137 replies to this topic

[Csypher]

Mech warrior with out clan just does not feel like Mech warrior IMO

[Lightfoot]

Fezzwig, on 17 August 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

I'm just curious, if all things equal and there were no weapon or mech advantages associated with the clans how many of the players would still be so eager to play them? I get the feeling it's all about "I want the biggest baddest..." and not about the lore. Before anyone flames, I know this is a broad statement and there are exceptions. My personal opinion, the game should have started off around 3015 so we could spare ourselves this debate.

This is an MMO, and they, ostensibly, want to follow TT Battletech lore. I say they can't balance canon IS and Clan in an MMO without cross-tech (not canon), but until they figure that out I'll be in my Mad Cat. Ultimately I will merc for whoever is paying the most C-Bills or join whichever unit is most fun.

[Valaska]

How much resources are you giving me? Because 4 Orion's vs 1 Timber Wolf start evening the fight out. Though personally I would pilot the clan mech, so this means clan players will have to play 4x as much and win more to afford their mechs. And in faction warfare, each loss will be near crippling.

[Saber Avalon]

Incunabulum, on 17 August 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

In this case I really have to disagree. Really the clans should have been a marginal military force, filled with propaganda about how great they are and then jumped in to retake the IS and realized *exactly* how big it is. Really, just a footnote in the list of strange things that happened.

Kerensky left with 6 MILLION people and equipment. In 3 centuries the clans somehow managed to split these people up into 22 seperate cultures, colonize 40+ worlds, develop significant industrial capacity, and build up a military that not only could pose a serious challenge to the IS *as a whole* but almost won. Keep in mind that the IS contains something like 600 colonies. Assuming that only 1 out of every 6 has significant industrial and military might, the IS still outguns the clans 2:1.

But unfortunately FASA coulnd't come up with a better backstory for these guys and we've got what we've got.

The reason Kerensky left was because he knew the IS was going to tear itself apart in war, which it did. A major cause of "lostech". The Clans didn't have this, sure they fought with each other for territory, equipment, materials, but they all were still Clan. They worked for the betterment of the clans, mostly their own, but dealings with other clans provided useful advancements for their own clan that they were not capable of achieving on their own. The fighting between each of the clans was more to keep them in battle ready shape for their eventual return to the IS and to take back Terra.

Since the Clans had this focused goal, it makes sense that they were able to build up and accomplish what they did. The IS didn't care about Kerensky coming back as they didn't see it as a threat or an old wives tale. At least not an immediate one, they had to worry about the other houses they were waring with first. Not some group who left and could have all died in unknown space. Kerensky also knew they'd be outnumbered, that's why he put such an emphasis on the warrior caste. Many in the Clans wanted to be warriors due to the benefits and since they pitted clan against clan to keep bettering themselves they created the greatest warriors. On top of that they had trueborns, created in Iron Wombs, so they were literally popping kids out at an accelerated rate.

You have to remember, it wasn't until the end of the invasion that the IS banded together. During the start of it there were houses that didn't want to help fight the clans as they were not invading their territory. Why should they care? Other houses were still fighting with each other and again, didn't care. Until they realized, oh ****, the Clans almost wiped out the Rasalhague Republic, took a chunk of Combine and Lyran space, and were going for the heart of the IS. All in a short period of time. Then they thought... ok, we have to do something about this. Even then, the Battle of Tukayyid saw heavy losses on both sides, even with the IS having mostly caught up in tech by then.

The lore is there, it makes sense. It may just be a little too sci-fi or convenient for some people.

[Saber Avalon]

Lightfoot, on 17 August 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

This is an MMO, and they, ostensibly, want to follow TT Battletech lore. I say they can't balance canon IS and Clan in an MMO without cross-tech (not canon), but until they figure that out I'll be in my Mad Cat. Ultimately I will merc for whoever is paying the most C-Bills or join whichever unit is most fun.

Not this again, this is not an MMO. "A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the internet, and feature at least one persistent world."

