277 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

What happened? The player base got dumbererer(See World of Tanks, BFBC2, BF3, CoD:MW#)....the overall skill of players went through the floor, companies are only out to make a quick buck and the players are to dumb to know the difference. So a company will release a **** game that has great graphics, lots of boom, and requires absolutely NO skill to play, but it will be chalk full of bugs and really no content to it..but since it has great graphics and its insanely easy, the 15yr old kiddies who play the games dont care. I def noticed the games have gotten pretty LAME..Battlefield Bad company 2 was an example of this. I played 2142 for prolly 20K battles, and that game required aiming, tactics, teamwork and what not. Come BFBC2, you can just RUSH out in front of a TANK, take a direct round to the face, strafe it wit han RPG and just keep on running. If you use a MG, just spam rounds and stuff dies...its like the epitome of BS and little kid easy.

I hope MWO really takes time to make a GOOD game, not just one to make them a quick buck....make it sorta hard, great game play, work on the bugs, add quality content and listen to the dang playerbase.....of coruse, what I said above about the player bases in general being dumbereererrererr....yeah...oops...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 13 August 2012 - 08:06 AM.

[Bansheedragon75]

JFlash49, on 13 August 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

They are sponging off other persons ideas and not improving it. it needs to stop and they need to actually work on the games and not the graphics. I know some persons might disagree that graphics are important too, yes it is, but when the game is all about graphics its not gonna be good, if guys back in the 70's 80's, could have fun with basic geometric symbols on a screen it goes to show you games arent always about graphics. Lastly, i think its because most of the veteran game creators are dying out, they knew what games were meant to be like.
(feel free to correct me if im wrong)

I would say that good games are as much gameplay as it is graphics if not more so.
If you could make a game like they did back in the 90's and combine it with the graphics of today, how do you think that would be?
Imagine having both great graphics and great gameplay.

[TLBFestus]

Did you know that in the past year or so that video gaming has passed the movie industry in terms of income/gross receipts?

Once this hobby of ours started making some people rich, the big guns started paying attention and moved in. Just like Hollywood they don't like taking big risks when they can go for the "sure thing", in other words sequels or franchises that stand upon the shoulders of a well executed original. They don't have to be better, they just have to be "good enough" to get the return crowds.

Of course there are exceptions to this, where a franchise is consistently good, but at the same time "good" and "original" often do not go hand in hand.

Now, they of course know their market as well, and I'm saying this with some trepidation as I don't mean to offend, and that market is the younger cohort, the ones I refer to as "twitch" gamers. Not just in terms of reaction time, but attention span.

I'm no slouch, but I'm 52 now and have lost my edge to some degree in terms of reaction time. Herein lies the difference. While my reaction times have dropped a bit, my patience hasn't (at least in terms of video gaming). I think a lot of the younger crowd expect or demand constant stimulation from their games, and since they are legion, they get it.

Short re-spawn times, near instant contact with opponents, constant rewards in terms of perks, upgrades etc. Not just in gaming either, I watch my kids in amazement as they constantly send and receive texts, post on facebook, tweet, etc.. I'm astounded by how much some people need to be stimulated.

That's what the gaming industry is giving us, because that's what the audience is demanding.

Oh yeah, I agree with all the other stuff about patching etc., too but I didn't see anyone making mention of this aspect of the issue. Anyone here remember the arcade game DRAGONS LAIR? It was a laser disc arcade game in those things called video arcades (way back when...) and it had simply unbelievable graphics for its day. Sucked in huge amounts of quarters at the time. Problem was, there really wasn't a game to it, it was just a cartoon that required you to press a button once in awhile, and if your timing was off, you lost and needed another quarter. Now that I think of it, it was probably the harbinger of doom for video gaming. All graphics, no substance.

That's why I'm looking forward to MWO. Big lumbering mechs, single life per round, time spent working on mech loadouts. It's positively sedate, but requires thinking.

