483 replies to this topic

[Adrienne Vorton]

to add my 2 cents to this discussion... i started my MW career with the tabletop. and i always liked mechs like the archer, warhammer, marodeur, rifleman, some of the clanmechs ( those which don´t look too much like modulated systems that just vary in tonnage)... and last but not least the guerilla/ bushwhacker... i have never been too much into humanoid mechs like wasp, phoenix hawk or whatever... BUT, as long as this game will be MechWarrior, and we get a good range of different chassis, so there will be some for EVERY taste, i´m fine with phoenix hawks or what ever mecha-style mechs...i will just blast them with my warmachines and say "ha, own fault, never drive an ugly mech^^" so much for that

[verybad]

In most Masakari Vrs Atlas fights, the Mack' is going to utterly destroy the Atlas. The Atlas is a massivly armored mech, but it's firepowe, while decent at close range, is pitiful at long range for a unit it's size/ The Masakari is faster, and probably about three times as effective at long range. It's a Clan mech, there's no dissapointment for an Atlas in this situation, it's simply out-teched.

At Atlas CAn punch in a Masakari, it's a POSSIBILITY, but it's certainly not a likely event. That's probably why there's a painting.

In a real fight, I'd bet on a Catapult vrs a Masakari more than I'd bet on an Atlas. (And the Catapult would get a new one torn also).
While Hand are useful in Battletech Meleee (hit role wise) The don't seem to provide any meaningful benefit, fluff wise. A hand is typically used as a Club in human to human fights. It also has the advantage of being able to strangle or move an opposing human.

In a Mech to mech fight, the only combat is simply beating the enemy down. The flexibility of a hand seems wasted.

The real benefit of a hand is in NON-Combat situations. For example a mech with hands can be used for moving debris, or carrying railing for a railroad being built.

While people may laugh that off, in a real world situation, rebuilding after a war, or conquering hearts and minds, is at least if not more important than destroying the enemies ability to fight.

[Pvt Dancer]

Samoflange

[SumthinBurnin]

the part of the head you people are complaining about isnt a mohawk.
Its called a plume.
Its a representation of a roman centurions helm.
The Roman Army was one of the strongest of old earths ancient armies.
Maybe thats what they were trying to bring out in the design.
Hands beat a claw for grasping objects any day
LOL clan mechs not animie LOLOLLOLOLOL you loose.

Edited by 19CJ70, 28 January 2012 - 05:40 AM.

[Ryphus Trebo]

I always liked to imagine that hands were kind of like a wave of interest through the course at battlemech design. Early on the Mackie didn't have hands, just gun barrels. So the first mech to have hands probably had just basic claw mechanics. But hey, when you can pick up a tank and crush it, that's a big deal the first time you ever see it. So then hands were a thing for a while, then a few designs figured out a way to pack in bigger guns instead of hands and those mechs were superior for a while. In the ebb and flow of the centuries some features rose to prominence for a bit then went to the background, only to rise to the fore again later. Trends like the kind of thing we see in car design, that come and go.

[Madtrekie]

The game is not even out yet and there are people crying about nit picky stuff

[CoffiNail]

Madtrekie, on 28 January 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

The game is not even out yet and there are people crying about nit picky stuff

You new to the world?

[Bigamo]

CoffiNail, on 28 January 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

You new to the world?

But honestly THIS community have an all around talent to ****** about freaking everything!

Honestly, complaining about the centurion redesign? Somepeople talking that the OLD ONE was better? REALY?

"lol we dont like anime mecha, screw it that every other person in the world loves it"

"omg, my super realist 100 ton mech, cant heave hands cause surely why would anyone make a gigant robot that have ANY advantage to a tank?"


And soo on...

[CoffiNail]

Why would a commander pay for a industrial loading mech, when he has that new, green private in the commando with hands.

[Felbombling]

This thread [and many exactly like it] prove better entertainment than watching the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. I need some popcorn...

