950 replies to this topic

[Elessar]

That´s why the Abraham MBTs are blue underneath their camouflage paintings

[Skylarr]

Chris von Hoff, on 06 August 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

An Abrahams tank is heavier then a atlas, nearly twice as fast, shoots further then any BT weapon(including socalled artillery) and has better aim. (and probably higher penetration)
21st century targeting systems read like sci-fi in BT universe (laserguided bombs/missles anyone?^^)

The M1 Abrams MBT

Weighing nearly 68 short tons (almost 62 metric tons), it is one of the heaviest main battle tanks in service.
Speed M1A2: Road 56 km/h (35 mph)
Off-road: 40 km/h (25 mph)
120 mm L44 M256 smoothbore cannon (M1A1, M1A2, M1A2SEP) with 42 rounds


Atlas
100 Tons
Speed 54.0 km/h
Armament

• 1xAutocannon/20 (25mm-203mm)
  
• 1xLRM-20
  
• 1xSRM-6
  
• 4xMedium Lasers

The Mackie’s first combat trial was on February 5, 2439, outside of Yakima, Terra. The pilot, Colonel Charles Kincaid, utterly obliterated his test targets, four remote-control Merkava heavy tanks.

Edited by Skylarr, 06 August 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Skylarr]

Melcyna, on 06 August 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

.. it's not like most ppl are educated enough or even care to think deeply enough to realize it made no sense anyhow.

So that is how you feel about those of us who do not hold your point of view.

[zzzuk]

In the future, they use trash cans to fight.

[Melcyna]

Skylarr, on 06 August 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

So that is how you feel about those of us who do not hold your point of view.

Hmm? oh no that's just how i feel of masses in general,

i have no problem if you don't hold my point of view as long as you PRESENT A CASE for your point of view that i can read and think about.

But most ppl hardly do so... which is to be expected since most ppl hardly have time for them or even care about it, this is the minimum mandatory level though before i take them seriously, ie: put some effort into your case and present it.

make at least minimum research on it so you don't present gross ignorance of basic logic, and it should be at least digestible.

if someone want others to take him seriously, then it is to be expected that he has to present a convincing case, at the very least it should PASS BASIC LOGIC thought process.

TECH changes and advances... but LOGIC does not change, the same basic logic we used 3 millenia ago in warfare and other fields? they remain still, except in different form for some, while others are virtually identical to it's root.

Edited by Melcyna, 06 August 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Jamaal And Curtis Unite]

Brenden, on 31 July 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

- A gauss rifle's ammunition is non-explosive, but when the weapon is hit it explodes like an internal ammo explosion

Gauss rifles ammunition is literally just a metal slug no propellant or anything, whereas the gun is powered by a giant capacitor which explodes when damaged.

[PaintedWolf]

Bloodweaver, on 06 August 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

What makes you think that? The feudal system had all but disappeared by the end of the 15th century, when discernible nation-states began to emerge. Military organization changed even more rapidly, with career men-at-arms replacing knights and unskilled peasantry.

Only if you define Feudalism as the "Knight-Warrior" Culture which was largely ended by the Long-Bow. http://en.wikipedia....e_of_Cr%C3%A9cy

Quote

The Battle of Crécy (occasionally written the Battle of Cressy in English) took place on 26 August 1346 near Crécy in northern France, and was one of the most important battles of the Hundred Years' War. The combination of new weapons and tactics has caused many historians to consider this battle the beginning of the end of classic chivalry.

Crécy was a battle in which an English army approximated at 10-15,000 commanded by Edward III of England and outnumbered by Philip VI of France's force of 20-25,000 was victorious as a result of superior weaponry and tactics, demonstrating the importance of the modern military concept of firepower. The effectiveness of the English longbow, used en masse, was proven against the horses of the armoured knights, contrary to the conventional wisdom of the day which held that archers would be ineffective and be butchered when the armoured units closed in.

Again you can argue this is evidence that war can lead to progress and I never disputed that- but only in some areas, and only if the war is limited by degree. There is a difference between a 1-2 year long war involving tanks in open field, and a 10 year war where every single city on Earth gets levelled or a Nuclear War that sends us back to the Stone Age.

