153 replies to this topic

[Zaptruder]

- Seperate hitboxes
- side torso armor and internals apportioned between missile pods and torso
- torso hitboxes adjusted in sized accordingly to reflect diminshed armor value (i.e. larger CT).

It's a potent mech in its own right. No free armor!

[Kmieciu]

Do you honestly believe that there will be a mech with 10 hit boxes while the majority have with 8 hit boxes? That the missile pods will have their own armor and internal structure? That the Timber Wolf will have more than 55 critical slots?
I doubt it.
Missile pods will be a part of a side torso, just like in MW2 and MW3. The beloved Timber Wolf will have ONE disadvantage! Cry me a river!

[Odanan]

Cik, on 09 January 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

*timber wolf

also seperate hitbox. they aren't really a part of the torso. MWLL has an external pod system, and it works.

Screw MWLL and MW4.

(they are not real MW games anyway)

[Strum Wealh]

Multitallented, on 28 May 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

They are making the LRM boxes separate hitboxes entirely.

No, it doesn't - a point that was made over four months ago, about a HUD bug that's been around since closed beta.

Strum Wealh, on 23 January 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Vanguard319, on 14 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

I can say with certainty it will be like MW4 with the launchers having individual hitboxes.



I took this pic after I suffered a massive game glitch, but I think it proves my argument.

Actually... no, it doesn't.

If anything, it merely demonstrates that the Devs had considered the notion at one point.

However, the implementation of the Hunchback, where the "hunches" of the various models are still integrated into the side-torsos rather than being separate pieces, could demonstrate that the Devs had abandoned the idea of "large pieces as separate hit locations" in favor of maintaining the normal BattleTech space/armor/etc allocations and hit locations.

Additionally, the Orion (with its massive LRM-15, together with the SRM-4) would have similar issues as well.

And unlike the Mad Cat, an XL-equipped Orion could be wholly disabled (with relative ease) via the destruction of said launchers and the accompanying torso section.

Likewise, an XL-equipped Hunchback could be wholly disabled (again, with relative ease) via the destruction of its cannon-"hunch" and the accompanying torso section.

The Hunchback didn't get any additional hit locations, and it seems unlikely that the Orion would.
There is zero reason why the the Mad Cat should then receive special treatment.

-----

As an aside, the Mad Cat maintained the combination of its typical geometry and the classic 11 hit locations in both MW2 and MW3, and the combination did not hamper its popularity or effectiveness.

Given that it comes with full armor and it takes the destruction of both side torsos to disable (at which point, one is better off just coring it), the Mad Cat simply doesn't need the additional hit locations.

See also, the follow-up post.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 29 May 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[Davoke]

It's a Mad Wolf/Timber Cat, and since everyone(except me) loves it. It should naturally follow TT rules.
Like everything else. It wouldn't be too hard to redesign it to have a shorter, thinner missile shoulder.

And really? the arms on the thing are like twigs, any amount of missile box playing wouldn't help since the arms block maybe 2 square feet of side torso anyway. Just leave it like it is.

Or if it does change, make the Atlas AC/20 a separate piece, the JagerMech A's missile pods be separate from the arms, the Atlas/Orion's hip missile launcher a separate piece, etc., etc. etc. It only makes things worse hitbox wise.

Especially with Mad Wolf/Timber Cats.

[Scrawny Cowboy]

ZOMBIE THREAD! WHERE'S MAH 12 GAUGE AND CROSSBOW?!

Also I bet those "extra hitboxes" were originally for weaponbay doors. BUT! If the dev's do decide to give the Timber Wolf seperate hitboxes like that, I say give all mechs an extra hitbox or at least better "querks". Make all mechs speciaaaaaaal ya know

[3Xtr3m3]

No clue (as to what PGI will do)and No opinion ( as to what they should do).

Most interesting arguement though. I would love to be informed of how this debate is settled once PGI releases the TW ingame.
My spidey-sense says no matter what PGI does, the Pitchforks and Torches will out in force.

