161 replies to this topic

[BrokenGlytch]

I'm pleased to see this topic take off while remaining civil. That's largely the only way to get something positive moving when it comes to development; a calm discussion. The recurring theme people seem to want so far are scripted missions with the Clans. I think that's a fine goal eventually, but we should aim smaller at first. If there are only 50 employees, it's best not to ask for a whole new game before they're done with this one, you know? It would be better to target something 'reasonable' and let them decide if they want to commit substantial development time to it after seeing how the community likes it.

So, here's what we have to work with;

1) A very capable combat system borrowed entirely from the Battletech board game and previous MechWarrior titles. Damage/Heat/Range values are tweaked a little here and there to account for balance, but the system was largely balanced from nearly 30 years of testing as it was.

2) A system for spawning battlemechs on the field of battle like we do at the start of every match.

3) A system of values for mech chasis to make sure teams are fairly balanced.

4) An AI script that's from some prior stage of development.

5) Three solid maps that have had multiple spawn points over the course of development.


And here's what we would need in terms of new development from the developers;

1) A configuration tool / lobby to setup PvE matches if there is to be any player input other than launch / launch group.

2) A variant of the matchmaking script that would build teams or waves of AI like it already does for arena combat.

3) Either new PvE maps or extra PvE AI Spawn points in existing maps.


And a list of would-be-nice;

1) Some post-game stat tracking for the sake of some group vs group non-combative competition. Rankings, ladder play, etc.


With that mix of what we have and what we'd need, the devs should be able to, with relatively little effort, be able to implement some fairly awesome PvE that only has room to grow in relatively little time. I hear everyone calling for story missions and expansive campaigns; I love me some MechWarrior and just playing MWO makes me nostalgic for it, but I don't see that being likely. That really is the scope of an entirely new game, which could very well happen if MWO is successful and I certainly hope that's the case. In terms of the fears about it becoming grindy or imbalanced, I don't see how the addition of PvE can make it imbalanced and the game is already grindy and I don't see PvE making it more-so. It's simply not necessary. The combat system already exists; all we need is AI pilots, no combat tweaks required. As for the comment about trying to lure the MMORPG crowd in with farming and crafting, I hope that was just a joke . MWO isn't targeting the WoW type crowd and trying to lure them in with features unless they happen to love arena based combat games and/or the MechWarrior / BattleTech franchise, so I don't think you need to worry too much about that.

Once a player team vs AI team / wave mode is added, if it gets enough appeal and play to justify more content, what we can likely expect and should indeed ask for are more scripted missions. One-off historical battles team vs scripted mission element, scenario modes of varying degrees of complexity (defend the base, convoy escort, assassination of a guarded VIP mech, etc) are all perfectly logical children of that basic PvE mode, and very likely a solid souce of revenue. I doubt there's anyone who loves MechWarrior that can honestly say they wouldn't shell out $2-5 for a really awesome scenario map they can play with a team of their MWO buddies recreating an iconic battle from the backstory for example. While the backstory doesn't support the idea of a big boss spider robot, I'm sure they could come up with something somehow...maybe assaulting a fortress full of guns that belches out waves of minions and you don't win until you blow up the core; it would still be teamwork vs a giant entity.

All in all, keep the discussion rolling. Cheers.

Edited by BrokenGlytch, 19 August 2012 - 12:51 AM.

[GreenNonic]

They should not have done it this way, they have nothing to keep people interested, sure the game looks great, it's fun for like a month, and then your off to less boring stuff. they should definitely limit the number of players you can group with, that's just common sense , aside from that , yea i don't like PVP games there is no "reason" to it in my mind, yea, you can shoot , and pilot mechs, but what for? without some kind of objective (and i don't mean capture the flag and attrition) or reason for what I'm doing, it doesn't feel good after you've done it, it's just meh, i got 250,000 c-bills *twirls finger around* so then it gets real boring real fast, "I" don't want to be a mech pilot, i want to imagine I'm a mech pilot, i'll prolly poke around for awhile, see what else happens.

[LackofCertainty]

Everything in Bagheera's post was awesome, but this particular bit is the stuff I want to focus on.

Bagheera, on 18 August 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

Finally: Developer resources. I would rather they make the absolutely best and most fully featured PvP game in their original vision than to have them spread their resources for both PvP and PvE, and excelling at neither.

