483 replies to this topic

[Rhinehart]

Ah but that's why the elementals like to jump on you from cover. Also, you aren't usually facing one or two of them. They operate in stars so you are facing five, ten, fifteen, or more multiples of five in addition to their big brothers. Plus they are small, fast, have jump jets and are insanely hard to hit. Oh and don't expect even an IS medium laser to necessarily kill one with one shot. You have to use up the heavier firepower to kill them which splits your offence away from their mech friends. Add to that the heat restrictions that keep a lot of IS mechs from spraying weapons fire into this swarm and you begin to understand why many IS mechwarriors were even more terrified of Elementals than they were of the Clan Battlemechs.

[EDMW CSN]

Leetskeet, on 27 January 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

I think you'll find that an Atlas isn't going to just walk up nice and slow at a snail's pace and just punch the **** out of whatever mech that is.

As pretty as the picture is, and as much as it inflates the OMFG ATLAS FTW HANDS SO GOOD SO USEFUL, an Atlas wouldn't even come close to getting an opportunity to do that. Hands make sense for industrial mechs to a point, but outside of something like a Solaris melee match, what are they going to do on military mechs? Getting past your loyalty to oldschool battletech and how the mechs originally had hands because that's the way mechs(Gundams) were originally envisioned, they plain and simple have no purpose on a battlefield full of ranged weaponry.

I don't know if you've played something like MWLL, but assault mechs, especially an Atlas, are giant targets that get completely hammered if they try something stupid like getting close. They're FAR too slow to be anything but mobile heavy weapons platform. They absolutely annihilate anything they can shoot at, but don't be fooled into thinking they're going to just walk into enemy lines and punch ****. You wouldn't have arms by the time you got in close enough to punch completely through a torso, which by the way, is ridiculous.

Do hands genuinely make sense to you on a BATTLEmech? Does it genuinely make sense that you can control individual fingers and joints, as well as make the complex motions involved in punching and swinging with joysticks? Or do they tell the mech what to do with their cute little neurohelmets like it's a gundam? Last I heard the mot the helmets were capable of was helping the mech balance and orientate itself based on the pilot's sense of balance.

You have a Madcat(Timberwolf, whatever), which in it's more modern(read:logical) adaptations looks like it's a feasable(eventually) mech that could potentially function. You have a Blood Asp, which again is a walking behemoth full of guns that clearly was made to annihilate whatever it's pointed at.

Then you have this silly *** mech that's completely humanoid in form complete with hands, a rotating head, and even a damn handheld gun on occasion. Outside of the feeling of oldschool nostalgia from the good old days of battletech where everything was a gundam, that nonsense has abolutely no reason to hold any sort of weight in a game that's going for something a little bit more realistic.

tl;dr, hands, handheld guns, rotating necks, and overly humanoid mechs(as in it looks like a damn gundam) are relics from a past where battletech was essentially copying japanese mechs that they saw. If you wonder why Mechwarrior GAMES aren't rocking swords, axes, pistols, lightsabers, gundams, and jet-mechs, it's because that **** is absurd.

Yes Battletech has always about guns and more guns. Yes no one could argue. Heck melee combat is rare on the field but when it happens, it happens. Hands are retained on mech for various purpose, mainly a last ditch defense or do the grabbag raid, help with putting up stuff all of this which is pretty darn common. Even in modern scenarios, it is possible for a raiding mech with hands to scoop up an extra crate of ammunition and run away with it.

The only reason why people are so used to Gunbag builds with hurr no arms and hands is because of the way the game is handled in MP for most Mechwarrior games. MWO aims to be different and close to fluff as possible. As for absurdity, what is absurd to you is definitely not absurd to other people. A mech with hands might seem odd to you or scream Gundam to you but not for others.

But again it largely depends on how PGI deals with the game unless it is just TDM / FFA all over again ala MW4.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 27 January 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Rhinehart]

"an Atlas wouldn't even come close to getting an opportunity to do that."


You don't know your canon if you say that.

The reponse the innersphere had to use to attempt to counter the Clans was to become ambush specialists, attcking from cover using ECM and tactics like cold reactor starts, reactor dampening camo netting and all sorts of things. They also HAD to pile much heavier mechs on top the Clan targets because Clan mechs outmatched any IS mech in their weight class. That Clan Mech is a vulture, which at sixty tons you would need to counter with an IS Mech at least twenty tons heavier. Also with its twin LRM 20s and large pulse lasers the only way to get an edge is to surprise that Clan Mech at close range weather by ECM, diversion by another friendly unit or some other means and then rip it to shreds.

