94 replies to this topic

[Blaze32]

JeepCJ8, on 10 August 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

I willing to go so far as to suggest that battle with clan forces be PvE instead of PvP.

Or the clans could be Dev controlled anyone think of that? I think that would be a good idea no need to make an AI, no "dumb" AI, saves on programing time and the devs could control what happened and when it happens.



I hope to see a pink madcat/timbur wolf in the future...

[Brenden]

Thats like saying the next mech after will be a Warhammer.

[Stormwolf]

Jakob Knight, on 10 August 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

I don't know if you are serious.

That would be an entire additional games-worth of code to stick into a game they just spent years developing. You want to put in AI routines that will decide if a player's actions every time they shoot are 'honorable'? You want an entirely different and seperate game section for 'Clan' players? You want the penalty for abusers to be that they have to go back to play Inner Sphere pilots, just like 'all the rest'?

Or did you have in mind requiring an Admin ride in the back seat of each and every Clan player through every single minute of every single battle to make the calls?

No, this is something that would only lead to a broken game. The Clans have no place in MWO that can't be filled by already-established Inner Sphere units, so I don't see the point beyond injecting a ton of bugs just when the game should be stablizing from Release. If you really want to play Clan-style, then just go form a merc company that operates according to Clan doctrine and Clan concepts of Zelbriggen. Then you will have all you want without breaking the game.

How so? We already had honor point deductions for dezgra actions in MW2 in the mid 90's.

At any rate, the devs had already pointed out in a early interview that there would be rewards for honorable combat but no punishment. But knowing the power of Clan tech (which was horribly nerfed in past MW games) it might be a good idea to make the Clan combat system far more harsh and unforgiving like it is in the novels and TT.

I'd like to see the following:

General rules:
1. Killing a friendly should give a massive honor point deduction
2. Shooting a allied unit should not give a deduction until you've destroyed more then 10% health (this should account for accidents)
3. The lower the BV of the unit you field, the higher the honor/XP bonus.
4. Clan commanders should be able to grant hegira when the opposing team is at 30% strength of the Clan team. This should generate its own rewards for the Clan side for doing so, the IS side wouldn't have such big repair bills at the end.
5. The honor rewards and punishments are lower in Grand melee then they are under zellbrigen

While zellbrigen is in effect:
1. Attack a opponent that was already claimed and attacked by a team mate should give a honor point deduction
2. Defeating multiple targets in a row will give a accumulative reward while playing honorably
3. The entire star shouldn't suffer a honor deduction when members break the honor rules. Instigating a Grand Melee should give the instigater a honor point deduction.
4. There should be no negative effects for the Clan players when the IS side instigates a Grand Melee, they should infact get a reward for staying honorable so long.
5. Firing at units that were granted hegira will not be given the bonus reward that comes with hegira. This does not count when the IS unit attacks first.
6. The last remaining Clan unit can effectively claim every IS mech as a target without laying a specific claim to them. So it's shoot everthing.
7. Being attacked by already claimed unit gives you the right to fight back, the claim unit effectively challenged two Clan players by doing so. Having multiple IS units do this will trigger a Grand Melee. Honor/XP will be split by the two Clan units.

Grand Melee
1. Everything goes, you only can't attack any friendly units.
2. Even here the hegira rule applies, only the deduction of honor points is far less then when it was under zellbrigen.
3. IS units mounting a C3 network are reason enough to trigger a grand melee without a reduction in honor.
4. The grand melee cannot be undone once it has started.
5. Multiple IS units shooting at a Clan unit will trigger a Grand melee, there will be no reduction in Clan honor here.


The general reasoning here is that many diehard Clan players will already be playing by honor rules while all the munchkins get weeded out. This will also keep the game far more balanced for the IS players.

Edited by Stormwolf, 11 August 2012 - 02:36 AM.

[Dantioch]

hiho, i would like the idea in it self that, MWO like following the IS timeline, starting 3049 and going in like realtime in all the cool content to follow clans, commstar the battle of Tukayyid etc etc etc ...

regards Dantioch Dragon lover =

[Helvetica]

I really don't understand the love clans gets. People screaming about it don't care about the fluff. So it's all about superior mechs/weapons. OK fine. BUt think on it. XL engines right now are really fragile. it's like taking 4 tons of armour off your mech. So you ever stop to think how fragile clan tech will be despite it's advantages? They will balance it.

So i can't wait to kill them pretty little mechs in seconds.

[Zoex]

I don't get why people have to get so bent out of shape over this. Some people just like the way the clan mechs look, some like the fluff that comes with being a trueborn. Either way it won't effect your game because the developers will find a way to make it work.