This game is a # vs. #, a standard online multiplayer game. Not a massively multiplayer online game. All the players cannot be in the same place at once, there is no persistent world. Even if they add faction warfare if they keep it # vs. # then it's not a true MMO.

[Lightfoot]

Valaska, on 17 August 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

How much resources are you giving me? Because 4 Orion's vs 1 Timber Wolf start evening the fight out. Though personally I would pilot the clan mech, so this means clan players will have to play 4x as much and win more to afford their mechs. And in faction warfare, each loss will be near crippling.

More like 3 Lances vs 2 Stars I think. IS might get bonus amount dropweight. Clan favors speed/loadout over armor in canon. I am assuming the game will support 12v12.

[Lightfoot]

Saber Avalon, on 17 August 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Not this again, this is not an MMO. "A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting hundreds or thousands of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the internet, and feature at least one persistent world."

This game is a # vs. #, a standard online multiplayer game. Not a massively multiplayer online game. All the players cannot be in the same place at once, there is no persistent world. Even if they add faction warfare if they keep it # vs. # then it's not a true MMO.

I think you are incorrect, sir. Early on MWO was stated to have faction combat that would not change traditional boundries, but would be for posession of border systems. Later this system of control will be expanded as the game grows. I don't really know what benefits winning a system will grant the winning units, but that's an MMO by virtue of the fact that all players will be in the same universe, even if they only see it from the cockpit of a mech on a combat drop.

[FERAL TIGER]

I've had the same thought about clans, I don't understand the hype. I feel it's derived from clan tech being lighter, stronger, better range, less heat etc...

in which case, of course everyone would want that, but I hope they allow MWO to develop naturally for a year or so before throwing a major expansion into the fray.

[Leon Kousenberg]

Clans vs IS.. well alot of the clan mechs do have a nice look to them, they look cool and are OP. IS mechs have that look of wow you got hit in the face with the ugly tree and some how its ok.,

Me personaly I see the clans as some have said major league sh@ibags with enough ego and attitude spawned by there over powered tech created so that the game designers and writters could bring up the tech levels of the IS.

Now MWo will start just before the invasion so we have a year or so before we see clan mechs. How they will be introduced is yet to be announced and I expect to see plenty of posts made about forming player controlled clans.

Now what does seem to be obvious is that none of us are going to be able to lay claim to leadership of any of the Merc/House Units or Clans. More than likely when players are allowed to ally themselves with clans latter, they will have to work there way up from a simple mechwarrior, fight for a blood name, and maybe if its allowed Kahn status.

For us IS players we can either be part of an official unit, or create our own Merc Companies and start our very own legends.


I better stop before I start rambling more than normal

[rdelta78]

Interesting, but i have one question...
Why the heck all those empires fight for those stupid territories? For lost tech or for pride? I ask this because i know how big space is, so why cant they just take the other systems, the galaxy is really big? Who cares if the opposing faction gets the Terra planet which may be in ruins and the only viable thing there "The ComStar" may self destruct in first site of trouble.
And another question...
So when the clans attack do the IS unite and fight back the invaders as allies or is it just 1 or 2 empires that actually fight independently and the other just give them some weapons and such? Were they trying to do multi-national force, coordinated attacks and logistics?

[IceSerpent]

Incunabulum, on 16 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Why are so many people in love with them to the extent that even thoug MW:O is still in beta they keep asking when clans will be introduced.

For me, even though clan tech is teh awesomes, who the heck can have a hardon for a society with a rigid class system that eschews scientific and technological advance for the ability to be the best dueller around, to the point that they suck in large-scale warfare?

We have a society with rigid class system that has been fighting large scale wars within itself and basically bombed itself back into the stone age. We also have another society with equally rigid class system that has been limiting its battles for the most of its history and, as a result, is more technologically advanced and is less likely to cause a lot of collateral damage among its civilian population/infrastructure. Which one would you choose?