Edited by TLBFestus, 13 August 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[Riin Suul]

that video is so true... and incredibly depressing because of it.
I have been boycotting EA since Origin came out... which sucks, because I REALLY wanted to play battlefield 3.

[Bansheedragon75]

And what about games that requires you to actually think and work to progress?

One example is Myst, if anyone remember that, where you actually had to think to progress.
Then there is one of my All time series of Final Fantasy, FIrst one I played was FF 7, and it got me hooked all the way to to FF 10.

The series from 7-9 was actually good, 10 not so much, then 11 came as online.
12 was a step up from 10 again, followed by 13 which was just a game on rails literally.
13 had none of the wide open world where you could explore to your hearts content, you are just guided along like a train on rails.

As for MWO, I cant wait for it to come out, If they can make it even half as good as they promise, I think we will have a great and fun game for years to come.
Hopefully that will also give them the fund to make more MW/BT games.
I for one would like to see a single player MW game at some point as well, not that I have anything against online PVP play, I just like both aspects.

[Anixantheas]

Loved a lot of the old games. Been raiding my old games bin in the storage room and trying to get any of them to work. Dosbox is my friend.

Still waiting on:
Master of Magic 2
Alpha Centauri 2
A GOOD sequel to Master of Orion
Older games like "Star Command" or "Alien Legacy"
Dangit, I want to see a good old fashion Sierra game like Leisure Suit Larry or Space Quest

[ZealotTheFallen]

Greed, and no original thinking has destroyed gaming EA number one destroyer of games and the squirrels that work for them.

[Squeak]

guys, lets be honest here, its not the game that are lower quality its us.

as a consumer the average gamer know more about the quality of gameing now then they used to, we know the diffrence between good and bad now.

before it didnt take much to please us, and as the complexty of games increases the more common bugs become.

so i dont think its that the quality is going down i think its that we are more picky and its easyer to have a bug then it used to be.

and dont forget old games where buggy to, all the real poppular ones had at least one game breaking bug and most had more, we just ignored it back then is all

[CocoaJin]

Woska, on 13 August 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

The modern game is much more about the graphics and whatever "innovative" feature the developer has come up with.

Back in the day when graphics were heavily restricted by available technology, the game had to be fun to play. But now you have people that will literally look at the box and say "wow, look at those graphics, I'm going to buy this game" without ever actually knowing what it's about.

Also, the marketing guys have taken on much more power in the process. They set the delivery schedule based on when they think it's the best time to hit the market. So they don't wait for the game to be finished, since they can just patch it later.

Exactly, publishers dont care about long-term success because they know the vast majority of their profits will come from box sales in the first 30 days, most of that in the first 2 weeks. SIcne publishers have their own bottomline and investors to be concerned about, so they force the release when it suits them, not the game.

There is so much fear by the companies not to fail, that they look to copy success, instead of innovating and pushing the enevlope...so we get cookie cutter games, gorgeous, but bland.

No one wants to make a niche product, partly due to the fear issue stated above, but also greed. Every game has to be a homerun now, attarct the most players possible, some how have a draw for everyone, but ends up being great for nobody/good for nothing.

So, we end up with great IPs with fanatical bases that span decades, perverted into half-baked, superficial, broken experiences with game breaking bugs, shallow content and enough depth to old the masses for 3-6 wks, when instead, they could have catered first to the fan base, thus establishing a truly sustainable and re-occurring profit base(even if its small) to build from until eternity. From that strong base, you look to draw new-comers into the niche, like the new generation who doesnt know about the IP.

Case in point. Silent Hunter III was a suprise hit, why? because they catered first to our fan base, built us our game, based on our expectations, fleshed out the experience the fan base deserved for a subject we loved...even whenit meant re-writing the code for a dynamic campaign(actually scraping the linear campaign) On top of that, they made use of great graphics for the time....and then they added optional features that gave less hard-core new comers and those impulse buyers drawn in by the graphics on the box a smoother entrance into the genre.