[CoffiNail]

StaggerCheck, on 28 January 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

This thread [and many exactly like it] prove better entertainment than watching the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. I need some popcorn...

Why do you think I have such a high post count, this site has been my home since Oct 31st. So much fun and entertainment and you get good convos at times as well!

[Solis Obscuri]

Bigamo, on 27 January 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Anime mecha >>> Chicken

Seriously.

And who wants to send out their most prestigious armored cav units in a giant chicken? And a three-story tall robot isn't exactly inobtrusive, so I can well see why any military would want to have a mech that looks intimidating to their foes and inspirational to their own ground-pounders. Shaping one like a giant armored warrior with lightning flashing from its arm really seems like a no-brainer...

Rhinehart, on 27 January 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Bear in mind the Clanners considered physical attacks in mechs disgraceful to the point of being repulsed by it. It was a shock to the clanners and the IS needed that edge.

Which is kind of funny, considering it was their standard Elemental/infantry attack...

And apparently totally acceptable when they wanted to showboat:

Quote

The first inhabited worlds the Clans encountered on their sweep toward the Inner Sphere were small colonies on the dim outskirts of the Periphery that rings the Inner Sphere. These worlds and their tiny populations offered little or no opposition to the Clan forces that suddenly appeared on their soil. Their only defense were errants, individual warriors hired to protect the inhabitants in the same way the lawmen of the North American West and master swordsmen in the ancient Orient protected communities. While some errants were skilled fighters, the overall condition of their weaponry was so poor that the outcome of most of their duels against Clan warriors were a foregone conclusion.
One exception for Clan Jade Falcon came on a lonely hunk of grassed-over rock called Twilight, two jumps outside the Oberon Confederation. Jade Falcon forces approached the planet using what they refer to as an indoctrination sweep, sending forces from the Gryfalcon Galaxy to provide a show of force. Stars of ‘Mechs and Elementals paraded through the center of every village, using bullhorns to announce the planet’s absorption into the Clan Jade Falcon "Sphere of Clan Prosperity." The terror resulting from such sweeps usually served to quell any opposition.
The Falcon light ‘Mech Star that strode through the clustered buildings of a small Buddhist monastery on Twilight received a shock. That monkish community counted among its members Sarah "Cat" Kattrin, a highly admired battalion commander in one of the Draconis Combine’s elite Sword of Light regiments and an honored ‘Mech instructor. Her wish to find inner peace following her retirement from active duty and the Combine military took Kattrin to many worlds and an equal number of monasteries. She always traveled with Self-Deception, the ‘Mech awarded her by the grateful Kurita family. I was honored to meet her during her days of wandering, and was impressed by her skills and good humor.
The warriors of Gyrfalcon Galaxy, puzzled because the monks did not run in terror at their approach, and showed even less emotion at the destruction of their temple, resorted to torturing the monastery’s abbot in an effort to provoke a reaction. At this outrage, the fifty-nine-year-old Sarah threw off her robes, strode up to the Star Commander’s ‘Mech, and delivered a personal challenge in the time-honored Combine tradition, her gray hair trailing behind her in the wind and smoke. Star Commander Briggan of the Second Falcon Striker Cluster laughed, but accepted her challenge.
As I watched the tapes of the fight between Briggan in his Uller-A and Kattrin in her Phoenix-Hawk, I understood why it raised some Falcon warrior eyebrows. Kattrin, though long out of practice, managed to stay out of danger long enough to regain her confidence. Briggan, momentarily surprised by his opponent’s skill, approached her more cautiously than was wise, giving Kattrin even more time to reorient herself.
Kattrin warmed up in mid-battle, using a flurry of attacks and ripostes to search for a weakness in the Uller’s armor and armament. She found precious few, and was almost defeated when Briggan counterattacked with several volleys from hid Gauss rifle cannon that forced Kattrin to shift quickly to avoid a direct hit. Despite her considerable skill, she lost whole sections of armor, ran up her ‘Mech’s heat, and, most damning, lost all her lasers. But she was not unarmed. Kattrin still managed to disable her opponent’s let leg by rushing in and leveling a wicked kick at the outside of the Uller’s knee, causing it to buckle immediately and freeze.
Kattrin, rapidly running out of options and with her ‘Mech barely hanging together, ended the battle with a flair typical of her entire career. She jetted her Phoenix Hawk above the Uller and crashed down, targeting the Hawk’s legs at the Uller’s cockpit. A panicked twist of the Uller’s shoulders saved Star Commander Briggan, and Kattrin’s Phoenix Hawk crashed to the ground, its legs useless.
The former battalion commander gave no quarter, and asked none. Star Commander Briggan lived up to her expectations, quickly hobbling over to his opponent and repeatedly firing his left-arm lasers into the Phoenix Hawk’s cockpit. This sickening moment seemed worse because few Clan warriors appeared disturbed at the sight of Briggan reaching into the cockpit, ripping out the corpse of Sarah Kattrin, and holding it triumphantly aloft.
When I discussed the tapes and the Falcon warriors’ reactions with several warriors from Clan Wolf, I was startled to learn that they had often seen such macabre celebrations. One warrior even admitted to behaving in a similar fashion. She described a battle against a member of the bandit caste who, after being defeated by the Clan warrior, taunted her by announcing with his dying breath that she had almost been undone by an old freeborn, an insult that apparently deserved a similar bloody demonstration of Clan warrior superiority.

