132 replies to this topic

[BREFFmints]

Ignore this people that says MMO this and MMO that.They will even go to Counter-Strike and say that is a frikkin MMO.

[The Helepolis]

Dragonlord, on 08 August 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

A common misconception.
And no, a persistent world is NOT a requirement for an MMO.

This guy is right, an example of a game that's an MMO that had no persistence in terms of effects on the environment or constant progression was Guild Wars, the game's missions were instance based, monster hunter did something similar, whilst all your unlocks were persistent between SP and MP the only place you actually met other players was at the gathering halls, then you choose a quest and go do it in a private instance.

[Scytale]

IronWolf Vascus, on 08 August 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

This guy is right, an example of a game that's an MMO that had no persistence in terms of effects on the environment or constant progression was Guild Wars, the game's missions were instance based, monster hunter did something similar, whilst all your unlocks were persistent between SP and MP the only place you actually met other players was at the gathering halls, then you choose a quest and go do it in a private instance.

I'm not so sure. I would still consider that to be persistent, for some of the same reasons I would consider WoW an MMO (though that obviously had player interaction outside instances). Many if not most of WoW's more important quests were instance based, as I understand it. But players' actions had no effect on the world in the large, yet the model is still considered persistent-world.

[The Helepolis]

BREFFmints, on 08 August 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Ignore this people that says MMO this and MMO that.They will even go to Counter-Strike and say that is a frikkin MMO.

Counter Strike is not an mmo cause it has dedicated servers.... *faceplam* seriously man, we're speaking of hundreds of thousands of people on a single server, CS servers usually cap out at around 34, there are some mods that increase it with some bots etc but the game itself is just a dedicated game room...

[SakuranoSenshi]

You missed the part where I pointed out that EVE Online has implemented a system to deal with the lag, right? ;-)

We now have time dilation. As for no skill being involved... why then, is it that capsuleers with years of training time keep losing to newer capsuleers with a few months of training time (targeted at flying their chosen ships)? Hmmm.

[The Helepolis]

Scytale, on 08 August 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

I'm not so sure. I would still consider that to be persistent, for some of the same reasons I would consider WoW an MMO (though that obviously had player interaction outside instances). Many if not most of WoW's more important quests were instance based, as I understand it. But players' actions had no effect on the world in the large, yet the model is still considered persistent-world.

Semi-persistent at best, not everything was tracked or carried over, but they changed more then half of that when Hall of Monuments came out in EOTN, cause they allowed your accomplishments to be tracked over to GW2 upon its release. But when prophecies was the first game, they did nothing along those lines, no account based titles etc, they eventually changed PVP titles to be ranked throughout all accounts with faction as currency as well.

[Scytale]

IronWolf Vascus, on 08 August 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Semi-persistent at best, not everything was tracked or carried over, but they changed more then half of that when Hall of Monuments came out in EOTN, cause they allowed your accomplishments to be tracked over to GW2 upon its release. But when prophecies was the first game, they did nothing along those lines, no account based titles etc, they eventually changed PVP titles to be ranked throughout all accounts with faction as currency as well.

Hmmmm these are good points. Perhaps the problem is in the definition of persistence?

EDIT (carried over to next post)

Edited by Scytale, 08 August 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[The Helepolis]

Scytale, on 08 August 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Hmmmm these are good points. Perhaps the problem is in the definition of persistence?

Yeah, it is a common sale trick, "We are glad to bring you a living , breathing persistent world!" <-- probably overused sooo much. But as said, personally persistence should have a global impact throughout a game, but I'm sure the concept of game persistence will change as engine limitations are reduced. Say, even the NPCs will have entire new lines based on your accomplishments. I know Guild Wars 2 has implemented these things, which this and GW2 are easily my favorite games of this or next year. I believe the more creative the designer can get with a personal story and game world persistence the better, but I think originally persistent world was just a sale trick or term for "We have titles and collectible items!"

[Scytale]

Edit from previous post carried to here for logical flow.
"A persistent world (PW) is a virtual world that continues to exist even after a user exits the world and that user-made changes to its state are, to some extent, permanent.^[1][2] The term is frequently used in the definition of the massively multiplayer online video games and can be considered synonymous with that class of games,^[3]..."
I'm checking out the referenced sources now.

But you're right about the sales tricks - we should always keep in mind the distinction between advertising hyperbole and ... fact? =P

IronWolf Vascus, on 08 August 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Yeah, it is a common sale trick, "We are glad to bring you a living , breathing persistent world!" <-- probably overused sooo much. But as said, personally persistence should have a global impact throughout a game, but I'm sure the concept of game persistence will change as engine limitations are reduced. Say, even the NPCs will have entire new lines based on your accomplishments. I know Guild Wars 2 has implemented these things, which this and GW2 are easily my favorite games of this or next year. I believe the more creative the designer can get with a personal story and game world persistence the better, but I think originally persistent world was just a sale trick or term for "We have titles and collectible items!"

[Toothman]

Derek Icelord, on 08 August 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

When the game is finished, it will have a persistent meta-game. Thousands of players can be online at a given time, but there will still only be 24 (at most) in any given match. Again, just having thousands of people online at once doesn't make an MMO. They have to be able to interact with each other beyond a matchmaking system.