Because they built our game first, then provided optional features for the larger masses who'd be drawn toward the niche, they had strong fan base who bought the game, but then picked up new comers multitudes in excess of our fan base. The fan base, and its new comers held on to the franchise through what is now two other versions...but why have the last two version consistently decreased in sales, because they abandoned the methods of SHIII and fell into the old broken way of doing things. Constant bugs, shallow content, superficial features and eye-candy as alienated the fan base, the p!ss poor product cant draw any new comers. The franchise is dead except for the fee hard core fans who refuse to pull the cord, and essentially work endlessly to build the game up themselves...the exact people the game should have been building itself for in the first place. These guys are building into the game what the devs should have done from the start.

Oddly, Eastern Europe and Russia is cranking out very good games...pressumably because their gaming developers havent been hamstrung by perverted, hyper-business paradigms that only look at what improves the bottom line for the quarter, for-saking all other concerns outside the three month period they are aiming for.

Edited by CocoaJin, 13 August 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[CCC Dober]

Speaking of dragons, does anybody know what happened to the dev team of Dragon Age once they shipped the first title (a rather recent quality game). I have no idea who was responsible for DA2, but I can't believe it was the same dev team. DA1 was brilliant, DA2 was an abomination. How is that possible? Management buy-out? Devs got kicked out? Both?

[Hammish]

This has been coming for a while now, sadly. More people are just starting to take notice of it, now.

Graphical abilities are more symptomatic, though, than a true cause. The video hit it right on the head: the root cause is companies like EA. Not just with the /current/ business model.. but with the steps they took to get there.

Any gamers out there old enough to remember the original Westwood Studios or Origin (the production house, not the distribution system) know exactly what I'm talking about. Never forget. RIP Westwood.

[Bansheedragon75]

CocoaJin, on 13 August 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

So, we end up with great IPs with fanatical bases that span decades, perverted into half-baked, superficial, broken experiences with game breaking bugs, shallow content and enough depth to old the masses for 3-6 wks, when instead, they could have catered first to the fan base, thus establishing a truly sustainable and re-occurring profit base(even if its small) to build from until eternity. From that strong base, you look to draw new-comers into the niche, like the new generation who doesnt know about the IP.

They did this with my favorite IP, Star trek.
They set out to make an MMO of Start trek, what they made was an online Arcade shooter that just barely touches the canon and lore.

Hammish, on 13 August 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

Any gamers out there old enough to remember the original Westwood Studios or Origin (the production house, not the distribution system) know exactly what I'm talking about. Never forget. RIP Westwood.

I remember those.
One of my all time favorite games series was Wing Commander.
WC 1-4 was really good, WC5 not so much and then they stopped making them.

Command and Conquer 1-3 was good, then they seemed to go out of their way to ruin the series in C&C 4, which I played once and even had to force myself to complete.
Never touched it since.

Edited by Dragonlord, 13 August 2012 - 09:56 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

Hammish, on 13 August 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

This has been coming for a while now, sadly. More people are just starting to take notice of it, now.

Graphical abilities are more symptomatic, though, than a true cause. The video hit it right on the head: the root cause is companies like EA. Not just with the /current/ business model.. but with the steps they took to get there.

Any gamers out there old enough to remember the original Westwood Studios or Origin (the production house, not the distribution system) know exactly what I'm talking about. Never forget. RIP Westwood.

Oh god, why Command and Conquer why?!?!? Why was that abomination Tiberium Twilight allowed to exist?

[SgtMaster]

- being in my mid forties now, I've seen many games come and gone.
Only a few good ones here and there pop up every "couple" of years in between.
Even when the gamers grew older, the companies still targeted the 10-15 year old gamer.

Obviously, both age groups do not see things the same way.