I understand the appeal for PvE, but I sincerely feel that MW:O is not the place for it.

I want a super solid PvP game. If MWO ends up being a perfect, godly game and is the absolute best it can be, and also the servers produces several pounds of platinum a day as a byproduct of running such a divine game, then maybe PGI could use some of their proceeds to add a PvE mode into the game.

In the real world, I want PGI to put every cent they can spare into making MWO a great PvP game with an endlessly entertaining meta-game in the Community Warfare.



Also, to the people who are billing PvE as a training mode for PvP, I have to say that's an antiquated way of thinking. If MWO has a good matchmaking system, then you won't need a training mode. You'll be matched against players of similar skill, and as you improve as a player you'll get matched against harder opponents so you'll always have a fair fight.

Older PvP games didn't do any matchmaking at all, so higher level people just grind the newbs into dust, but that doesn't need to happen anymore. It still does happen sometimes because devs sometimes fail at making good matchmaking systems, but PGI's talk about how commited they are to tracking player behaviors makes me think they'll get the job done right.

P.S.
Giving me a training mode does not solve matchmaking problems. On the other hand, a well balanced matchmaking system makes training modes unnecessary.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 18 August 2012 - 10:25 PM.

[sabotssnake]

I'm just going to cut and paste a post I made in an earlier thread regarding this subject matter. Some small points could be updated or revised but in general I think it stands as still valid:

"I'm a strong supporter of single player content being added into this game. MWO will either be a success or failure depending upon the choices of the players that choose to play it. Choice is the operative word here as MWO needs to appeal to the greatest player base it can to be successful. By only supporting one style of play over the other ie PvP instead of PvE (or vice versa), you effectively halve the amount of potential player base the game will appeal to and by association half of the potential revenue because the two sides of the argument are highly galvanised in their oppinions of chosen play style.

I define PvE content as a strictly single player experience in an AI contested environment. Not a multiplayer environment with a few AI elements thrown in. AI and versus Player content should be kept seperate unless they opt for the inclusion of some 2-3 additional player co-op style content.

Having given some suggestions on how this single player content could work in a couple of previous PvE/PvP threads, I've come up with some more refined ideas and steps on how a potentially successful single player element could be included.

1, Firstly and most importantly is the need for an effective AI. There are numerous sources of AI sources available that PGI could obtain and tweak for their own purposes to suit this game, so building a specific AI code from the ground up is unnecessary.

2, By taking what assets have already been created and simply adding AI bots, you have an offline version of MWO similar to Call of Duty's multiplayer training mode or MW4 multiplayer bot matches. You have the exactly same ability to play, earn XP and credits, upskill your pilot and mech all as you would in the established PvP mode, but it would be all offline. This works by giving the player the choice of creating an online or offline character at game launch. Depending on what that player decides, the XP and credits earned do not crossover into the other mode so it negates the fear of offline farming for online play. This offline play would be your basic deathmatch or team deathmatch scenario where the player does their own thing pretty much unless the added capability of adding squand command controls similar to those lance and unit commands found in Mech Warrior 4. You could have basic squad control for command skill tree advancement, basic solo play for other skill trees, weapon and equipment configuration test capabilites etc. The dropship respawn mode could also be easily translated into SP content.

3, For those interested, slipping in some co-op support would be usefull after the implementation of the basic single player content as above to further refine bot AI, as well as giving players the chance to engage in small unit tactics and training that could be of use in PvP play. Also there could be the beginnings of simple scripted story driven missions for single and co-op play. Basic fetch, kill, escort missions, that sort of thing.