[Hayden]

IceSerpent, on 17 August 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

We have a society with rigid class system that has been fighting large scale wars within itself and basically bombed itself back into the stone age. We also have another society with equally rigid class system that has been limiting its battles for the most of its history and, as a result, is more technologically advanced and is less likely to cause a lot of collateral damage among its civilian population/infrastructure. Which one would you choose?

That second one you mention? Yeah, they end up basically doing the same as the former. Familiar with the "Wars of Reaving"?

Anyway, I for one hope that they put off the clans as long as they can: once they're in MWO is going to be a balancing train wreak. Either they'll maintain the unholy advantage the clan weapons enjoyed (Read: arms race, which the dev team has said it hopes to avoid), or they'll try to re-balance them, which leads to other problems.

Edited by Hayden, 17 August 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[ZivyTerc]

Hayden, on 16 August 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

As a guy firmly stuck in 3025, I think the dev team is missing the boat by starting the game so close to the clan invasion. They could have easily spent a year or two in the 3025-3049 era, which has the advantage of being much easier to balance than the mess after 3050. The clans are too popular not to include, but I think by chomping at the bit for clans so early the community misses out on some of the most easily balanced elements of BT canon. I suspect the timeline will only go forward from the release date, and so I and others like me can kiss off the 4th Succession War, War of 3039, and the numerous other small scale conflicts taking place in this time frame.

Completely agree; introduction of clans will most likely mean 90% of people will be running in clan mechs with clan weaponry :-/

[Impossible Wasabi]

Damn the Inner Sphere and hang the Clans, I shall remain a free and honorable pirate.

From the edge of the Periphery,
Merle

[IceSerpent]

Hayden, on 17 August 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

That second one you mention? Yeah, they end up basically doing the same as the former. Familiar with the "Wars of Reaving"?

Familiar, of course. One society goes through a nasty all-out war, figures out that this sort of fighting gets them nowhere and reorganizes. The other keeps fighting for centuries with no end in sight.

Quote

Anyway, I for one hope that they put off the clans as long as they can: once they're in MWO is going to be a balancing train wreak. Either they'll maintain the unholy advantage the clan weapons enjoyed (Read: arms race, which the dev team has said it hopes to avoid), or they'll try to re-balance them, which leads to other problems.

Re-balancing doesn't lead to that many problems actually - PGI is already changing IS weapons, changing Clan weapons won't be much different.

[Valaska]

rdelta78, on 17 August 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Interesting, but i have one question...
Why the heck all those empires fight for those stupid territories? For lost tech or for pride? I ask this because i know how big space is, so why cant they just take the other systems, the galaxy is really big? Who cares if the opposing faction gets the Terra planet which may be in ruins and the only viable thing there "The ComStar" may self destruct in first site of trouble.
And another question...
So when the clans attack do the IS unite and fight back the invaders as allies or is it just 1 or 2 empires that actually fight independently and the other just give them some weapons and such? Were they trying to do multi-national force, coordinated attacks and logistics?

I like this guy! A question that isn't bashing the Clans or IS! Good man.

Because when they start moving away from the HPG networks, there's not much i the way of communication or organization, and moves away from established civilian lagrange jump points. Logistics and development gets scarce, and since the InnerSphere fights amongst themselves so much there's not much ability to expand without risking their core worlds. You'd also have to go through the pirate infested periphery worlds! And inhabitable worlds are few to come by as well.

Basically, the InnserSphere is the cradle of man, its a TINY smeck in the Milky Way Galaxy (one of the largest galaxies we've EVER found mind you, AW YEAH) and expansion is a possibility, but not feasible due to years of inter warfare and reliance on the HPG network, and Lagrange jump points. Why risk an entire fleet of supplies and equipment, personnel when you are at risk ont he homefront.

[TG Xarbala]

Valaska, on 17 August 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

I like this guy! A question that isn't bashing the Clans or IS! Good man.