Which would wipe out amost all MMORPGs today. The majority of which have their "content" instanced with the non instanced part being mostly a glorified chat room. Guess there are no MMOs

[The Helepolis]

Scytale, on 08 August 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

Edit from previous post carried to here for logical flow.
"A persistent world (PW) is a virtual world that continues to exist even after a user exits the world and that user-made changes to its state are, to some extent, permanent.^[1][2] The term is frequently used in the definition of the massively multiplayer online video games and can be considered synonymous with that class of games,^[3]..."
I'm checking out the referenced sources now.

But you're right about the sales tricks - we should always keep in mind the distinction between advertising hyperbole and ... fact? =P

Yeah, an example of a non-persistent MMO game would probably be best seen as a MOBA game like DOTA 2, or LoL, just as some modern examples, whilst you have stats being tracked, and that is persistent the world itself isnt changed by those achievements, plus your champion, hero, character will always have their stats reset at the beginning of the next game. Back to lvl 1 each time, but you get your levels back quickly and it makes it fast paced. So it is a MMO game, without a world persistent factor governed by your choices.

[Scrizz]

idgaf what anyone says.
This game would be bad *** if it supported 1000s of people per map, heck even 100s.

whenever i get accepted, then i'll be able to play and have fun.

[Morashtak]

If eventually we get to the point where Bryan Ekman's post ( http://mwomercs.com/...555#entry227555 ) which states...

"It's under consideration yes. Our long term goal is to slowly introduction a way for players to run the NPC factions as well (hugely ambitious and highly risky)."

...then we will see the strategic phase of the game come into play as players rise to the higher ranks within Houses and Merc Corps (dev controlled canon units as well as player made Merc Corps). Reading between the lines then alliances could be made and broken, backstabbing will ensue, spying and counter-spying (both in these forums as well as player made websites), and all other kind of meta-game goodness will happen.

But not for quite a while. Have patience. It will happen, just not in the next few weeks or even next few months. But the strategic meta-game just might turn out to be as much fun, or more for certain players, than the tactical part.

[Scytale]

IronWolf Vascus, on 08 August 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Yeah, an example of a non-persistent MMO game would probably be best seen as a MOBA game like DOTA 2, or LoL, just as some modern examples, whilst you have stats being tracked, and that is persistent the world itself isnt changed by those achievements, plus your champion, hero, character will always have their stats reset at the beginning of the next game. Back to lvl 1 each time, but you get your levels back quickly and it makes it fast paced. So it is a MMO game, without a world persistent factor governed by your choices.

I'm not so sure that MOBA games could be considered MMOs - they're not played on huge servers, for example, and also - stats are tracked for other MP games like Tribes, CoD etc too. It's important not to confuse "MMO" with "Online" - one is only a subset of the other.

Edited by Scytale, 08 August 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[Donovan Jenks]

Match based games generally don't go hand-in-hand with location persistence. Take WoT. I have a crew that is persistent from battle to battle they get better, track stats, etc. In EVE if I leave a ship in a player owned station (POS) in a null-sec system , or leave a ship in a wormhole it will stay there for months. It is cool to see REAL derelict ships players had to abandon for one reason or another. EVE has location persistence unlike any other game I have ever played.

In the one example the results are persistent but the destination is not. In the second example the destination is persistent and the results are persistent.

The location persistent elements of MWO have not been introduced yet as they are not the main part of the game. If the match play sucks and does not work who cares how many times you fought for House Kurita in border skirmishes on Dieron.

As you can also imagine the emphasis on the different types of persistence dramatically increase the complexity of the game. EVE vs.WoT they both have 1000s of people playing them at the same time but WoT is like a paint-by-numbers compared to EVE but appeals to a wider audiences and caters to drop-in, drop-out, game play.

Edited by Donovan Jenks, 08 August 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[Monolith]

Scytale, on 08 August 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Hmmmm these are good points. Perhaps the problem is in the definition of persistence?

EDIT (carried over to next post)

Alas... more semantics.

[Xathanael]

McGamer, on 08 August 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

I am a big Mechwarrior fan, but I fail to see how this game classifies as an mmo? First off, there looks to be nothing persistent about the gameworld and there are no pilot avatars either. The list goes on from there, but unfortunately this game is looking to be a glorified deathmatch with lobby.

This is not a troll post, it is an honest question from a long-time fan of the original video-games, PnP games and novels.

This dude is a n00b.. he has no idea what he is talking about. Watch what you post. NDA still in effect. I think he wants World of Battlemechs with lazor pistuhls andz chocolates

[Scytale]

Monolith, on 08 August 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Alas... more semantics.

Why is this so upsetting to you? I agree also that it ultimately doesn't make a difference - the discussion is academic, but that doesn't make it worthless.

[Joanna Conners]

McGamer, on 08 August 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

I am a big Mechwarrior fan, but I fail to see how this game classifies as an mmo? First off, there looks to be nothing persistent about the gameworld and there are no pilot avatars either. The list goes on from there, but unfortunately this game is looking to be a glorified deathmatch with lobby.

This is not a troll post, it is an honest question from a long-time fan of the original video-games, PnP games and novels.

An MMO is any online game that has no single-player functionality. It does not imply MMORPG in any way, shape or form.

[KnowBuddy]

As far as I can tell, PGI has made no assertions that Mechwarrior Online is intended to be an "MMO." (and certainly not an MMORPG, although it is intended to eventually be a persistent-world game with some sort of RPG-like elements included).
It has received much coverage, as a Multiplayer Online Game, by "news" sites which commonly cover Massively Multiplayer Online Games.

Besides, why the need to categorize it anyway? Wouldn't it be enough to have it be a FUN game?