I am still waiting for a new release of RB3D, Red Baron 3D, made by sierra. Seems i will be waiting in my grave...!
I am happy that PGI decided to revive the MechWarrior franchise, tho i think mektek.net take on the MW4 will never be equaled.
I need 3rdView. Will still play 1st, just not as much and as long as i used to.

My approach to games in the past 5 years has been; Free Online Gaming. no longer will i support financially any company that treats me like a child.

[Dervim]

Well it's been all said here. The main reasons are:

1)Concentrating over the top efforts on graphics, while ignoring everything else.

2)In for a buck quick development-doesn't matter weather it's EA(or any other publisher) or the developer himself, the game comes out half baked, still in early beta stages and it goes straight to the market, to make some quick buck.

Also, I'd like to add that there are few more reasons why today's pc games suck big time:

3)DLCs - why give away the whole thing right away, when you can cut it to pieces and sell those piece by piece? And if the game is buggy as hell, well just promise to release a patch together with the first DLC...First day rip-off DLC excluded.

4)Consoles-yes, they are at fault. The majority of devs find it easier to work with consoles, their obsolete and identical hardware. Then they get lazy and forget how it is to develop a game for PC, so they port their "perfectly fine" console game to PC and end up with even more bugs and messed up gameplay then the original console version.

[Shredhead]

Dragonlord, on 13 August 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

I would say that good games are as much gameplay as it is graphics if not more so.
If you could make a game like they did back in the 90's and combine it with the graphics of today, how do you think that would be?
Imagine having both great graphics and great gameplay.

I'll definitely take a look at XCOM: Enemy Unknown coming this year.

[Bansheedragon75]

Shredhead, on 13 August 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

I'll definitely take a look at XCOM: Enemy Unknown coming this year.

Just came over that game myself after reading about MWO and E3, which had a link to IGN where you can vote for most anticipated game 2012.

I just watched the video for that game, but when I looked at the pre-order page I got very concerned about the quality of this game.
What worries me is the fact that its not just released for PC, but for Xbox 360 and PS3 as well.


I'll quote Dervim to explain why I'm so worried.

Dervim, on 13 August 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Consoles-yes, they are at fault. The majority of devs find it easier to work with consoles, their obsolete and identical hardware. Then they get lazy and forget how it is to develop a game for PC, so they port their "perfectly fine" console game to PC and end up with even more bugs and messed up gameplay then the original console version.

The same goes for a revival of another game I played in my younger days, Carrier Command.
This too will me available on console which will probably ruin the game.

I remember the Original Carrier Command, which was a great strategy game, I was hoping the revival of that game would be worth it, now I'm worried it will not live up to its reputation like so many other games.

However I am still keeping my eyes on those 2 games, as well as Command & Conquer Generals 2, in the hopes that at least one of them will be good.

XCOM: Enemy Unknown
Carrier Command: Gaea Mission
Command & Conquer Generals 2

Edited by Dragonlord, 13 August 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[Riin Suul]

Dervim, on 13 August 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

snip
4)Consoles-yes, they are at fault. The majority of devs find it easier to work with consoles, their obsolete and identical hardware. Then they get lazy and forget how it is to develop a game for PC, so they port their "perfectly fine" console game to PC and end up with even more bugs and messed up gameplay then the original console version.

this is very true. we have so many bugs (particularly graphical and performance related) in new games today because the devs write for consoles, and forget that there are more hardware variations out there.

this results in games that fun flawlessly on some computers, and worthlessly on others

[Valaska]

Glad I read your post mate I was about to buy Legends of Pegasus!

[NikkoKilla]

XCOM (the original), XCOM: Terror from the deep, MW2, MW2:Mercs, MW3, Doom 1 and 2.

Kings Quest IV, and the Quest For Glory series were absolutely fantastic. If you guys like XCOM: UFO Defense (the old one, the new one looks like puke to me) check out Xenonauts, going into open beta soon, its a fantastic clone of the original.