The idea of the clan honor rules sounds pretty cool to me. Perhaps they could have seperate user accounts for Clan and IS. I imagine many people would have both.

Added: This reminds me of people getting pissed off over the XL engine debate in table top. Why in the hell would you get mad at someone for having a different preference?

Edited by Zoex, 11 August 2012 - 03:32 AM.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

Sephlock, on 10 August 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

I'd be inclined to say yes to this, but you know that that will lead to certain groups doing endless grinds and then crushing everyone else with clan tech.

Well, think of it this way - it's salvage. First come best served. However, let's say you're a merc. You're going to have to actually auction it off after the mission, in order to 'win' it. Salvage for a House-aligned player goes to, again, an auction. This puts Founders at the advantage for the more-powerful weapons with their enhanced cash rates, which cannot be fitted to Founders mechs (unless they want to run out of C-bills while they refit their Atlas with Clan Gauss Rifles, because the changeover would have to take time for balancing), while the chassis get taken by the Houses at first for 'analysis'. Of course, the chassis arguement is based on the idea of the Clan invasion being, from the outset, AI. Which they won't be, or at least, it's unlikely. Players cannot lose chassis, it's an unfair punishment for simply facing someone better than you. If it's AI, then salvage is going to be the method of choice for your Marauders/Mad Cat/Cougar/Behemoth/Kodiak (ah, I'm just waiting for Ghost Bear and Star Viper. Screw Jade Falcon, those guys are insane. And meh, I'm neutral towards Clan Wolf). Ahem, back to my point. Basically, there is the answer to the salvage issue.


Well, that and having the mechs available as 'event' items, similar to LosTech for a while. You know, send scouts out to asteroid fields, come across laboratory, find working Cougar prototype/Clan ER weaponry/Null Sig (oh, I sure as hell hope no Null Sig, think of the CtF equivilant Ravens - unarmed, invisible, and armored to max, so you can't see them. It'd be hell) which then are taken for 'research' by your faction. After a few weeks (or a few months, either one, and depending on which planetary science group has it, the higher cost groups running faster), your faction gets sent a single example of the variant of the mech/the weapon/the equipment/the armor/etc. Each player in your 'Guild' (can't bring myself to call them clans in this sense) acquires the item over time, until, after roughly a year, most players have a good mix of both IS and Clan technologies. THEN have the Clantech fully amalgamated into the full scheme of things for sale, when an abundance-of-sorts is available.

Edited by Tarriss Halcyon, 11 August 2012 - 03:48 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

Stormwolf, on 11 August 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

How so? We already had honor point deductions for dezgra actions in MW2 in the mid 90's.

At any rate, the devs had already pointed out in a early interview that there would be rewards for honorable combat but no punishment. But knowing the power of Clan tech (which was horribly nerfed in past MW games) it might be a good idea to make the Clan combat system far more harsh and unforgiving like it is in the novels and TT.

I'd like to see the following:

General rules:
1. Killing a friendly should give a massive honor point deduction
2. Shooting a allied unit should not give a deduction until you've destroyed more then 10% health (this should account for accidents)
3. The lower the BV of the unit you field, the higher the honor/XP bonus.
4. Clan commanders should be able to grant hegira when the opposing team is at 30% strength of the Clan team. This should generate its own rewards for the Clan side for doing so, the IS side wouldn't have such big repair bills at the end.
5. The honor rewards and punishments are lower in Grand melee then they are under zellbrigen

While zellbrigen is in effect:
1. Attack a opponent that was already claimed and attacked by a team mate should give a honor point deduction
2. Defeating multiple targets in a row will give a accumulative reward while playing honorably
3. The entire star shouldn't suffer a honor deduction when members break the honor rules. Instigating a Grand Melee should give the instigater a honor point deduction.
4. There should be no negative effects for the Clan players when the IS side instigates a Grand Melee, they should infact get a reward for staying honorable so long.
5. Firing at units that were granted hegira will not be given the bonus reward that comes with hegira. This does not count when the IS unit attacks first.
6. The last remaining Clan unit can effectively claim every IS mech as a target without laying a specific claim to them. So it's shoot everthing.
7. Being attacked by already claimed unit gives you the right to fight back, the claim unit effectively challenged two Clan players by doing so. Having multiple IS units do this will trigger a Grand Melee. Honor/XP will be split by the two Clan units.

Grand Melee
1. Everything goes, you only can't attack any friendly units.
2. Even here the hegira rule applies, only the deduction of honor points is far less then when it was under zellbrigen.
3. IS units mounting a C3 network are reason enough to trigger a grand melee without a reduction in honor.
4. The grand melee cannot be undone once it has started.
5. Multiple IS units shooting at a Clan unit will trigger a Grand melee, there will be no reduction in Clan honor here.