So like anything else Clan, I guess it was honorable when it played completely to their strengths, but not when it was disadvantageous for them...

Zervziel, on 28 January 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Oh crap! You have hands too! Better cut those off before you get stuck as a catgirl or something.

+1

[Lorcan Lladd]

WhirlpoolBrewer, on 27 January 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

I've been playing the computer games since Mech Warrior 2, and I have always preferred mechs that don't remind me of gundams... like alomst every inner sphere mech does. I prefer the war simulation side of it all, not the arcade Mech Assault meets Gundamwing thing that most inner sphere mechs scream. Nobody can claim that they want Mech Warrior to be more sim than Mech Assault was and like mechs with hands. For pete sake the last mech to come out had a Mohawk. It looks like instead of shooting me, he is going to pull a guitar out and play heavy metal rock.

There are respectable Inner Sphere mechs out there that I'm praying they come out with. I'm happy to hear about the catapult, and I really hope they put the uziel in as well. There are acceptable mechs on the Inner Sphere side, but whenever a mech with hands comes out everyone just gets all excited about it, and my hope for a good mech warrior game drops a little more.

Don't get me wrong I still plan on playing it, specially when Clan mechs become available, but until then its just a little depressing. Heres to hoping for less 50 ton jokes and more 50 ton machines of war.

>Centurion
>AC10, LRM10, two Medium Lasers.
>Not a machine of war.
>Mfw whatthehellamIreading.jpg

But, seriously now, other than fire support units such as the Catapult in most of its variants, there are few 'Mechs with a truly distinctively military feel to them, because real life military does not and would not use 'Mechs; if they did or would, they would probably not be used for anything besides fire support - fitting guns as big as possible on a durable and mobile platform.
It's that simple.

Edit...
...You've mentioned the Clans.
Now, don't tell me their totem design 'Mechs are practical or 'military'...

Also spelling, missing words.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 29 January 2012 - 05:46 PM.

[Gaizokubanou]

Zervziel, on 28 January 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Ok now that's just splitting hairs. Also don't know why you are acting so derogatory towards Gundam either. Do I want my battlemechs to act like them? Hell no. However battlemechs are inherantly unrealistic, I honestly don't see why we shouldn't include hands in designs that has traditionally had them

...

The Timber Wolf has an immensely exposed cockpit, it is in no way realistically feasible. I have bigger gripes with mechs with poorly located and armored cockpits than I do against mechs with hands.

