483 replies to this topic

[Peiper]

Alright, two comments, the serious one first:
Most of the first mechs they've shown us aren't so hot. HOWEVER, these are the first ones to be out, and business-wise, it's better to start with the Ford Pinto and move up to the Dodge Viper. If you have a Viper, why would you want a pinto? So, I'm sure we'll see some great mechs coming out as the game goes on. I DO like the new centurion, and that's saying a lot, as I never was a fan of any of the mechs they've announced. And, in Mechwarrior Dark Age, there was a centurion with a large club in one hand and a phalinx in the other.

The second one, which is dear to my heart, is the possibility of unseen mechs returning. They might not be EXACTLY like the Robotech mechs, but they are bad-*** enough.

In the beginning, man created the Warhammer and the Rifleman



Then he made them bigger, badder and better


Then they disappeared.



But they weren't gone forever, and FASA/Wizkids/Fanpro owns the rights to these guys. There is hope!



Project phoenix!








Let's just hope we don't get a mech designed like this (no insult to the painter, your paint job is fine!):

Edited by Peiper, 15 March 2012 - 05:56 AM.

[Siilk]

Peiper, on 15 March 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Project phoenix!

Reseens are so much worse than original unseen in so many ways. They too slick, rounded and streamlined, they have nothing of that menacing, "real war machine" look of the original art. Don't get me wrong, designs per se are not horrible, they just not good enough to be the new Warhammer and Rifleman.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I'd rather have FD's take on them and ignore the "reseen".

[LordDeathStrike]

WhirlpoolBrewer, on 27 January 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

I've been playing the computer games since Mech Warrior 2, and I have always preferred mechs that don't remind me of gundams... like alomst every inner sphere mech does. I prefer the war simulation side of it all, not the arcade Mech Assault meets Gundamwing thing that most inner sphere mechs scream. Nobody can claim that they want Mech Warrior to be more sim than Mech Assault was and like mechs with hands. For pete sake the last mech to come out had a Mohawk. It looks like instead of shooting me, he is going to pull a guitar out and play heavy metal rock.

There are respectable Inner Sphere mechs out there that I'm praying they come out with. I'm happy to hear about the catapult, and I really hope they put the uziel in as well. There are acceptable mechs on the Inner Sphere side, but whenever a mech with hands comes out everyone just gets all excited about it, and my hope for a good mech warrior game drops a little more.

Don't get me wrong I still plan on playing it, specially when Clan mechs become available, but until then its just a little depressing. Heres to hoping for less 50 ton jokes and more 50 ton machines of war.

i would totally use a rock guitar weapon on mechs with hands, BEHOLD MY AWESOME MIGHTY SLAYING AXE OF ROCK DEATH NOOOOOB, then i rip a chord and pump it out at 11,000 decibels and liquify your mech!

[Brian Banzai]

SMDMadCow, on 14 March 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Max, where do you keep finding these?

Mostly I've been doing searches with Flying Debris and the name of some other mech and I end up in these foreign forums where they have postings of his stuff.

I'd love for the community to be able to do this as well so we can multiply our effort in finding these nuggets of goodness out on the internet.

[Strum Wealh]

VF5SS, on 15 March 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

This is a common misconception but there is no evidence that FASA or the company they were working with acquired any license from Tatsunoko Productions (international merchandising rights holders to Macross). All Robotech products and even http://twitpic.com/8uktr6 Transformers Jetfire were clearly marked as having involved Tatsunoko Productions. To my knowledge, no Battletech product has ever had any visible indication of being authorized by Tatsunoko Productions or Sunrise Studios in the case of the Dougram and Crusher Joe. Almost every licensed Japanese product will carry some indication of who is the rights holder. This is often done with a small sticker with the name of those in charge.

It is mostly likely that FASA merely acquired a supply of model kits from Nichimo (makers of small Macross kits) and Nitto (makers of small Dougram kits) as both the kits and their box art was used in the original Battledroids release. Neither Nichimo nor Nitto had any control over the Macross and Dougram with regards to granting licenses to merchandise the designs used. They could simply sell the model kits to distributors.

I see.
I stand corrected.