Bear in mind the Clanners considered physical attacks in mechs disgraceful to the point of being repulsed by it. It was a shock to the clanners and the IS needed that edge.

MW:LL for all that is is pretty, really does overestimate the sensor capabilities of a lot of its mechs. But also bear in mind that MOD is also built in a much later stage of the timeline, when the Clans have been well established in the IS and even their tech is more advanced than it was at the initial invasion stage.

And as far as mechs carrying swords, clubs or other melee weapons?

Look up the Hatchetman, Axeman, Nightsky, Buccaneer and others. They weilded ferrofibrous Axes that could smash through even Clan Armor at close Quarters.

Comstar had a version of the Black Knight armed with a sword like club that was especially useful at the battle of Tukkayid in areas like the Devil's Bath, a collection of High temp Hot springs with mineral filled steam geysers that played Havoc with even Clan mech sensors, allowing COmstar mechs to get into close combat range.

[Zakatak]

Didn't the Stone Rhino have gun barrels with a battering ram that folded over the ends, so they could impale enemy windshields by running at them?

BTW, fun fact, Flamers should be by far the most powerful weapon in Battletech. Creating Helium-3 fusion requires temperatures exceeding 2 million degrees, and the exhaust can move at 200km/s. Anything in front of a Flamer, regardless of density or size, should melt like wax in a blowtorch.

Edited by Zakatak, 27 January 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[EDMW CSN]

Battlemech sensors were best described in Mechcommander and in Mechcommander 2.
In MC, all mechs had radar but only specialist Scout mechs had radar large enough to detect most enemies and in the same time jamming them.

In MC2, this was taken even further. Only certain mechs actually had radar. Even then, the level of information available is largely classed by how good the Scout pilot is. Most mechs just used sensor optics and had no radar at all. Therefore they are totally blind to ambushes unless they keep a scout somewhere.

If their scout is dead, any brawler mech can actually sneak up close until it is within visual contact or if the target is being distracted then get right on top of the target and lay it on him.


I do hope MWO is somewhat closer to the MC system for radar coverage so this mechs like Hunchbacks a much better reason to shine. And yes the Hunchback can punch, can kick and after its AC-20 whoopass is depleted.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 27 January 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[Leetskeet]

Rhinehart, on 27 January 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

"an Atlas wouldn't even come close to getting an opportunity to do that."


You don't know your canon if you say that.

The reponse the innersphere had to use to attempt to counter the Clans was to become ambush specialists, attcking from cover using ECM and tactics like cold reactor starts, reactor dampening camo netting and all sorts of things. They also HAD to pile much heavier mechs on top the Clan targets because Clan mechs outmatched any IS mech in their weight class. That Clan Mech is a vulture, which at sixty tons you would need to counter with an IS Mech at least twenty tons heavier. Also with its twin LRM 20s and large pulse lasers the only way to get an edge is to surprise that Clan Mech at close range weather by ECM, diversion by another friendly unit or some other means and then rip it to shreds. A Vulture/Mad Dog is significantly faster than an Atlas, and it's basically packing as much firepower, if not more. Could an Atlas walk up and push a Vulture over after it's had it's legs ripped up where it can't move? Sure, whatever. Certainly not in combat.

Bear in mind the Clanners considered physical attacks in mechs disgraceful to the point of being repulsed by it. It was a shock to the clanners and the IS needed that edge.

MW:LL for all that is is pretty, really does overestimate the sensor capabilities of a lot of its mechs. But also bear in mind that MOD is also built in a much later stage of the timeline, when the Clans have been well established in the IS and even their tech is more advanced than it was at the initial invasion stage. Passive sensors in that game make you completely undetectable, as if you were completely shut down. If anything, the sensors are rubbish.

And as far as mechs carrying swords, clubs or other melee weapons? I capatalized GAMES specifically because I knew that Battletech had "mechs", if you aren't willing to call them gundams, with swords and axes. Mechwarrior GAMES, by large have gone the more realistic and logical route. i.e., mechs are tanks with legs, not some magical robot that reads a pilot's mind and makes complex humanoid motions.

Look up the Hatchetman, Axeman, Nightsky, Buccaneer and others. They weilded ferrofibrous Axes that could smash through even Clan Armor at close Quarters. Which is ridiculous.