Because when they start moving away from the HPG networks, there's not much i the way of communication or organization, and moves away from established civilian lagrange jump points. Logistics and development gets scarce, and since the InnerSphere fights amongst themselves so much there's not much ability to expand without risking their core worlds. You'd also have to go through the pirate infested periphery worlds! And inhabitable worlds are few to come by as well.

Basically, the InnserSphere is the cradle of man, its a TINY smeck in the Milky Way Galaxy (one of the largest galaxies we've EVER found mind you, AW YEAH) and expansion is a possibility, but not feasible due to years of inter warfare and reliance on the HPG network, and Lagrange jump points. Why risk an entire fleet of supplies and equipment, personnel when you are at risk ont he homefront.

Remember too that the Terran Hegemony actually discouraged further explorations beyond the reach of their Water Fleets to keep colonies within reach and dependent on Earth for a while. They encouraged the misperception that only those worlds within a couple hundred light-years from Earth were worthwhile and that everything else was worthless. Note that this notion is completely absurd and the slow development of "Deep Periphery" worlds and the likes of the Clans disprove this nonsense by their very existence, but people in the Inner Sphere (and even, ironically, some of the Clans) believe it because it's "common knowledge."

The reason the Periphery is pirate territory is because the Hegemony didn't want to expand further than it could reasonably hold onto and those Periphery states are on the far end of that.

This, and because ComStar deliberately armed pirates and bandits to harass the edges of the Successor States and the smaller Periphery states. Remember, ComStar wanted to drive everyone into the Stone Age so they could step in as the technological "saviors" of mankind.

[Sal Preacher Smith]

Great discussion.

I can't wait for the tech I take from their cold dead trigger fingers, help carve out a home with apple pie and a cup a joe served daily upon retirement before going fly fishing.

In the process it will be like the Hulk and Loki when proclaiming he was a god that I intend to do to the clanners.

[Reitar]

Incunabulum, on 16 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

who the heck can have a hardon for a society with a rigid class system that eschews scientific and technological advance for the ability to be the best dueller around, to the point that they suck in large-scale warfare?

Internet vido gamers, nuff said. BLAH BLAH YADA YADA BLAH MY WIN/KILL LOSS/DEATH IS SO MUCH BETTER THEN YOURS! YOU SIR, SUCK GLUTEUS MAXIMUS OF ORNERY FARM QUADRUPEDS USED AS PACK ANIMALS!!! and the OP is correct, those internet video gamers suck in large-scale social conventions warfare as it becomes a sniping contest to to measure their self worth / length over a video game

[rdelta78]

Aha ... so if a house wants to colonize the systems beyond IS, they have to first deal with ComStar, learn its technologies for deep space communication and on top of that protect from anyone, who wants their core planets.

I looked at Wiki and saw that the periphery is fragmented into different zones and there were "holes" or spaces between them. If, lets say, one of the houses lunched an expedition through those uncontrolled spaces, could the expedition manage to avoid many if the hostile pirate territories and fly away from the Peripheries into the other regions of space? The fleet could be medium in size, so that it doesn't affect much the economy or the front lines. I think it could be possible and if i were a head of a house, i'd think for plan B, if the destroy-all-other-houses-plan doesn't succeed. I'm debating this because from what i've read neither the clans, nor the IS houses are thinking for colonizing other planets, away from the IS. Yes, the logistics and supplies would be problematic but if a house manages to conquer new far away territories and keep them as a secret until they can unleash hell with biggest armies ever created in secrecy.

So for why clans are the somewhat a fashion, i think cause they are the guys who have the edge over everyone, doing what the IS houses should have done a long time ago: Kick butt and conquer like a Boss. But still attacking the IS to liberate Terra, in my opinion is worthless. So to sum everything... i think everyone are somewhat ... ah forget it, lets everyone just enjoy giant smashing robots and burning fields of destruction! Hell yeah

Edited by rdelta78, 18 August 2012 - 05:44 AM.