HARMONY GOLD U.S.A., INC., a corporation, and PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., a corporation, Plaintiffs, v. FASA CORPORATION, a corporation, and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, a corporation, Defendants

Quote

This copyright dispute concerns the designs for futuristic science-fiction
warrior robots created by Tatsunoko Production Company, Ltd. ("Tatsunoko") and
incorporated into several animated television series entitled "Macross,"
"Mospeada," and "The Southern Cross." For convenience, we refer to these designs
collectively as the "Macross designs."

On January 15, 1984, Tatsunoko granted plaintiff Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc.
("Harmony Gold") a license to market all products in the United States based on
the Macross designs except for Japanese plastic model kits. Harmony Gold
subsequently acquired co-ownership of the copyrights in both the original
Macross designs and any [*3] derivative works. Harmony Gold has incorporated
the Macross designs into an animated television series entitled "Robotech."
Additionally, Harmony Gold has marketed, through its sublicensees, a broad array
of "Robotech" products including publications, actions figures and toys.

In or about 1984, defendant FASA created a fictional universe called
"Battletech" which formed the basis for board games, role-playing games, novels,
and game systems. The original "Battletech" game included both robotic images
and model kits based on the Macross designs. FASA claims to have acquired the
rights to these model kits and images from Twentieth Century Imports ("TCI"),
which allegedly acquired them from Tatsunoko.

On January 31, 1985, FASA received a letter from Harmony Gold demanding that
FASA cease all use of the Macross designs or risk a potential suit for copyright
infringement and unfair competition. This letter sparked an exchange of
correspondence between the parties including numerous cease and desist letters
from Harmony Gold. Harmony Gold also demanded disclosure of the source of FASA's
alleged rights in the Macross designs.

On January 13, 1995, Harmony Gold and its exclusive licensee, [*4]
Playmates Toys, Inc. ("Playmates"), filed the instant action against defendants
FASA and one of its sister companies, VWE, alleging copyright infringement under
United States copyright laws, 17 U.S.C. § 101 et seq., false designation of
origin in violation of Section 43(a) of the Lanham Act, 15 U.S.C. § 1125(a),
deceptive trade practices in violation of the California Business & Professions
Code Sections 17200 et seq., the Illinois Deceptive Trade Practices Act, 815
ILCS 510/1 et seq., and the Illinois Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business
Practices Act, 815 ILCS 505/1 et seq., and unfair competition under the common
law. n1 Specifically, plaintiffs allege that defendants have unlawfully
benefited from the use of the Macross designs which are the subject of
copyrights owned and exploited by Harmony Gold and its exclusive licensee,
Playmates.

On Tatsunoko:

Quote

The company provided some financial assistance on the Macross TV show (1982, adapted as part of 1985's Robotech) some time during its run, in exchange for various rights. They later licensed Macross to Harmony Gold, who then produced Robotech. This has given rise to a long-standing legal feud between Harmony Gold/Tatsunoko and Studio Nue and Big West Advertising. While siding with Nue and Big West in Japan, Harmony Gold still maintains that they have all rights to the Macross franchise in the United States.

So... FASA "acquired" the rights to the images from another company (this "TCI") that (allegedly) "acquired" them from the company that helped fund Macross (this "Tatsunoko") in exchange for "various rights" (including the ability to sub-license, the ability to collect royalties, and author's rights)?

The whole thing does make for an interesting read...

On topic: not having the Useen, even in their "Reseen"/"Project Phoenix" form would be a depressing 'Mech choice.

Also, are you by chance the same "VF5SS" from this thread?

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Uh if we're just throwing around artwork here, I've got some more FD stuff:

Thorn and Marauder:



A MACKIE! HEGEMONY STRONG!



And this Whitworth:



Mr. Iglesias is the best thing to happen to BattleTech in a long time.

[Gremlich Johns]

Paladin1, on 27 January 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

Not true, the Dragon has a three-fingered hand just above the Medium laser on the left arm. It's just hard to see.

heh "Recall" this?

[Stovebolt]

I really really like that marauder and Whitworth. I wonder if that MAD is too close to the disputed artwork to use? I sure hope not, that'd be damn perfect.

[Peiper]

Stovebolt, on 16 March 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

I really really like that marauder and Whitworth. I wonder if that MAD is too close to the disputed artwork to use? I sure hope not, that'd be damn perfect.