Comstar had a version of the Black Knight armed with a sword like club that was especially useful at the battle of Tukkayid in areas like the Devil's Bath, a collection of High temp Hot springs with mineral filled steam geysers that played Havoc with even Clan mech sensors, allowing COmstar mechs to get into close combat range. Yes, yes. The lovely circumstances these stories take place in. One time, I was piloting an Atlas, but NO ONE COULD SEE ME AND I WAS INVISIBLE! But get this! Instead of blowing my enemies away with my huge array of weapons, I SMACKED HIM IN THE FACE LOL!

[Azantia]

Sorry, but the mech in that picture is not a clan vulture. Its a clan Masakari, a.k.a Warhawk, an 85 ton Assault mech that is one bad**s Mother....too bad its salvage now. Long live the Atlas.

[Lycan]

I have a theory. It's an okay theory if you don't count the chicken walkers . . .

Maybe the mechs have hands, and the majority of them are humanoid, because it was eaiser for the Mechwarrior to releate to them and control them with the Neural Helmet?

[Orzorn]

Lycan, on 27 January 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

I have a theory. It's an okay theory if you don't count the chicken walkers . . .

Maybe the mechs have hands, and the majority of them are humanoid, because it was eaiser for the Mechwarrior to releate to them and control them with the Neural Helmet?

It lets them be flexible. Mechs ARE giant machines of war, but they're also tools. A mech is a big investment, and it better be useful in as many instances as possible. A mech with hands can move cargo, do ******-and-grabs, climb, get up more easily if it falls, and create make-shift weapons. Yes, and melee.

It seems to me that there are many people who have onyl ever been exposed to the games (especially Mechwarrior 2 and 3, where there are very few humanoid designs) where mechs were bags of guns. Its time to realize the reality of the canon. Mechs have hands. Mechs use their hands. That's that.

[Lycan]

Orzorn, on 27 January 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

It lets them be flexible. Mechs ARE giant machines of war, but they're also tools. A mech is a big investment, and it better be useful in as many instances as possible. A mech with hands can move cargo, do ******-and-grabs, climb, get up more easily if it falls, and create make-shift weapons. Yes, and melee.

It seems to me that there are many people who have onyl ever been exposed to the games (especially Mechwarrior 2 and 3, where there are very few humanoid designs) where mechs were bags of guns. Its time to realize the reality of the canon. Mechs have hands. Mechs use their hands. That's that.

Not arguing that at all, I just didn't mention it since everyone else did a much better job at it then i woudl have.\. I guess i should have though.

I was just suggesting that piloting a mech with the same body structure as the pilot, it would allow them to more effectively do so.

Yes, hands are most certainly an assest and shouldn't be discounted as such.

[Orzorn]

Lycan, on 27 January 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Not arguing that at all, I just didn't mention it since everyone else did a much better job at it then i woudl have.\. I guess i should have though.

I was just suggesting that piloting a mech with the same body structure as the pilot, it would allow them to more effectively do so.

Sorry, I wasn't directing that last paragraph at you, just at the topic direction in general.

[Lycan]

No worries.

It's all good.

Besides, seeing some of the mechs that did have hands, NOT have hands would just look . . . odd. I could get use to it, don't get me wrong, it just wouldn't feel right for a bit.

However, I don't think it's soemthing we have to worry about so . . . .

[Godzilla Enthusiast]

For the last 3 centuries most mech warfare has been raiding.

Having hands lets you neutralize the opfor then grab the loot without having to bring extra vehicles/drivers to carry it away. This save on dropship weight and time in the hotzone. Hands help when climbing or moving over hills. Hands even let you build mech-sized defensive structures/traps.

Hands are pretty good on a mech it seems.

[Orzorn]

Akane Yashiro, on 27 January 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

For the last 3 centuries most mech warfare has been raiding.

Having hands lets you neutralize the opfor then grab the loot without having to bring extra vehicles/drivers to carry it away. This save on dropship weight and time in the hotzone. Hands help when climbing or moving over hills. Hands even let you build mech-sized defensive structures/traps.

Hands are pretty good on a mech it seems.

Don't forget dragging off mechs or mech parts to salvage later on. Having hands lets you beat the opposition AND carry off their precious parts for later use.

[Elizander]

Can't brofist without hands.

[EDMW CSN]

Elizander, on 28 January 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Can't brofist without hands.

Toss and catch the elemental.
Atlas doing bicep curls with 30 ton light mechs.
Flip someone off.
Say Hi.
Do the bird.
Mech sized pizza delivery (delicious salvage)
Pick up a giant crow bar etc


But hands are mostly for Mech sized pizza delivery. That is why they use their hands the most often for.
Granted they can't fire their arm mounted weapons this way, but arms are the least armored on a mech, that is why it makes sense to put weapons to the torso.

