137 replies to this topic

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

SilentSooYun, on 16 August 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

This. A thousand times this.
Maybe (maybe) one or two are true diehard Clan roleplayers and will follow zellbrigen to the bitter end (or at least until they start taking damage), but the vast, vast, VAST majority will be your standard-issue Munchkin looking for the sweet tech and the easy win.

I assure you, the Black Wolves WILL be following Zell once we join the Clans. However be warned, the second you prove dishonorable (two Catapults and an Atlas attacking a single 'Mech) we WILL cease using Zell and destroy you with whatever it takes. After all, we are Wolves.

[Star Ace]

TG Xarbala, on 16 August 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Indeed. And at least it's not a Warhawk. TComps were bad enough, but then some people feel the need to attach Pulses to 'em. It only moves 4/6 and lacks some of the ludicrous range of other Clan Assaults so it's manageable. It helps that its variants have HAGs as main guns and anything a HAG can do a smattering of CLRMs of combined equal damage rating can do with more weight efficiency. On tabletop anyway. In stock it's not a supremely optimized Clan machine but it's still a TComp Clanpulse boat.

It is noteworthy that under the newer rules, such Warhawks (or any other similarly equipped 'Mech) can no longer make aimed shots with the Targeting Computer and Pulse Lasers (although the significant -3 bonus for normal attacks remains.) This seemingly minor rule change is very significant, and a welcome edition to the old rules.

IS also gets a heavier/bulkier TComp much later, which is probably irrelevant for the sakes of MWO.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 August 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Rejarial, did you ever play the game from the Jade Falcon side? Becoming Khan was a major major ******!

Kurita is a good fit if you cannot play Clan. Great chapter in Wolf on the Border where the Dragoon's are Challenging the warriors of the DCMS to Clan honor combat. It was a first look at how Clans were going to be doing things! The Kurita soldiers did well.

Glad you threw in that qualifier "Most Often". Clanners were a very warriorcentric society. Where Might made right, It was to me quite similar to (if not exaggerated) Samurai mentality. I find that quite Honorable, as I do House Kurita.

I did, but, I do not recall how far I got on the Falcon side of things. I remember beating the game from the Wolf perspective tho XD

[Monolith]

WAR ArkAngel, on 16 August 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

The mechs look so much more badass. Shadowcat? Madcat? Masakari? Vulture? Diashi? I mean...come on. I like my chicken leg mechs... and the clans have the best ones.

Mmmmmmm.... chicken.

[Zalikar]

Incunabulum, on 16 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Why are so many people in love with them to the extent that even thoug MW:O is still in beta they keep asking when clans will be introduced.

For me, even though clan tech is teh awesomes, who the heck can have a hardon for a society with a rigid class system that eschews scientific and technological advance for the ability to be the best dueller around, to the point that they suck in large-scale warfare?

It can't be about the possibility of conflict - the smallest IS polity has more going on in this area than any of the clans.

Eschews scientific and technological advance? How do you get that? Clan Tech is superior to IS Tech. They also have been practicing genetic engineering for centuries, where the IS still has problems with global epidemics on some outlying worlds. The Clans go out of their way to avoid killing scientists and technicians, where the IS factions are perfectly happy to destroy everything and everyone in a rival factory (pretty much one of the big reasons their tech is a few hundred years behind the Clans).

But with all of that said, many people tend to like the Clans based on their codes of conduct in battle. Of course, there are nearly an equal number of people that like the Clans due to the surperior firepower they offer. Really, the Clans should have wiped the IS clean, but FASA realized way to late that they created a monster and pulled some bullshit to stop them....

[Cordel Ordo]

Monolith, on 17 August 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Mmmmmmm.... chicken.

I've heard if you cook a Clan mech long enough with an IS Flamer they start to actually taste like chicken.

[GusTheNPG]

MadCat all the way!!!!!!

[Fezzwig]

I'm just curious, if all things equal and there were no weapon or mech advantages associated with the clans how many of the players would still be so eager to play them? I get the feeling it's all about "I want the biggest baddest..." and not about the lore. Before anyone flames, I know this is a broad statement and there are exceptions. My personal opinion, the game should have started off around 3015 so we could spare ourselves this debate.

[Aescwulf]

If I was to play as a Clansman I would play it for the lore but I won't play as a clan, well I'm not playing as a IS faction I'm playing as a Merc

[Evinthal]

Star Ace, on 16 August 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

It is noteworthy that under the newer rules, such Warhawks (or any other similarly equipped 'Mech) can no longer make aimed shots with the Targeting Computer and Pulse Lasers (although the significant -3 bonus for normal attacks remains.) This seemingly minor rule change is very significant, and a welcome edition to the old rules.

IS also gets a heavier/bulkier TComp much later, which is probably irrelevant for the sakes of MWO.

Yeah, the IS Targeting computer came about in 3067 after the Federated Suns reverse engineered it. So the Inner Sphere has a long time to go before they can get one.