The general reasoning here is that many diehard Clan players will already be playing by honor rules while all the munchkins get weeded out. This will also keep the game far more balanced for the IS players.

You are just proving my point.

Look at how much you are proposing. Now realize each and every one of those things will require extensive code, testing, integration with the current game code, and safeguards against players bypassing them. On top of all this, you -still- need an AI to monitor all of this or an Admin in the back seat. Do you realize how -much- additional processing power and subcode this would require?

You also fail to understand that you are looking at this through the lens of games that were either -all- Clan or with everyone running Clantech from the beginning. There -were- no lines seperating Clantech and Inner Sphere, and more importantly, they were all single-person games designed with -limited- multiplayer options. MWO is different from those games in the fundamental way that it is -entirely- multiplayer with most players operating Inner Sphere technology.

Most damning of all....in -every- other Mechwarrior game, when multiplayer battles happened, -NO ONE EVER FOLLOWED CLAN ROE-. EVER. Battles always involved concentrated fire, undeclared attack, all sides bringing their maximum firepower available, and doing anything and everything they could to win the battle. It didn't matter if they claimed they were Clan or Inner Sphere....players always abandoned any pretense of honor as soon as they could. That evidence is the most clear and undeniable reason your suggestions are untenable, and the fact that you make certain that the Inner Sphere have to fight by Clan rules as well or allow the Clans to fight without restrictions as well proves you know this to be true as well. You know that no player in MWO will accept allowing the Inner Sphere to concentrate their fire (which is the only way they can counter Clantech) without themselves being able to do the same, and that they will regardless.

Bottom line: Your suggestion would involve an entirely different game than MWO, and players far more dedicated than there have ever been in Mechwarrior games to date. I don't see either of those happening.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 11 August 2012 - 04:11 AM.

[Lightdragon]

Raalic, on 10 August 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

We have 15 IS chassis at this time, and we’re approaching mid-August 3049.

Many of you remember that Phelan Kell is captured by Clan Wolf on The Rock 3 days from this day, 3049. The Periphery is seeing a good deal of Clan action as we speak, and we will be dealing with a full-scale Clan invasion starting in March of 3050, a mere six and a half months away.

This game will be going live some time in the near future. Exactly when hasn’t been addressed, but with the massive influx of Founders into the Closed Beta, we can at least assume that an Open Beta (something approximating “Live”) will follow suit within a reasonable period of time. We know that not every chassis is implemented right now, and we know that the process of adding ‘mechs to the game is somewhat time-consuming. By the time this game is in Open Beta, it is unlikely that we will have access to all 15 of the so-far-revealed ‘mechs.

My question is this: why does battlemech 16 have to be an Inner Sphere chassis? Wouldn’t the implementation of battlemech 16 put it somewhere around the Clan Invasion?

Maybe 16 is an Inner Sphere ‘mech. Ok. What about 17? 18?

I think we’re really, really close to seeing some Clan tech announcements. There is no reason that revealing a Clan ‘mech would mean that it needs to be in the game prior to March.

you are ******* retarded

[Stormwolf]

Jakob Knight, on 11 August 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

You are just proving my point.

Look at how much you are proposing. Now realize each and every one of those things will require extensive code, testing, integration with the current game code, and safeguards against players bypassing them. On top of all this, you -still- need an AI to monitor all of this or an Admin in the back seat. Do you realize how -much- additional processing power and subcode this would require?

Far less code then what is needed to make a mech move or have a light source shine on something. Collecting stats is really easy. You often don't even need reals, just keep them integers. These variables could be computed on a system as primitive as a 486 with 8 MB RAM.

Hell, I programmed far more complex things in Pascal back in the day.

Quote

You also fail to understand that you are looking at this through the lens of games that were either -all- Clan or with everyone running Clantech from the beginning. There -were- no lines seperating Clantech and Inner Sphere, and more importantly, they were all single-person games designed with -limited- multiplayer options. MWO is different from those games in the fundamental way that it is -entirely- multiplayer with most players operating Inner Sphere technology.

How do you know what my perception is?
Most past games had Clan tech nerfed and MWO isn't going to stay IS tech only:

http://mwomercs.com/...post__p__694502

I'm under the assumption here that they aren't going to turn this into MW4 where the entire Clan armory is for sale on the IS market.

