will do with it.

And unless there's a real good reason, there's generally never a mech that doesn't have an endo if it can have endo since that's the most effective crit slot for weight tradeoff.

The reason why i am asking with the 4X of course is because i distinctly remember fiddling with my 4X and i already came across this problem before and i remember now what it is...

i just checked in the bay, with FF and endo, using standard engine 255 (max) assuming 4 tons of LBX ammo and 2 Med pulse... you have over 5 tons to spare... but only 3 crit slot left.. with maximum armor

with single heatsinks on this you run out of crit slot just putting heatsinks so it runs at sustainable heat, so that only leaves double heatsinks as viable build since it runs at acceptable 45% or so heat efficiency without any external heatsink which is good since there's no crit space for it.

the strangest think of course is that with this the remaining weight left you with technically no reason to stick with LBX

heck if you so desire it fits large pulse instead of dual med pulse if necessary and still can fit dual AC/10 with 4 tons of ammo, if you are willing to take a bit of armor off the legs instead of maxed out, you can put in 5 tons of AC/10 ammo for that matter.

tested it again... yep with no FF still managed to fit in dual AC/10 (6ton of ammo), dual ML, 1 SRM4(1 ton of ammo), max armor on all except leg, this 4X not only have effective range beyond 450m with it's main punch, but can punch twice as hard still if it actually gets into point blank range.

Edited by Melcyna, 12 May 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Just wanna play]

idk the exact build off the top of my head but it doesnt have 3 slots left, and i think it has 5 tons of ammo

oh yeah, it has 2 lbxs 2 medum pulse (and i wouldnt replace those with large pulses) AND 1 srm 4 with 1 ton of ammo

Melcyna, on 12 May 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

tested it again... yep with no FF still managed to fit in dual AC/10 (6ton of ammo), dual ML, 1 SRM4(1 ton of ammo), max armor on all except leg, this 4X not only have effective range beyond 450m with it's main punch, but can punch twice as hard still if it actually gets into point blank range.

you pretty much just made the build, except with regular ac10s

and it does have doubles (all in engine)

so yeah with 2 ac10s its weaker at point blank ranges due to having less energy firepower (its also far less focused, medium pulse>regular mediums BY FAR)

the heat reduction from going to lbxs is the same difference as going from pulses medium to regular, either way mech has 38% heat eff

yeah that ecm is kinda funky

in fact to prove you wrong 1st
many assaults (ones with lots of weapons, mainly stalkers) dont have room for endo and

2nd
that mech is not "non viable" with std heat sinks, just a little hot, same amount of tonnage and crit slots to use

with ac10s
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f9cc2eb30c282eb

brawler with lbxs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cbc713181dece4a

with std it would be 19% heat, perfectly fine

[OneEyed Jack]

Quietly Crazy, on 31 July 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

-Though weaponized spacecraft exist, most combat still takes place on the ground in battlemechs instead of the enourmous ships bristling with guns.
There are reasons for the use of ground units which I won't take the time to explain. You can look them up for yourself. And that's not even taking into consideration the reasons for not wanting to endanger the precious ships.

-Orbital bombardments rarely occur, instead being replaced by battlemechs blowing the hell out of everything
We can bomb any place on the planet right now, without going orbital, but that doesn't replace ground units.

-Though the entire galaxy has been searched, only the human race managed to become sentient. No other star system produced what can be considered even semi-intelligent life.
First of all, nowhere near the entire galaxy has been explored. Don't know where you got that idea. No more than the closest few thousand stars to Terra, if even that many, not counting a much smaller number that the Clans occupied, elsewhere. Second, you are flat wrong and there is a second sentient life form, if primitive, in BT canon. Third, while the strong possibility that there is other sentient life out there has to be accepted by anyone with a vague understanding of how big a place the universe is (and a brain), the number of factors that have to align to create life, let alone cause/let that life to evolve into sentience without getting incidentally wiped out, suggest that it would be vanishingly rare, and it's entirely likely that billions of earth-like planets could be explored without ever finding a single other sentient life form.