I have to agree with aimed shots not being allowed with T.Comp + Pulse. It was a much needed change and indeed is more significant than it would appear to be. The other really good change from the newest rule book is how Anti-missile systems work. 1 shot of ammo per volley of missiles and that volley takes a -4 on cluster hits table. No more 2d6 ammo per shot, and better yet no more 2d6 ammo wasted on an SRM-2!

Cordel Ordo, on 17 August 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

I've heard if you cook a Clan mech long enough with an IS Flamer they start to actually taste like chicken.

The problem with this is, chicken tastes like everything and nothing all at the same time.

[Incunabulum]

Zalikar, on 17 August 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Eschews scientific and technological advance? How do you get that? Clan Tech is superior to IS Tech. They also have been practicing genetic engineering for centuries, where the IS still has problems with global epidemics on some outlying worlds. The Clans go out of their way to avoid killing scientists and technicians, where the IS factions are perfectly happy to destroy everything and everyone in a rival factory (pretty much one of the big reasons their tech is a few hundred years behind the Clans).

But with all of that said, many people tend to like the Clans based on their codes of conduct in battle. Of course, there are nearly an equal number of people that like the Clans due to the surperior firepower they offer. Really, the Clans should have wiped the IS clean, but FASA realized way to late that they created a monster and pulled some bullshit to stop them....

The clans, over three hundred years, merely managed to maintain the tech they left with. Yes, the IS destroyed a lot but they still had a strong scientific research base. The clans dumped most research outside of eugenics and keep researchers (and anyone else other than warriors) in lower valued tiers of their rigid class system.

After the clan invasion the IS was able to bring its tech level up to near parity with the clans and then overtake them in some areas.

And the whole destroying production and research facilities and personnel willy-nilly is actually a pre-3025 thing. By the time BT opens the resurrected Ares Accords have mostly put a stop to it. What you have with the clans is a different (not necessarily better) way of settling political disputes through small scale warfare that is hugely more structured than IS combat.

[Incunabulum]

Evinthal, on 17 August 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

I have to agree with aimed shots not being allowed with T.Comp + Pulse. It was a much needed change and indeed is more significant than it would appear to be.

I'm not a big fan of this rule - it treats pulse lasers as a distinctly different weapon from the other lasers. I would have prefered to hav ethe damage drop off over distance - you still get to hit all the time with the PL's but you don't do as much damage per shot.

And I still don't understand why you can't use TC with LBX rounds - I can see not being able to aim at specific parts and you will still hav ethe scatter but the TC should at leas tmake it more likely that you're going to hit *something.

[Incunabulum]

Zalikar, on 17 August 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Really, the Clans should have wiped the IS clean, but FASA realized way to late that they created a monster and pulled some bullshit to stop them....

In this case I really have to disagree. Really the clans should have been a marginal military force, filled with propaganda about how great they are and then jumped in to retake the IS and realized *exactly* how big it is. Really, just a footnote in the list of strange things that happened.

Kerensky left with 6 MILLION people and equipment. In 3 centuries the clans somehow managed to split these people up into 22 seperate cultures, colonize 40+ worlds, develop significant industrial capacity, and build up a military that not only could pose a serious challenge to the IS *as a whole* but almost won. Keep in mind that the IS contains something like 600 colonies. Assuming that only 1 out of every 6 has significant industrial and military might, the IS still outguns the clans 2:1.

But unfortunately FASA coulnd't come up with a better backstory for these guys and we've got what we've got.

[Graefin Zeppelin]

I am a die hard fan of Clan Pothead Parrot.

[Kristen Redmond]

Because they remind me of Chivalric Knights. They are the bad guys but not the bad guys. There is no good or evil just two points of view. I prefer the Clan point of view.

[RainbowToh]

TG Xarbala, on 16 August 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Even Clan Wolf was dumb enough to rely on a supply train to the Homeworlds after the Clan Invasion. They honestly didn't think improving the infrastructure of their conquered territories to Clan-level to provide for their own supplies was a good idea. That's right, they'd rather import Dire Wolves across a thousand light-years from home rather than build them in the territory they actually securely owned, that wasn't vulnerable to neighbors on-planet or a single jump away deciding to Trial for 'em.

No one thought the Clan Homeworlds would be discovered that quickly. Beside establishing a certain technological base takes a couple of years. Or maybe they are too arrogant to think to bring up the IS worlds to clan tech base. Who knows,,,,

Edited by RainbowToh, 17 August 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[Zalikar]

Incunabulum, on 17 August 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

In this case I really have to disagree. Really the clans should have been a marginal military force, filled with propaganda about how great they are and then jumped in to retake the IS and realized *exactly* how big it is. Really, just a footnote in the list of strange things that happened.

Kerensky left with 6 MILLION people and equipment. In 3 centuries the clans somehow managed to split these people up into 22 seperate cultures, colonize 40+ worlds, develop significant industrial capacity, and build up a military that not only could pose a serious challenge to the IS *as a whole* but almost won. Keep in mind that the IS contains something like 600 colonies. Assuming that only 1 out of every 6 has significant industrial and military might, the IS still outguns the clans 2:1.