For example the AS7-D mounts nearly all the primary weapons on the side torsos, while each arm only house 1 medium laser.

[Pinkamena Pie]

That could be an interesting way to bring some of the benefits of hands into the game. For each mech in your team with hands, before the game starts you can add a barricade or similar to your area of the map.

[Zervziel]

Leetskeet, on 27 January 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

I think you'll find that an Atlas isn't going to just walk up nice and slow at a snail's pace and just punch the **** out of whatever mech that is.

As pretty as the picture is, and as much as it inflates the OMFG ATLAS FTW HANDS SO GOOD SO USEFUL, an Atlas wouldn't even come close to getting an opportunity to do that. Hands make sense for industrial mechs to a point, but outside of something like a Solaris melee match, what are they going to do on military mechs? Getting past your loyalty to oldschool battletech and how the mechs originally had hands because that's the way mechs(Gundams) were originally envisioned, they plain and simple have no purpose on a battlefield full of ranged weaponry.

Why get rid of something that is quite characteristic of certain mechs just because somebody doesn't want Battletech to be like gundam?

Quote

I don't know if you've played something like MWLL, but assault mechs, especially an Atlas, are giant targets that get completely hammered if they try something stupid like getting close. They're FAR too slow to be anything but mobile heavy weapons platform. They absolutely annihilate anything they can shoot at, but don't be fooled into thinking they're going to just walk into enemy lines and punch ****. You wouldn't have arms by the time you got in close enough to punch completely through a torso, which by the way, is ridiculous.

Nice straw theory. Unfortunately noone ever stressed that Atlases try to run up to things to punch them as your post seems to suggest.

Quote

Do hands genuinely make sense to you on a BATTLEmech? Does it genuinely make sense that you can control individual fingers and joints, as well as make the complex motions involved in punching and swinging with joysticks? Or do they tell the mech what to do with their cute little neurohelmets like it's a gundam? Last I heard the mot the helmets were capable of was helping the mech balance and orient itself based on the pilot's sense of balance.

Ok now that's just splitting hairs. Also don't know why you are acting so derogatory towards Gundam either. Do I want my battlemechs to act like them? Hell no. However battlemechs are inherantly unrealistic, I honestly don't see why we shouldn't include hands in designs that has traditionally had them

Quote

You have a Madcat(Timberwolf, whatever), which in it's more modern(read:logical) adaptations looks like it's a feasable(eventually) mech that could potentially function. You have a Blood Asp, which again is a walking behemoth full of guns that clearly was made to annihilate whatever it's pointed at.

The Timber Wolf has an immensely exposed cockpit, it is in no way realistically feasible. I have bigger gripes with mechs with poorly located and armored cockpits than I do against mechs with hands.

Quote

Then you have this silly *** mech that's completely humanoid in form complete with hands, a rotating head, and even a damn handheld gun on occasion. Outside of the feeling of oldschool nostalgia from the good old days of battletech where everything was a gundam, that nonsense has abolutely no reason to hold any sort of weight in a game that's going for something a little bit more realistic.

Did Amuro Ray punch you as a kid or something? There's no need to redesign so extensively just because "it needs to be less anime." The redesigns so far look really nice and the Atlas is as imposing and fearful a mech as ever, which is one of the main points to Atlases. They are fear engines. They are distinctly humanoid albeit a much bulkier shape, and they are incredibly tough and to top that off they have that skull-like cockpit. I don't think they'd be near as scary if their arms just ended in nubs.

Quote

tl;dr, hands, handheld guns, rotating necks, and overly humanoid mechs(as in it looks like a damn gundam) are relics from a past where battletech was essentially copying japanese mechs that they saw. If you wonder why Mechwarrior GAMES aren't rocking swords, axes, pistols, lightsabers, gundams, and jet-mechs, it's because that **** is absurd.

Oh crap! You have hands too! Better cut those off before you get stuck as a catgirl or something.

[Zervziel]

Pinkamena Pie, on 28 January 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

That could be an interesting way to bring some of the benefits of hands into the game. For each mech in your team with hands, before the game starts you can add a barricade or similar to your area of the map.

I'd have thought you'd be asking for more hooves, Pinkie.

[Bophades]

Well....All I gots to say is.....You can't pick up and toss Elementals with out hands, and you can't swing hatchet with out them either.
Also...Hands are great for ripping off battlefield salvage and hauling it away.
AND.....hands are just plain awesome to have. I know I like having them. And I like my Mech to have them too.