My two cents? Take what they give you, love it, or leave it and be grateful they are putting Blood Sweat Tears et al in it.


OK, last second additional two cents, this issue may be one of the big reasons no one touched the franchise for 10 years.

[joedawg39s]

I always did wonder how those were treated. I think if you make the madcat with the huge missle launchers like that creasting a hill would be a nightmare, you have both torsos exposed before you can see anything. (and you know us freebirth sucm will shoot those every chance we get.) That being said I would actally like it to stay side torso. (mabye even arms but that will start limiting weapon options.) Then to compensate change the model for diffrerent classes of weapon, leave the LRMs sticking out and boxy because they are LRMs, you should be a worse brawler with them any way. Then they could make smaller pods for balistics and lasers, something like the blood asp. and mabye even make them not so huge when they make the model.

[Davoke]

If you take a look at the original "blueprint" of the Mad Wolf/Timber Cat, it has teeny little arms with mediocre sized gun areas, and then those missile boxes sticking out maybe 4 feet above the torsos. If you're firing at a Mad Wolf/Timber Cat from the front, you'll be hitting CT(according to traditional hitboxing), you guys concern should be the GIANT airplane nose, not the relatively small missile pods.

EDIT:And besides, we've been hearing this for ages now, the Catapult has even more prominent missile pods, and it does perfectly fine on the field. The JagerMech has it's infamous spoiler, the Hunchie has it's...Hunch. The Stalker has it's "billboard" sides. The Kitty here will be fine, and i'll be happily popping them when the time comes.

Preferably with a Behemoth. <.<

Not everybody is perfect, OK?

Edited by Davoke, 29 May 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[TibsVT]

Kmieciu, on 29 May 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Do you honestly believe that there will be a mech with 10 hit boxes while the majority have with 8 hit boxes? That the missile pods will have their own armor and internal structure? That the Timber Wolf will have more than 55 critical slots?
I doubt it.
Missile pods will be a part of a side torso, just like in MW2 and MW3. The beloved Timber Wolf will have ONE disadvantage! Cry me a river!

Would be an interesting way to balance though. Use the weak point of the XL engine!

While I do agree that shooting at it's nose would be the sensible thing to do I think they should keep them seperate, though this is just my opinion. Assuming they keep Omni's the way they are meant to be and you are unable to swap the XL engine out it just adds a bigger target on it's already sizable torso area, plus if it's anything like the Catapult's launchers while opened shooting the pods will cause critical damamge. After all, the Timber Wolf doesn't have little doors to protect the launchers.

That being said I'd be more inclined to dump my ammo at the first sign of an enemy rather than being sparing at the risk of the munitions going off and ripping my torso apart. Not exactly a sensible obligation to have to abide by. I'd much rather lose the launcher to a stray critical hit rather then the whole engine and lets face it, we've all seen how the IS LRMs hit a target, the fly straight up in the air and rain down on the target and for this particular example that happens to be two very exposed LRM-20 racks. Do you want to be piloting a Timber Wolf with two loaded LRM-20 racks when a hail of LRMs from an LRM boat rain on your head? Didn't think so. We all remember how bad the LRMs were when PGI borked them and they did more damage then intended, this would be no different.

Yeah, the Catapult and Stalker do fine but the thing people don't seem to realise is that the launchers on them aren't coupled to an XL engine - They are the Mech's arms. To be honest I'd make the launchers on a Timber Wolf seperate to the torso with little more armour than the head (~18) so that way any stray hits will deal enough damage to make any pilot concerned about the launcher(s) but not have to worry about losing his whole Mech if one blows off.

While I don't particularly want the Timber Wolf to be invincible I also don't want to Mech to drop dead because one of the launchers copped a critical hit. Though to be honest I would have thought the real debate would have been in relation to the Mad Dog's launchers. They span the whole side of the torso after all. They could also rework the XL engine for Clan Mechs too, who knows.