But unfortunately FASA coulnd't come up with a better backstory for these guys and we've got what we've got.

The backstory initially give for the Clans by FASA was a bit weak in many areas. Then it got really muddled for a while due to some of the novels that came out. Hell, a lot of Battletech canon and lore got punked by some of the novels.

I completely agree that the IS has greater numbers than the Clans, but there is a lot of distrust or outright hatred between the various Great Houses that makes it difficult for them to work well together. Taking out the whole ComStar bull, the IS would have eventually come together enough to stop the Clans, but doubtfully before they had taken Terra. Heck, the "liberation" of Terra was really the primary goal of the invasion to begin with. But who knows how far the Crusader Clans would have taken it. Or what the Warden Clans would have done, for that matter.

While it's fun to debate such things, all it does is take us away from blowing each other up .

[Saber Avalon]

Incunabulum, on 16 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Why are so many people in love with them to the extent that even thoug MW:O is still in beta they keep asking when clans will be introduced.

For me, even though clan tech is teh awesomes, who the heck can have a hardon for a society with a rigid class system that eschews scientific and technological advance for the ability to be the best dueller around, to the point that they suck in large-scale warfare?

It can't be about the possibility of conflict - the smallest IS polity has more going on in this area than any of the clans.

Clan Diamond Shark (Formerly Sea Fox then renamed again Sea Fox) wasn't so rigid with their caste system. In fact the Merchant caste pretty much ran that clan. The warriors were trained in mercantile negotiations so as to be sensitive to their nature and it helped with their bidding during batchall. In addition they were very scientific and were the creators or assisted in creating a lot of the major clan technology. Not just military technology either, the Iron Wombs and HarJel (stuff used by elementals to seal armour breaches and wounds, also used on ships to seal hull damage.) They even converted most of their warship fleet to be a stand in for a homeworld, living on their ships. Stripping them of weapons and armour to fit more living space.

Clans are not just the blood thirsty, kill everything in sight, people they appeared to be. If you read books about the Clans you find they may have a very different culture based around rituals and honor (which is kind of cool and respectable in itself) but they still work towards the betterment of human kind. The warrior caste is the most prominent as they do all the fighting and their goal was to invade and take back Terra. The other castes however, are very much normal human beings, trueborn or not. They still have emotions, they still enjoy sports (there was a lacrosse game going on in one of the books, granted more violent, but still), they drink and eat, they even care about each other.

[Valaska]

Fezzwig, on 17 August 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

I'm just curious, if all things equal and there were no weapon or mech advantages associated with the clans how many of the players would still be so eager to play them? I get the feeling it's all about "I want the biggest baddest..." and not about the lore. Before anyone flames, I know this is a broad statement and there are exceptions. My personal opinion, the game should have started off around 3015 so we could spare ourselves this debate.

I would, to be honest. The Clans have a society that I thoroughly enjoy. Its extremely hard lined, you are constantly having to prove your worth, constantly tested and either you are seen as a horrible failure and are left behind, or you succeed in a big way. The trials, the fighting everything is just so different from what we've got now the allure of something exotic is just too strong to ignore you know?

Oh yay, we've got a feudal house system with a bunch of people whom are too busy bickering over territory and nearly wipe themselves out every century in succession wars and thats cool and all, but why would you want to play run of them mill when there is something alien and fairly different from everything else out there previously? Clans really were a strange and unique twist on a society, even for Sci-Fi.

Where it was just the innersphere I had fun with it, I enjoyed it and ran with it. I went from Eradani Light Horse to Federated Suns and dug in, but when the Clans hit the literature finally stopped their stagnation and new things were happening. The entire universe was interesting again and there was controversy, these overweight pimple poppers who went to Renaissance fairs shouting about how stupid the clans were in tournaments and they spend hundreds of dollars trying to make even "better" and "crack" forces to take those clan players down.
I actually have seen fist fights break out between IS hardliners and a Clan player... Unfortunately for them that said Clan player was former Canadian Forces and the IS guys (two of them went after the guy) and the fight was pretty short lived yet humorous. It really brought money and players back into the game even it if was for the "wrong" reasons.

Plus, I went through basic etc, but that instructor in MW2 is still a major hardass lol.

[Lightfoot]

Clan weapons weigh less, shoot farther, take up less space. For instance Clan LRMs weigh about half of what IS LRMs weigh. Clan Dbl Heatsinks need 2 criticals, IS Dbl Heatsinks need 3. And when the word "Heavy" precedes a Clan weapon they mean more damage.

75 ton Inner Sphere Orion: 1 AC 10, 1 SRM4, 1 LRM15, 2xmedium lasers, 64.3 KPH

75 ton Clan Madcat: 2xER Large Lasers, 2xER Medium Lasers, 1xMedium Pulse Laser, 2xLRM-20s, 2xMachine Guns, 86.4 KPH.

Now the Canon TT says no cross-tech, especially at first contact. Which 'mech do you want?