Quote

Most damning of all....in -every- other Mechwarrior game, when multiplayer battles happened, -NO ONE EVER FOLLOWED CLAN ROE-. EVER. Battles always involved concentrated fire, undeclared attack, all sides bringing their maximum firepower available, and doing anything and everything they could to win the battle. It didn't matter if they claimed they were Clan or Inner Sphere....players always abandoned any pretense of honor as soon as they could. That evidence is the most clear and undeniable reason your suggestions are untenable, and the fact that you make certain that the Inner Sphere have to fight by Clan rules as well or allow the Clans to fight without restrictions as well proves you know this to be true as well. You know that no player in MWO will accept allowing the Inner Sphere to concentrate their fire (which is the only way they can counter Clantech) without themselves being able to do the same, and that they will regardless.

Nobody is forcing the Inner Sphere players to do anything, I have thrown you guys enough bones to get some good victories if you are smart enough to figure it out.

Most of those supposed Clan players you refer to know nothing about the Clans. I have seen those guys on this very board, they know squat about the background, trials, etc.

And those Clan ROE you are thinking of is probably this list:

http://ppc.warhawken...lans/honor.html

This list does NOT contain the actual rules of engagement. I challenge you to find me a official book that says that you can't target the head of a mech.

There are hordes of groups around who play by Clan rules and are fine with the system I proposed.
I went to visit them all and they are cool with honorable combat:

http://mwomercs.com/...council-thread/

Quote

Bottom line: Your suggestion would involve an entirely different game than MWO, and players far more dedicated than there have ever been in Mechwarrior games to date. I don't see either of those happening.

No it doesn't, how do you reach these conclusions?

Edited by Stormwolf, 11 August 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[Novakaine]

Sorry Bottle Babies follow the timeline "No Clan"

[Stormwolf]

Novakaine, on 11 August 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Sorry Bottle Babies follow the timeline "No Clan"

The "Bottle Babies" are already in the periphery....

[Vodkavaiator]

I don't really see how the honor rules help the IS players...all they amount to is "If the clan team feels like being nice and giving the Inner Sphere team a chance."

The Clans follow the honor code so long as the IS does so(where the IS are at disadvantage). If the IS gang up on single targets or break the "rules" so to speak, then the clans are free do so as well. The problem here is that going against Zellbringen is exactly what the IS needs to do...

Logically all I see happening in a match is:
IS team breaks Zellbringen(only chance)
Clan teams now has a legitimate reason to break Zellbringen
IS team is pwned

Edited by Vodkavaiator, 11 August 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[PlagueChampion]

arent you excited with the work they've done already, shame on you!

[Stormwolf]

Vodkavaiator, on 11 August 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

I don't really see how the honor rules help the IS players...all they amount to is "If the clan team feels like being nice and giving the Inner Sphere team a chance."

The Clans follow the honor code so long as the IS does so(where the IS are at disadvantage). If the IS gang up on single targets or break the "rules" so to speak, then the clans are free do so as well. The problem here is that going against Zellbringen is exactly what the IS needs to do...

Logically all I see happening in a match is:
IS team breaks Zellbringen(only chance)
Clan teams now has a legitimate reason to break Zellbringen
IS team is pwned

The IS team would have larger numbers to keep things fair since 1 on 1 doesn't work for the IS.

And you guys really aren't thinking about all the loopholes here. I'm not going to spell them all out for you, just check out the Total Warfare example of Clan honor.

[Jakob Knight]

Stormwolf, on 11 August 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Far less code then what is needed to make a mech move or have a light source shine on something. Collecting stats is really easy. You often don't even need reals, just keep them integers. These variables could be computed on a system as primitive as a 486 with 8 MB RAM.

Hell, I programmed far more complex things in Pascal back in the day.

Then you should realize that what you are asking for is not just gathering of data, but real-time, instantaneous evaluation of that data and implementation of consequences concurrent to the operating code of the game already in place. The evaluation criteria for an AI to determine if a player is being 'honorable' would, itself, require vast resources, considering even Humans disagree on what that means. For the game itself to make decisions on each shot, positioning of the combatants, and the actions of the mechwarrior in regards to the guidelines you outlined would mean a -ton- of new code and intrusive subroutines that would just beg for a host of bugs and hacks.

Stormwolf, on 11 August 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

How do you know what my perception is?
Most past games had Clan tech nerfed and MWO isn't going to stay IS tech only:

http://mwomercs.com/...post__p__694502

I'm under the assumption here that they aren't going to turn this into MW4 where the entire Clan armory is for sale on the IS market.

I know what your perception is because you referenced MW2 (a game which was -entirely- Clan-focused) as your grounds for determining that your system could work. That is a clear indication that you are basing your proposal on the environment of past MW single-player games, which had Clantech as an open and standard technology in use by all players.