EDIT: Looking at a blueprint of the Mech aside the given example I made above the pods may not be too obvious.

Edited by KelesK, 31 May 2013 - 01:29 AM.

[Tyman4]

Having this as side torso will stop any possiblity of XL being run in the mech. Engine gone from any angle around the mech.

Then losing the "Mouse Ears" will wipe you out. Plus the catapult has its pods as its arms not ct, why the difference now?

Seperate hitbox

[Skylarr]

Quote

Mad Cat (Timberwolf)



Mass: 75 tons
Chassis: Type W3 Endo-steel
Power Plant: Starfire 375 XL
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: None
Armor: Composite A-2 Ferro-Fibrous
Armament: 27.5 tons of pod space available
Manufacturer: Wolf Clan Site #2, Wolf Clan Site 1
Primary Factory: Strana Mechty, Arc-Royal
Communications System: Khan Series (Type 2c)
Targeting and Tracking System: Series III OPT



Equipment.....................................................Mass
Internal Structure: Endo Steel..........................4
Engine: 375 XL................................................19.5

Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0

Heat Sinks: 15 [30]..........................................5
Gyro:...............................................................4
Cockpit:..........................................................3
Armor Factor: 230 points................................12

.......................................Internal.............Armor..........MWO
......................................Structure............Value..........Value
Head................................3.......................9...................18
Center Torso..................23.....................36.................72
Center Torso (rear).......9
R/L Torso.......................16.....................25..................50
R/L Torso (rear).............7
R/L Arm..........................12.....................24..................48
R/L Leg..........................16.....................32..................62

From TRO:3050 UPGRADE

An Omni are not suppose to be able to change out their Engine, IS or Armor Value. Doing so is suppose to convert it to a non-Omni BattleMech. If MWO follows this here is your fixed Engine and Armor value. If they decide to add 2 additional locations for the Missile Pods hw much armor should they strip from the Side Torsos, including Rear, to protect the launchers? In MWO damage does not transfer once the location is totally destroyed.

Quote

Weight and Space Allocation
Location.............Fixed...............................Spaces Remaining
Head.........................1 Ferro-Fibrous...........0
Center Torso.............1 Endo Steel................1
Right Torso...............2 XL Engine..................7
.................................1 Endo Steel
.................................2 Ferro-Fibrous
Left Torso.................2 XL Engine..................7
.................................1 Endo Steel
.................................2 Ferro-Fibrous
Left Arm....................1 Ferro-Fibrous...........7
Right Arm.................1 Ferro-Fibrous............7
Right Leg.................2 Endo Steel.................0
Left Leg...................2 Endo Steel.................0

From TRO:3050 UPGRADE

If you are allowed to comvert you OMNI to standard BattleMech then the starting config should dictate what type of weapons are place in each location.

[TibsVT]

On a side note to a post above about the Orion, isn't the LRM located in the arm?

[Dragoon20005]

KelesK, on 10 June 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

On a side note to a post above about the Orion, isn't the LRM located in the arm?

correction its on the L Torso

in MW4:V/BK/Mercs the armour points for the Missile Pods were based on the value of the rear CT armour point value but that will mean they have 54 points of armour a bit too much so follow the L/R rear Torso amour points giving it around 40+ points

the mad cat/s primary weapons are it Clan LRM20s and ER Large Lasers but it cant fire too many times unless you want ammo explosion from your own heat.

on the side note

still i dont understand why ppl are complaining that the Mad Cat will be OP when it really comes esp when heat is our greatest enemy and CLAN mechs suffer from overheating and shut downs

the Nova Cat is one example, yes it boats lasers like a boss but have you ever seen one come out from the battlefield alive? a big NO coz it just overheats, shut down and becomes a sitting duck for me to just shoot to the kill and collect his weapons as salvage

[Deathlord1998]

The Launcher have to be a Part of the rigtht/left Torso.
Just like Mechwarrior 3, there was the Launchers at the side Torso too!