If you consider the social system of feudalism as that of King-Lords and Peasants it did not end in Europe until the 1800s.

And the point is moot, the Plague of Justinian also devastated Europe in the Dark Ages- almost 1000 years before Feudalism ends even according to your narrow definition.

Quote

The Black death was not the first instance of bubonic plague to occur in Europe. The Plague of Justinian was quite comparable and possibly worse in its effect on the people of Western Europe. In this case, the population declined steeply and reached its lowest point around 542, with possibly 100 million dead. The plague cemented the position of Christianity, which had only recently eradicated the last recognised remnants of paganism, as the Black Death was seen as punishment for a lack of faith in Jesus.
The Great Famine of 1315-1317 was followed by the "Black Death" in 1348. Once again, the population declined steeply and large areas of Western Europe lost up to a third of their population, especially in the crowded towns. The Black Death sealed a sudden end to the previous period of social change. It seems that, with fewer serfs to do the work, property owners resisted any redistribution of wealth after the population decline.[color=#000000]

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_effects_did_the_Black_Death_have_upon_Western_Europe's_social_and_economic_evolution#ixzz22ndJacCH

[/color][/left][color=#000000][/color][/left]

Bloodweaver, on 06 August 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

Right, but then the question goes in the opposite direction... Seeing as the Houses are each vastly larger than ComStar, why haven't they taken control of their own HPG networks by force? Not even one of them, really? The "politically manipulative secret agents in government" type of explanation only goes so far. Especially in cases like Kurita's, whose members can't even trust each other, much less an outside entity like ComStar.

Because Comstar has fortified the heck out of what holdings they have and the Great Houses are constantly fighting each other. None of them wants to waste Regiments on hopeless battles against entrenched positions while accruing an Interdiction.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 06 August 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Brenden]

I wonder.. Why all the different brands of lasers, balistics and rockets, if they all do the same? What's the difference between a Diverse Optics Type II Medium laser and it's Type III model? What makes a Cyclops-Eye Large Laser better than a Sunbeam Large Laser?
Why Martell over Diverse Optics?

[Melcyna]

Brenden, on 06 August 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I wonder.. Why all the different brands of lasers, balistics and rockets, if they all do the same? What's the difference between a Diverse Optics Type II Medium laser and it's Type III model? What makes a Cyclops-Eye Large Laser better than a Sunbeam Large Laser?
Why Martell over Diverse Optics?

Game wise? because they make extra options and detail on the lore and story that writers can use, giving material for use either in future publications or other material.

But in the real world analogy?

The same reason as to why do we have 50 different brands of a frying pan when they all essentially do the exact same thing (and 20 of that quite likely manufactured by the same factory but sold under different brand).

In the real world business the answer is very wide and diverse, anything from avoiding excessive fee or taking advantage of different incentive that can be applied per registered brand, etc... down to simple competition to encourage purchase.

most commonly though the simplest answer in practical realm is simply because local customer would prefer local product if possible since that would provide the lowest price point everything else taken for granted as equal.

The local production of it often are given it's own name both for promotional purpose and as a marketing strategy to better penetrate the local market.

Edited by Melcyna, 06 August 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Scooty Puff Srr]

- I cant remeber the Book. But a Clan battle for a planet was once decided by a Coin Toss.

[Top 4ce]

Melcyna, on 06 August 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

This entire thing btw, plays out essentially like naval duel between surface vessels, particularly torpedo duel... essentially a duel where each sides attempt to plot and calculate the projected path or rather 'LIKELY' path taken by the opposing foe for the gunnery to get a firing solution.

Which are done in the distance of a kilometers.

Try shooting a laser at something you cant see without advance optics and censors, hundred of thousand kilometers away, most like both of you moving at very high speed in different directions. Even if you can hit it, you need a massive weapon system to have any real effect. Thus, space battles, like naval ones, would be done over short distances. Aircraft/spacecraft being the force multiplier.

As for controlling a planet without landing on it is ridiculous. It's the same as saying I control a city without occupying or surrounding it. You would need a massive or very advance fleet. Which the forces in the BT universe have neither.