And your assumption is false. The devs have already stated that all players will have equal access to all technology and weaponry, so yes...Clantech will, if introduced, be afforded to the IS market.

Stormwolf, on 11 August 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Nobody is forcing the Inner Sphere players to do anything, I have thrown you guys enough bones to get some good victories if you are smart enough to figure it out.

Perhaps you have not figured this out, despite other posters who have.

If the Inner Sphere does not follow Clan ROE, then the Clans are freed from the need to do so. They then suffer no penalties, and destroy the IS forces due to superior technology and combined fire.

If the Inner Sphere does follow Clan ROE, then the Clans suffer no penalties and destroy the IS forces due to superior technology and individual restricted combat.

These are the only two possibilities. The only way Inner Sphere technology can match Clan technology is superior numbers and concentrated fire...both of which are prohibited unless the Inner Sphere forces want to free Clan forces to fight without restrictions. It's a catch-22 situation unless the Inner Sphere has 2-to-1 superiority in firepower, and that won't happen.

Stormwolf, on 11 August 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Most of those supposed Clan players you refer to know nothing about the Clans. I have seen those guys on this very board, they know squat about the background, trials, etc.

And those Clan ROE you are thinking of is probably this list:

http://ppc.warhawken...lans/honor.html

This list does NOT contain the actual rules of engagement. I challenge you to find me a official book that says that you can't target the head of a mech.

There are hordes of groups around who play by Clan rules and are fine with the system I proposed.
I went to visit them all and they are cool with honorable combat:

http://mwomercs.com/...council-thread/

You assume everyone who will play MWO is a dedicated RP player who will adhere to a set of customs and engagement restrictions. That isn't going to be the case, as most players are video game players who could care less what you tell them to do....they just see Clan tech as the biggest gun to bring to a fight, and who could care less about you telling them how to play their game? That was even admitted to more than once in the very thread you cited. You say there are hordes of groups who play by Clan rules, but I can tell you there are legion more who do not, will not, and will only care about one thing...winning and being able to trash talk about it later. And they -will- be the players of this game, as you have so noted yourself.

That is how all MW games have been to date, and there is no indication MWO will be any different in this regard.

Stormwolf, on 11 August 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

No it doesn't, how do you reach these conclusions?

Experience with every Mechwarrior game, Mechcommander game, Battletech game, and a host of other online games. I have seen what these games become and how people play them. Further, I have seen similar online games to MWO that struggle with each nerf and code change because every single one brings in bugs and code errors that erode game stability. Lastly, I have read these forums, and the evidence of the kind of players who will be in MWO is overwhelming, not the least by the rabid fanaticism of Clan players to have their mechs and factions in a game that has already stated that they are not in the current timeline of the game, and won't be for some time...if ever.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but very few players have the dedication you seem to assume they have, and I don't see any evidence they ever will. Until that happens, I cannot accept your conclusions as valid.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 11 August 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Victor; Assault with jumpjet capability.

Edited by Bluten, 11 August 2012 - 08:11 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

If they introduced Clan Mechs this early, there would be an equal demand for IS-only games rather than mixed Tech.

As it stands now I'm hoping for a Guillotine or Rifleman for an IS Heavy.

[Archerko]

Personally I think the introduction of Clan 'Mechs will be completely unannounced and only show up as 'extra' forces forced into an 8 on 8 match, being played by the devs or a specialist team. This way there's no warning, and all of a sudden both teams have to work together or die, and the first reports of "I SAW A MAD CAT" will be disbelieved until people finally get screencaps...and suddenly all the scout mechs become worth their weight in gold, because I imagine the OmniMech will have tons of hardpoints to allow very widespread configurations...well, it would be cool if they appeared on rare occasion at random, at least at first.

Johannes Falkner, on 10 August 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Umm, point of order. You are indeed correct that 2x ER LLas (2x 12 heat), 2x ER MLas (2x 5 heat), 1x MPLas (4 heat) plus 2x MG (2x 0 heat) would indeed generate 38 heat. However, the Timber Wolf carries 17x DHS for 34 heat dissipated. Firing all of that the Timber Wolf goes up a measly 4 points on the heat scale (+1-2 more for movement). The Timber Wolf just laughs when the Atlas alpha strikes and shuts down....

You forgot the extra twelve heat from the LRM20s, and one or two heat for movement. That's up to eighteen heat, and at the 6+ shutdown check and one point shy (thankfully!) of the ammo explosion.

[Moleander]

I don't think they will release any clan mechs for use when the invasion hits in March. I think some sort of news feeds and stories will be what we get. I think the programmers are already working overtime just trying to get the whole game launched right now.