Pretty much this, but I do wish that some people didn't try to rationalize the hand designs as something that you would want IRL because it just annoys me

This is a realistic melee mech design.



Human hands has no place when you can put in saws and battering rams. But mechs are unrealistic war machines anyway so it's cool so long as people realize that it is pretty goofy thing to use human hand design for melee mechs.

[Zimm Kotare]

Personally, I've always prefered my mechs, sans-manipulators. It's more "my idea" of what MW is. But as was said earlier, that perhaps comes from starting out with MW3 rather than the table-top stuff. Although I like Gundam, Evangelion (not for the angst thanks very much) & similar.

Frankly, the designs that are being shown for MWO look absolutely stunning, the Catapault in particular I thought extremely impressive. Because of this, I don't think there really need be any concern about mechs with hands in MWO, I think that stylistically speaking, they've been done equally well thus far - though that will never stop people complaining one way or the other, amirite?

One thing I would like to see would be certain arms being mod-able/switchable, perhaps not in keeping with things (I don't know, like I said; not a "day 1" mech fan), but to me, in the far flung future you might happily make a standard chasis, but things like the ends of a mech's arms would be configurable in different ways. After all, why limit a mech to only being able to fire lasers out of its arm pods because that's how it was designed? You'd just take the arm pod off & fit one that could carry a Gauss cannon, if that's what you needed. Or so it seems to me

[Jack Gallows]

Really, thinking mechs without hands is bad, or anything of the sort is pretty near sighted. How does it make it "like gundamn" when it's really one of the most logical aspects of a battlemech or technological advancement. Man makes machine, someone is going to make a machine roughly in man's image, and you're going to have tons of Mechs like the atlas and the original Centurion.

That and as Coffin has said, most of the mechs in Battletech/Mechwarrior have hands...so you're kind out mostly SOL. A lot of the clan mechs, when their omni pods (assuming it's an omni) probably fit a hand in the empty slot, and a good bit of their designs have hands too.

[harlock]

Like it or not, the early era (3025) owed a lot to the mech-anime genre as far as appearance of some of the mecha in BattleTech. Even insofar as the concept of the Land Air Mech (LAM) and the ability to switch from mech to fighter jet and a stage in between. I think that considering that the MWO game is set in about what 3050 (?) and introducing the clan mechs, you tend to get away from the "Robotech/Macross" and "Gundam" looking mechs.

[Karyudo ds]

harlock, on 29 January 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

Like it or not, the early era (3025) owed a lot to the mech-anime genre as far as appearance of some of the mecha in BattleTech.

And the Dark Age as well saddly was riddled with mobile-suit backpacks and shields...not to mention the Spider being decked out in Gundam Wing dragon heads for some reason.

Either way "hands" seem fragile, a machine that size seems like it'd be good with more claw like manipulators. Though I'd like to use them for something. Seems stupid to have a 10 meter tall walking tank, we just call those targets.

[tyrone dunkirk]

Paladin1, on 27 January 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Well, considering that the sensor array on the Centurion's head (that's what it really is, btw) has long been known about and is responsible for the design's name, I can see it being a major point of interest for people. I've used CN9-A's for years and while FD's redesign is nice, my only complaint has nothing to do with the head or armor on the arm. It's that the hand looks too much like a hand from one of the Word Of Blake's Celestial series Omnimechs. Other than that, I actually rather like the way he handled it as it reminds me of the 3050TRO picture in some respects.

I remember that tidbit of info about the mohawk being a sensor array fromt he Warrior trilogy by Stackpole, haha! I actually quite like the redesign, and the hands, although seemingly Wobbie omni, actually make sense in comparison to a whole hand with five fingers ativated by different myomer actuators or what have you. Its a simple design, with three fingers that is appropriate for the 'barbaric' freebirth IS mechs of the time

[Ravn]

I am starting to worry about the mech release rate. Approximately 1 month and the kickoff is 6-8 months away. MW with only 14 mech models will not be fabulous.