Destroying the planet is another matter, but a very wasteful and strategically mute one.

[Brenden]

Melcyna, on 06 August 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Game wise? because they make extra options and detail on the lore and story that writers can use, giving material for use either in future publications or other material.

But in the real world analogy?

The same reason as to why do we have 50 different brands of a frying pan when they all essentially do the exact same thing (and 20 of that quite likely manufactured by the same factory but sold under different brand).

In the real world business the answer is very wide and diverse, anything from avoiding excessive fee or taking advantage of different incentive that can be applied per registered brand, etc... down to simple competition to encourage purchase.

most commonly though the simplest answer in practical realm is simply because local customer would prefer local product if possible since that would provide the lowest price point everything else taken for granted as equal.

The local production of it often are given it's own name both for promotional purpose and as a marketing strategy to better penetrate the local market.

I understand that each house has their own and primary manufacturer, but my question is - besides price, why would i want to perchase a Difiance 3B8 Medium Laser instead of a Diverse Optics Type II/III Medium Laser?

[Top 4ce]

Brenden, on 06 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

I understand that each house has their own and primary manufacturer, but my question is - besides price, why would i want to perchase a Difiance 3B8 Medium Laser instead of a Diverse Optics Type II/III Medium Laser?

What do you want? Honda Civic, Toyoda Corolla, or Ford Focus? They're almost all the same car (in terms of size and mpg).

I think the tech cares more than the pilot.

[Deadeye Reaver]

Theodor Kling, on 31 July 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

• Despite mechs positivly glowing from their exess heat, heat seeking missiles are absent.

Actually, there are heat-seeking missiles, just not in general use. Several are used to destroy Shilone aerospace fighters in Hearts of Chaos (if my memory serves me right).

[Elessar]

Top 4ce, on 06 August 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

What do you want? Honda Civic, Toyoda Corolla, or Ford Focus? They're almost all the same car (in terms of size and mpg).

I think the tech cares more than the pilot.

Sometimes it is even just the same thing, but produced under license.
Take for example the main armament of a Leopard 2 and a M1A2 Abrams...
A Leopard 2 (up till version 2A5) uses a Rheinmetall 120mm L/44, a M1A2 Abrams hoewver uses a M256 as main gun.

Well, fact is, that both are practically the same cannon.
Rheinmetall is the original manufacturer of the gun and produces it for our Leopard 2. However, they also sold a License to manufacture the gun to the USA, which produce them in one of their oft manufacturing plants, only marginally modified and under a different name/designation, for use in their own M1A2

Edited by Elessar, 06 August 2012 - 01:12 PM.

[Skylarr]

Scooty Puff Srr, on 06 August 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

- I cant remeber the Book. But a Clan battle for a planet was once decided by a Coin Toss.

Quote

Clan Nova Cat
Operation Bulldog and the Great Refusal

In 3058, Inner Sphere leaders cooperated to form what would become known as the Second Star League. While the other Clans saw this new Star League as a sham, the Nova Cats saw it as fulfilment of destiny.
The Second Star League decided that the complete elimination of a Clan was necessary to end the war between the Inner Sphere and Clans. Due in part to the Nova Cat talks with the Draconis Combine, the new Star League decided that this target Clan would be Clan Smoke Jaguar. This operation was known as Operation Bulldog. In a series of mock trials, Clan Nova Cat forces would become abtakha to the Star League forces and themselves join in the fight against the Smoke Jaguars.

A single representative was sent to a Nova Cat planet and told to bring a single coin. Was suppose to toss the coin and then Nova Cat would call a side while it was in mid air.

After the Star League representative flipped the coin and and the coin was in mid air the Nova Cat said one word.

"Edge"

Edited by Skylarr, 06 August 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Melcyna]

Top 4ce, on 06 August 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Which are done in the distance of a kilometers.

Try shooting a laser at something you cant see without advance optics and censors, hundred of thousand kilometers away, most like both of you moving at very high speed in different directions. Even if you can hit it, you need a massive weapon system to have any real effect. Thus, space battles, like naval ones, would be done over short distances. Aircraft/spacecraft being the force multiplier.