[Just wanna play]

my hamster just stopped running

[Melcyna]

Just wanna play, on 12 May 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

idk the exact build off the top of my head but it doesnt have 3 slots left, and i think it has 5 tons of ammo

oh yeah, it has 2 lbxs 2 medum pulse (and i wouldnt replace those with large pulses) AND 1 srm 4 with 1 ton of ammo


you pretty much just made the build, except with regular ac10s

and it does have doubles (all in engine)

so yeah with 2 ac10s its weaker at point blank ranges due to having less energy firepower (its also far less focused, medium pulse>regular mediums BY FAR)

the heat reduction from going to lbxs is the same difference as going from pulses medium to regular, either way mech has 38% heat eff

yeah that ecm is kinda funky

in fact to prove you wrong 1st
many assaults (ones with lots of weapons, mainly stalkers) dont have room for endo and

??? 2 point less damage total from both the pulse vs ML, and 0.25 sec less damage spread time... that's it.

the only target where the pulse can possibly be less focused that it may matter would be on light mech, and for that benefit above you cut the effective damage range by 1/3 and generates 1/3 more heat per same time unit, this is normally still useful on some mechs like lights ironically which has the speed to get in and out quickly to bring the weapon to bear where it matters the most and where they cannot linger, but it is very odd to see them mounted on one of the slowest heavy mech around.

put this together with LBX which has 80% less effective damage range than AC/10 and well... it's really bizarre... i mean i am still trying to make sense out of this build but i don't get it, all the weapons mounted on the LBX variant you mentioned are essentially very very short range, and this is on the slowest heavy mech...

and all that for 2 point more damage at 180m, 0.25sec less laser beam period, and higher probability of destroying the internal equipment (which the AC/10 will pretty much one shot anyway if it crits since all equipment short of an engine has 10 internal HP)?

Incidentally, show me this assault with no endo, i am very interested to see what kind of build is this...

a general rule most min max build follow is that if it has no endo, then forget about it... but i am trying to think of a stalker that somehow could not fit an endo... which i cannot think of, used a stalker before incidentally when it came out... ditched it after but used it enough to understand it's base characteristic ie: never put a ******** XL engine on it since it's side torso has a side profile the size of a barn, and that's about the only way i can think of that a stalker could not fit an endo, if it had an XL engine... but that doesn't add up so i am curious what stalker is this... with no endo.

note: i just realized, that FF and endo 4X with dual LBX, aren't u gonna put an AMS on it? i mean i literally don't carry AMS around unless i have real spare weight and crit but since you seems to hold AMS in high regard (i don't) i sort of assume that you'd stick one on the LBX 4X somehow.

and you might wanna swap the SRM ammo location to the leg, the ammo consumption priority means putting the LBX ammo on the arm would be safer than putting the SRM ammo since in all likelihood you are not gonna deplete the SRM ammo that quickly, whereas the LBX can consume enough to render the ammo on the arm harmless by the time the armor on it is breached giving less ammo explosion risk.

Edited by Melcyna, 12 May 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[Just wanna play]

many stalkers dont have endo, the weapons and hs take up 2 much space

[Just wanna play]

its a brawler with no space left so no need for ams (and the assaults i tend to support have it installed anyway, not to mention phracts look just plain stupid with them on XD, although im curious about how good it is against streaks circling around you)

ammo and armor balance was just to give the basic idea of how its set-up, its not exact

and i know of an atlas build with 4 ppcs for sniping that cant fit it either, thx to being pretty cool running with 43 heat sinks (std of course)
only downfall is its kinda slow, but not 2 bad

lol i was just fighting an atlas when i shot off his side torso and saw him go down, XD xl engine, then my team mate found a stalker with an xl, easy kills

if you dont see what i mean by no room after having lbxs ferro and endo, keep in mind the lbxs make room for ferro, and that takes up the rest of the slots

and about my set-up "if ya don't get it, ya don't get it"
you'd be surprised how helpful doing more damage in less time really is for brawling, and its not like its actually a hotter mech
its just not your build then

lol there you go again go against what you said, "you want damage to be focused" then

Melcyna, on 12 May 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

??? 2 point less damage total from both the pulse vs ML, and 0.25 sec less damage spread time... that's it.

i am also the only person i have ever seen using small pulses, and im very proud of being the only who knows how good they are (or how GREAT they are)

[Melcyna]

Sure i'd like my damage focused indeed, but between ML and MPL the only difference in the focus is if the target actually move fast enough and you can't maintain the focus point.