If I read various articles I found online correctly, and they in turn are correct, the primary reason for the dropping of unseen mechs was for a small company like FASA to keep from going under by possibly having to go to coart and paying legal fees that could have bankrupted them - even if they were right! Over time, in studying the rise and fall of the companies that have had the rights to Battletech, I would bet that none of them have been that financially powerful to want to take that risk again. However, the Unseen mechs, images, models, updated, original or re-seen are all property of whoever has the rights to Battletech. If Catalyst/Smith & Tinker wants to use them, they have the necessary rights to do so.

So, your question regarding whether the Marauder is too close to the original marauder to be used made me think of another defense vs. mecha/robotech/anime that can be used to differenciate the products. Battletech mechs don't MOVE like cartoons. They never did. Admittedly, I've never seen BT cartoon, but would guess they moved far more like armored machines than flying balorinas! I think that other than the models and static artwork, battlemechs are quite disimilar to anime/mecha. If a plaintiff wanted to accuse FASA and decendants of riding on the laurels of anime/mecha popularity, then they would be hard pressed to prove it. A counterclaim could in fact be made that Battletech has helped create a fanbase for Gundam models and Robotech revivals and demand a share of profit for their unwitting advertising and influence, blah, blah, blah....

And, I agree Stovebolt, that Marauder looks better than the original, IMO. Some of the original mechs looked impossible. Even the MadCat and Vulture with their spaghetti arms look better with thicker, boxier arms. On the other hand, I would drool over a chance to pilot an original phoenix hawk. I might add 40 tons to it, put in top Teir 3 clan gear, break the weight rules on LAMs and call it Peiper Hawk, but I wouldn't for a moment touch it's original look. Hand held gun and all. It's what called me to battletech so many, many years ago.

Deadly eligance....

Edited by Peiper, 16 March 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[LordDeathStrike]

WhirlpoolBrewer, on 27 January 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

I've been playing the computer games since Mech Warrior 2, and I have always preferred mechs that don't remind me of gundams... like alomst every inner sphere mech does. I prefer the war simulation side of it all, not the arcade Mech Assault meets Gundamwing thing that most inner sphere mechs scream. Nobody can claim that they want Mech Warrior to be more sim than Mech Assault was and like mechs with hands. For pete sake the last mech to come out had a Mohawk. It looks like instead of shooting me, he is going to pull a guitar out and play heavy metal rock.

There are respectable Inner Sphere mechs out there that I'm praying they come out with. I'm happy to hear about the catapult, and I really hope they put the uziel in as well. There are acceptable mechs on the Inner Sphere side, but whenever a mech with hands comes out everyone just gets all excited about it, and my hope for a good mech warrior game drops a little more.

Don't get me wrong I still plan on playing it, specially when Clan mechs become available, but until then its just a little depressing. Heres to hoping for less 50 ton jokes and more 50 ton machines of war.

clan mechs = gundams in 3049

a single timberwolf can easily wipe out an inner sphere battalion, just like a gundam using his super charge up mode to wipe out zeon fleet in gundam

[Catharsis]

I can see the comparison to a Gundam with a lot of the Inner Sphere mechs, and I definitely have never been a fan of the hands, especially on mechs like the Stormcrow or Nova where it makes NO FRELLING sense.

Also, the humanoid mechs, realistically, would not be as combat effective as a hunched low mech, due to center of gravity and all that. Just using physics, an LRM20 salvo to the chest is far more likely to knock over a Black Night than it is to knock over, say, a Bushwhacker or Nova.

However I am not worried about the game losing its military sim feel. Mechs are not agile robots, but heavy, lumbering war machines, and I am sure that PGI understands this as much as any other fan.

[Catharsis]

Peiper, on 15 March 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Alright, two comments, the serious one first:
Most of the first mechs they've shown us aren't so hot. HOWEVER, these are the first ones to be out, and business-wise, it's better to start with the Ford Pinto and move up to the Dodge Viper. If you have a Viper, why would you want a pinto? So, I'm sure we'll see some great mechs coming out as the game goes on.

This is a very good point. If I had access to a personal favorite mech, like say, the Stormcrow, or (if we are to stick to the Spheres) an Uziel or a Bushwhacker, I would probably never use any of the other mechs in the same weight class. I would rather have a limited selection of "less popular" mechs to start with so I would be forced to work with what I have got in order to earn the right to use much more awesome mechs later on. This also encourages better piloting skills, because instead of being able to jump right into an assault mech, one might have to learn the ropes in a light mech before they have enough cash even for a heavy.