As for controlling a planet without landing on it is ridiculous. It's the same as saying I control a city without occupying or surrounding it. You would need a massive or very advance fleet. Which the forces in the BT universe have neither.

Destroying the planet is another matter, but a very wasteful and strategically mute one.

Correct to a degree...

in WW1 naval duels are around single digit kilometers...
in WW2 this grows to double digit kilometers between surface vessels thanks to improvement in firing computer and optic sight, and then later radar assistance for gunnery and bombardment can be done to triple digit kilometer in range against ground target with planes becoming the primary mean of destruction in some cases,

NOT just force multiplier incidentally... case in point Midway turning point when the US 3 carriers sunk the japanese 4 main carrier that finally shifted the favor in the US side, similarly Yamato, and Tirpitz were both destroyed by airstrikes alone essentially, WW2 was basically the last time naval gun duel occurred in a decisive battle between surface fleet as planes range are such that it's impossible to fight on equal term with guns and their payload are lethal and they became the new weapon of choice for fleet duel.

in WW2, carriers weren't just providing aircraft as force multiplier... those aircraft ARE THE MAIN WEAPON (ironically for the USA this was because they had no other ship to use as they they initially lost all their main battleships), as they are both lethal to surface vessel and with several hundred kilometer range on the aircraft they far outstrip the longest battleship gun.

in modern world equivalent, our naval fleet engages other ships at ranges SEVERAL HUNDRED kilometers with SSMs.

Currently we now have reached the point where ballistic anti ship missile with range several thousand km are available for ground use (they haven't figured out how to launch that from ships though).

Incidentally it made no sense that they have nonexistent optic sight that can be used for gunnery aim but capable of manufacturing high power laser since laser power is dependent as well on how capable the optic on it can focus and form the beam.

If their optic was so bad that they essentially are not capable of manufacturing a straightforward optical sight for direct observation or laser ranging mechanism then where on earth do they get the ability to manufacture the very same high power laser they use to carve other ships and mechs

As to how do you conquer a planet without setting foot on them? Depends on the planet, if the planet is self sufficient then you have a problem ... if it is NOT then you essentially have another Japan, where blockade essentially choke their war engine to a standstill and remove their capacity to fight. (contrary to what many thought, Japan was goner by the time A bomb dropped, they were not self sufficient and without raw material from shipping lanes were incapable of waging war for more than a few years, so the US choked them to death with subs and mining wiping out most of their shipments of raw material from colonies aboard).

note:
Torpedo duels undergo similar progress..

in WW1, the primitive torpedoes have range of just hundreds of meters to kilometers at best
in WW2, this improved to dozen of kilometers (under slow run, in fast run the torpedo run out of fuel faster as it becomes inefficient) and during the late stage of the war acoustic torpedoes allowed high probability hit engagement in several dozen kilometer range (whereas the standard torpedo had to be fired in spread pattern to stand a chance of hitting maneuvering target usually).

in current world torpedo reaches range of hundred kilometer and are autonomous...

You fire the torpedo into the last known area of the target and the torpedo can scan and find that target itself once it reaches the zone, you don't need to provide any further information to it once it's launched, but they can be updated with further command if necessary.

Then you get to the more extreme end with rocket torpedoes, super cavity torpedoes, etc... which improves their speed and time to target.

Edited by Melcyna, 06 August 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Guardsmen83]

i think the most glaring and funney thing about BT

tanks that weight 100tons
and mech that way 100tons fusion engines or not they slip into the ground with all that ground pressure.

we tryed the whole lets build 200ton tank IE maus it gets stuck

[Skylarr]

Guardsmen83, on 06 August 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

i think the most glaring and funney thing about BT

tanks that weight 100tons
and mech that way 100tons fusion engines or not they slip into the ground with all that ground pressure.

we tryed the whole lets build 200ton tank IE maus it gets stuck

The Germans also designed an even larger tank that, when built, would weigh over 1000 tons.

Edited by Skylarr, 06 August 2012 - 04:36 PM.

[Skylarr]