The difference between that and the LBX is that you don't have any control over it in LBX that can improve the focus except by closing the distance... in contrast ML and MPL will do exact same focus if the target does not move quickly and/or if you are capable of maintaining your crosshair aim point on the target for 0.25sec longer... (hence why ML still shreds lights that wander into range in the hands of any decent gunner)

on MPL that 0.25sec less focus time you gain, you pay with 33% less range, 33% more heat, twice more tonnage... you do get 20% more damage in return as partial compensation of course.

And Interesting, 4PPC Atlas and it can't fit an endo? time to tinker with the lab then... so how heat efficient does it get with single heatsink? because with endo, double heatsink, 2 ER PPC, 2 PPC, 1.28 heat efficiency base is very easy to achieve... just tried it on the lab and literally it fitted in about 1 minute of fiddling.

and i am also curious what stalker is this that cannot mount endo, like... what weapons does it carry because i am almost certain that there is not a stalker configuration that cannot mount endo and i can try fitting in a stalker with exact same weapon configuration and same heat efficiency in the lab using endo.

edit:
yeah, i tried with several config of single HS non endo Atlas with 4 PPC, and i cannot comprehend how on earth that could work and somehow give better result... than an endo with DHS. Jammed with more than 30 HS, the non endo Atlas with single HS still can't compare to the endo with DHS in every way (well except for it being much cheaper).

maybe you can shed some light on this:
as a reference this is my first pass prototype for a 2ERPPC 2PPC Atlas as a comparison
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8dcad5db49a71b9
i should be able to tweak this further and get better efficiency out of it later if i need it.

Quote

and about my set-up "if ya don't get it, ya don't get it"

more like i am curious what is the rationalization for the build in actual match, there is one for every logical build so i am wondering what this one is. (other than "i just like the weapon")

Edited by Melcyna, 14 May 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[Just wanna play]

well on that prototype you have 1.5 tons left and 3 crit slots left......... beginning to question your skill when setting up mechs

and keep in mind your protoype (with another heat sink) is equal to having 35.4 heat sinks, the std heat sink version, although slower (obviously since it has more heat sinks taking up more tonnage) has 42 heat sinks, so........ (get where im going with this)

also keep in mind pulse laser have a higher fire rate because energy weapons have to wait to finish firing to start recharging

well really i do "just like it" i do better up close with them, i might not be able to explain why, but im basing my opinion, and build, off of experience

[Just wanna play]

ok looked at wiki, might have explain some stuff to me, first off, lbxs causes WAY more cockpit shake then ac/10s, perfect for brawling, also keep in mind the higher crit chance helps since this IS a support mech we are talking about, also produces 33% less heat, allowing me to shoot them exclusively without worrying as much about heat (and keep in mind the increased heat of mpl doesnt matter as much since those wont be used as much as the lbxs since they have better range of motion for aiming)
lbxs are also good at blinding people

and you say since the ac10 has the damage to destroy anything in one shot if it hits it (except ac/20s) arent you forgetting the pellets of the lbx get a damage boost against equipment, allowing you to destroy 2-3 hings at once, and its more likely to hit in the first place

Edited by Just wanna play, 15 May 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Melcyna]

Just wanna play, on 15 May 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

well on that prototype you have 1.5 tons left and 3 crit slots left......... beginning to question your skill when setting up mechs

and keep in mind your protoype (with another heat sink) is equal to having 35.4 heat sinks, the std heat sink version, although slower (obviously since it has more heat sinks taking up more tonnage) has 42 heat sinks, so........ (get where im going with this)

also keep in mind pulse laser have a higher fire rate because energy weapons have to wait to finish firing to start recharging

well really i do "just like it" i do better up close with them, i might not be able to explain why, but im basing my opinion, and build, off of experience

There is no tonnage left, what are you talking about? with literally 1 crit slot left..

And you are mistaken, AC/10 like other weapons are fully capable of multi component destruction at once...

remember that each weapon damage that penetrates get chance to crit once, or twice, or thrice at that damage...

an AC/10 with 10 point of damage will destroy ANY component short of an engine if it was not mitigated by armor if it crit even once on any of the component slot. If it gets tripple crit... then it can virtually destroy 3 separate components simultaneously since that means it crit 3 separate slot EACH FOR 10 damage which is the maximum HP of non engine parts...

so u got ammo, heatsinks, weapon in the same section (say a side torso) and the AC/10 got tripple crit and the random crit slot selected are the 3 slot belonging to each???