[LordDeathStrike]

Catharsis, on 16 March 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

This is a very good point. If I had access to a personal favorite mech, like say, the Stormcrow, or (if we are to stick to the Spheres) an Uziel or a Bushwhacker, I would probably never use any of the other mechs in the same weight class. I would rather have a limited selection of "less popular" mechs to start with so I would be forced to work with what I have got in order to earn the right to use much more awesome mechs later on. This also encourages better piloting skills, because instead of being able to jump right into an assault mech, one might have to learn the ropes in a light mech before they have enough cash even for a heavy.

getting to elite 2 status in a chasis gives you a sizeable bonus compared to a fresh pilot in a heavier mech. if you look up the xp system youll see what im talking about.

pilot xp is on you, chasis and variant xp is on the specific mech, so if you level up your jenner or hunchback too elite 2 status for the variant you love, you will run circles around the guy in the atlas that has no chasis xp, you would be dangerous if he was elite, the fact that he isnt makes him stand no chance outside of a lucky hit.

[Catharsis]

LordDeathStrike, on 16 March 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

getting to elite 2 status in a chasis gives you a sizeable bonus compared to a fresh pilot in a heavier mech. if you look up the xp system youll see what im talking about. pilot xp is on you, chasis and variant xp is on the specific mech, so if you level up your jenner or hunchback too elite 2 status for the variant you love, you will run circles around the guy in the atlas that has no chasis xp, you would be dangerous if he was elite, the fact that he isnt makes him stand no chance outside of a lucky hit.

ooohh
I like this system. It is sort of what I had in mind when thinking about how an XP system could be implemented. It makes sense too. You obviously would have a point scale for your own pilot's "skill", but you also should have a scale representing your skill with a certain chassis.

[Ezekial Karn]

Well what I would really like to see is a massive variety of mechs to pick from. If they had the time to import every mech from the books dating back to the golden age I would be stoked!..

I have played Mechwarrior for neigh on 20 years and im not talking the video games I am talking tabletop! I enjoy the video games too mind you but yeah always felt they were a little lacking in the variety department that Table top and other turn based mechwarrior games excelled in.

Edited by Ezekial Karn, 16 March 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[Harlequin Wolf]

Ezekial Karn, on 16 March 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Well what I would really like to see is a massive variety of mechs to pick from. If they had the time to import every mech from the books dating back to the golden age I would be stoked!..

I have played Mechwarrior for neigh on 20 years and im not talking the video games I am talking tabletop! I enjoy the video games too mind you but yeah always felt they were a little lacking in the variety department that Table top and other turn based mechwarrior games excelled in.

Tell it on the mountain. I'm a longtime player too, and the succession wars was always my favourite Battletech era.

[LordDeathStrike]

Ezekial Karn, on 16 March 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Well what I would really like to see is a massive variety of mechs to pick from. If they had the time to import every mech from the books dating back to the golden age I would be stoked!..

I have played Mechwarrior for neigh on 20 years and im not talking the video games I am talking tabletop! I enjoy the video games too mind you but yeah always felt they were a little lacking in the variety department that Table top and other turn based mechwarrior games excelled in.

your truely great pilots will be elite 2 in several chasis to counter any situation, getting full elite xp status in a chasis for all the bonus's will take a great deal of time and effort heh.

remember there is a hardpoint mechlab, the only diff between alot of mechs becomes the skins since you can take a similar weight chasis with a similar payload (say energy arm weapons, shoulder missiles, torso guns) and modify it to your liking wtihin weight limits and putting weapons in the area they go into by type, speeding or slowing it via engine size, and changing armor amount to suit needs as well within max chasis weight.

i can work with the centurion commando catapult and atlas, so i will do so, they arent my favorite skins (those would be wolfhound, bushwhacker, warhammer, and zues) but ill make due.

[Yuba Frank]

What I'm seeing so far doesn't bother me a bit. I am a fan of the older designs. I can see myself in a Centurion or a Hunchback. I'm just happy that I'll be able to play the game again soon.

[palebear]

I think that starting with the more common (and possibly least exciting) mechs is a good idea - draw it out, and build some tension. When new mechs are released it will actually mean something, rather than blowing the whole load in the first two weeks of release.

Savvy and interesting is how I'd describe the mech selection, so far.