Mechwarrior 4 was not really a Lore-friendly game.
But Mechwarrior 3 do it.

[Alik Kerensky]

TT and part of Side Torso

Armor for "pods" as front armor of the Side Torso all the way arround pod. A section on each side of the pod could have the arm hitbox overlap it kinda like shoulderguards to reduce the overall vulnerability.

Std 11 hit boxes

Edited by Alik Kerensky, 10 June 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Shoulder pods for the Mad Cat are a balancing factor. They're a profile weakness for an otherwise-powerful mech, like the Catapult-style cockpit arrangement. Naturally the artwork will be updated, probably making the shoulder pods much sleeker and lower-profile (more realistic for a military vehicle), but they'll almost certainly remain a part of the mech despite any redesign work.

I voted that they stay part of the side torsos with no changes or tweaks to hit boxes or armor distribution.

Edit:

Skylarr, on 10 June 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

In MWO damage does not transfer once the location is totally destroyed.

Unless you can source this, it is false. Damage transfers from a destroyed side torso or leg to the adjacent area at a 50% reduction. Arms are the exception as they can be removed entirely.

For example, an Atlas loses its left leg. It takes more damage to the left leg, which is transferred to the left torso at 50% of received values. The Atlas driver was not a fool and did not bring an XL, so once the left torso blows further damage to the left leg transfers to the center torso, at 25% of received values (50% of 50%).

You can observe this behavior in-game. It's one of the few ways you might realistically blow out the side torso of a Raven or Jenner.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 11 June 2013 - 12:01 AM.

[Asmosis]

If you make it a separate hit box, and total armor still adheres to tonnage (i.e. you have less armor for each section compared to same weight mechs) sure.

Since that's probably too complicated though, just make them part of the arms since it looks pretty similar to the catapult.

[Strum Wealh]

KelesK, on 10 June 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

On a side note to a post above about the Orion, isn't the LRM located in the arm?

One of the variants, the ON1-M (which carries a LRM-20 launcher rather than the LRM-15, and mounts it in the arm rather than in the torso) does this; the original ON1-K variant mounts the LRM-15 launcher in the torso.
Moreover, the ON1-V, ON1-VA, and ON1-V-DC variants carry a SRM-4 launcher in each arm, while the LRM-15 launcher on each remains in the torso.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 10 June 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Shoulder pods for the Mad Cat are a balancing factor. They're a profile weakness for an otherwise-powerful mech, like the Catapult-style cockpit arrangement. Naturally the artwork will be updated, probably making the shoulder pods much sleeker and lower-profile (more realistic for a military vehicle), but they'll almost certainly remain a part of the mech despite any redesign work.

I voted that they stay part of the side torsos with no changes or tweaks to hit boxes or armor distribution.

Looking back at the MWO Orion, I imagine that the Mad Cat's LRM-20 launchers could take on a similar appearance - that is, moved "down" and streamlined, with the launcher itself sitting between the central body and the shoulder joint rather than "above" the shoulder joint.
Then, any torso-mounted direct-fire weapons (such as the Medium Pulse Laser (Left Torso) and second Machine Gun (Right Torso; the first is in the Center Torso) on the Mad Cat Prime) would sit "below" the launcher on the side of the body, much as the ON1-K's SRM-4 sits "below" its LRM-15.
(Perhaps someone with much stronger Photoshop-fu than I might care to illustrate...? )

This would allow it to retain the standard 8 locations (HD, LA, LL, LT, CT, RT, RL, RA) and 11 hit panels (HD, LA, LL, LT, LT®, CT, CT®, RT, RT®, RL, RA), while partially mitigating the concerns of having them mounted higher (not that ti's as much of an issue for the Mad Cat as it is for an XL-equipped Orion or Hunchback ).

Thoughts?

[Dudeman3k]

TT or not, it should be side torso's for competitive sake. give a mech an extra hit box and you have more slots, which means more upgrades, which means major imbalance issues. come on guys, think competitively about this!