BAM BAM BAM... bye bye ammo, heatsink, and weapon...

in one shot...

Similarly this is why gauss and AC/20 when hitting non armored section can sometimes crit and annihilates multiple components at once, all weapons can do tripple crit... and thus any weapon that can do more damage than components health have a chance of annihilating up to 3 full HP components at once.

and sure LBX do have better crit potential once it breaches the armor, but it's crit destroying potential is given to it because otherwise it would stand literally no real chance of destroying ANYTHING at all crit wise...

remember that each pellet does 1 point of base damage... ONE...

so the crit boost was a way to compensate this because 1 base damage obviously cannot destroy anything unless it's already severely damaged... or multiple pellet crit simultaneously. Each item has 10 HP minimum except for Gauss which has only 3 HP. So literally, without the dmg boost, an LBX has to score critical with either most of it's pellets or at least 4 of it's pellets AT THE SAME TIME with the lowest critical chance ie: the triple crit on all 4 pellets to destroy anything... whereas an AC/10 has to roll success on critical only once to destroy any equipment short of an engine since it has the exact same damage as their HP assuming it was not reduced in damage by armor.

the critical boost for LBX avoided this problem so that LBX stands a real chance of doing something compared to the AC/10 or other weapons.

The problem for LBX however starts from before that even plays into action, ie: how to breach the armor... because in this regard, they are ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE as they are unable to focus their effect to the needed section at anything beyond point blank. You could ease the problem by waiting until someone else shave the armors off them... but this basically means you are a liability as you are not contributing any real effective effort while the team's firing line is exchanging fire and attempting to whittle down their thick armors and has to either wait until the enemy comes to you, OR, you come to them...

if your team doesn't come to them, and they don't come to you (which is often the case these days especially in larger maps where PPC firing lines are often happening then you are stuck with hard choices... since you can't contribute from your line, but coming to them without your team is suicidal.

note:
I still want to see this non endo Atlas or Stalker you mentioned before... i am VERY curious how it's setup. At least what it's base weapon configurations are...

Edited by Melcyna, 15 May 2013 - 06:46 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 15 May 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

There is no tonnage left, what are you talking about? with literally 1 crit slot left..

hmm lol idk, maybe i was looking at a different mech and thought it was yours

oh i know what it was, since we are comparing doubles to singles with out caring about anything else, i took off the ams and that meant the possibility to add another heat sink, my bad

still doubles cant touch the heat eff of std heat sinks in that case if heat eff is all your after (and having 4 ppcs of course)

[Melcyna]

You mind linking an example? because i've tried that in the past and never could get an effective and heat efficient design out of it at all... so something is wrong somewhere.

[Just wanna play]

Melcyna, on 15 May 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

You mind linking an example? because i've tried that in the past and never could get an effective and heat efficient design out of it at all... so something is wrong somewhere.

well deends on what you mean by effective

if you want slow but cold:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bebd1a4afa4521f
6% more heat eff then your with 2 er ppcs and 2 ppcs


you pretty much remove some heat sinks until you get the armor/engine size you want if thats not optimal for you

if you want an all around good mech, go endo/doubles, if you want a true ppc snipe with the best cooling possible go with good ol stds

using all er pccs its still cooler then your atlas with doubles and 2 er 2 regular ppc (28% with 4 er ppcs and 42 std heat sinks)

[Just wanna play]

yours can handle 35 heat before shutting down mine can handle 42 heat before shutting down

yours cool 3.5 heat per second mine cools 4.2 heat per second

yours has about 10% of its weight dedicated to external heat sinks mine has 32% dedicated to external heat sinks

one nice little advantage of mine is the ability to shoot 1 er ppcs with out gaining any heat over time once its ready to fire again, it actually will continue to cool off, yours will still gain heat even if it only shoots 1 er ppc every 3 seconds, giving mine an edge when defending its self against some up close or just when its about to overheat and shut down

Just wanna play, on 15 May 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

yours can handle 35 heat before shutting down mine can handle 42 heat before shutting down

yours cool 3.5 heat per second mine cools 4.2 heat per second

the difference is magnified when skills are taken into account (cool run, heat containment, etc.)

Edited by Just wanna play, 15 May 2013 - 07:45 PM.