4, Many PvP supporters state that those interested in PvE content will miss out on the meta-game aspect of MWO and it's community based influences. This is true to some extent but again it can also be translated into single play. Since there has been little in the way of official explanation of how this facet of MWO will work, lets go with the very basic assumtion that it will have elements of either admin or randomly generated contracts for planetary assaults for control of faction worlds, as well as arranged unit v unit matches. This all works because of all the human players supposedly playing as a team to fulfil in-game goals. Obviously the unit v unit matches will not work in a single player environment, but the planetary control side of things can, and this is where the next big step in the SP evolution takes place and also somewhat of a departure from how things are done. MWO has been billed as a simulator with some RPG elements thrown in with regard to how the player's character advances. By increasing the amount of RPG elements to include the use of characterized npc squadmates such as those found in the Mechwarrior 4 campaigns, you replace the need for human squadmates while giving the player the immersion of having distinct teammates. In the beginning hey would simply be a profile pic with basic green stats, during play these NPCs would gain XP and credits as would human players but the single player could allocate skill increases to effectively tailor a unit to their play style, and assign mechs to unit members from a pool of credits. NPCs could also be given basic profiles of play styles eg brawler or scout which would determine certain in game AI traits mimicing their real life counterparts. Obviously this would require a major reworking of the AI and the way in which the meta-game is structured with the inclusion of NPC recruitment and management but would greatly appeal to the single player in keeping them busy running their 'unit', and having far more strategic control over how things progress. The actual planetary map/conquest aspect of the meta-game is much harder to translate. There are several ways of approaching it.

A, Players have a randomly effected planetary map that only works offline. Contracts and 'missions' would be randomly selected relating to the faction or self styled merc group that the player has needed to become. The battles fought would only effect the planetary map for that player so it will over time be very different to the map of anyone playing online PvP.

B, The planetary map could be updated with daily input from the PvP servers mimicing the events that unfold there with admin controlled worlds and events while still keeping the input from single player actions. This would require online connection and begins to take away from the premise of an offline experience.

C, The actual PvP meta-game planetary map actually recognises single player contributions to a small degree via online connection and adds the SP and PvP results together to shape how the map changes. This of course would greatly annoy PvPers who would see the SP input as underskilled, unfair, probably exploiting and counter to their actions. Pff.. for them. Clearly there are many facets of gameplay and mechanics that are as yet unannounced that will probably greatly determine the viability of these meta-game simulcrum suggestions, so they are simply wishful thinking.

5, Mechwarrior 5. Taking what we have been building on, everything is now in place for what should have been in the first place. Online multiplayer, single player v AI, RPG squad control, scripted events and missions that can be strung together into a campaign. All that's missing is some flashy FMVs and it's ready to go.. well at least in my perfect world.

Single player content would not take away from what PGI are trying to do with MWO, but in fact enhance it by offering CHOICE. PvP's main strength is it's human input. It is also it's greatest weakness. SP can allow players to fully experience all that MWO has to offer without these weaknesses, while at the same time allowing SP players the option of becoming interested in PvP through the SP gameplay. SP offers the chance to try and fail without being publicly shamed. A chance to gain skill and confidence in the game mechanics. A chance for expanded revenue since mechbays, mechs, skins etc available in PvP would be available to purchase for use in SP (with regards to the SP model I have suggested above) through an online shop. SP gives a greater spread and distribution of the game. By being offline the player would not suffer bad internet connections, server downtimes, lack of friends online, overseas deployements etc and still being able to play the game on some level. Online connection would only be required to make real money purchases or receive content updates. SP content also allows for a greater introduction of the Battletech universe for those unfamiliar with it. Story telling, great intros and compelling modes of gameplay are all signature trademarks of previous Mechwarrior games which have helped to hook and captivate Battletech fans for decades. In the end the only choice for PGI to make is to give players the CHOICE how to play or MWO will be average at best."

For a while I have been trying to define why this game has gradually lost my interest which is a hard and sad thing for a battletech fan to say, but the thing I have came up with is that MWO lacks soul. As it stands MWO is simply at it's core level mech deathmatch, pure and simple. With previous titles having single player elements a gamer is introduced to the Battletech universe slowly creating an empathy with the universe, it's characters, the history, and the mechs themselves. With MWO you are simply thrown into the crucible of battle with no rhyme or reason why. There is no relevance, no empathy with the universe, just the hope that big stompy mechs will attract and hold a players interest. It's like watching an action movie on mute. Looks pretty but what is it all about? Next channel.

[Thorn Hallis]

GreenNonic, on 18 August 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

They should not have done it this way, they have nothing to keep people interested, sure the game looks great, it's fun for like a month, and then your off to less boring stuff. they should definitely limit the number of players you can group with, that's just common sense , aside from that , yea i don't like PVP games there is no "reason" to it in my mind, yea, you can shoot , and pilot mechs, but what for? without some kind of objective (and i don't mean capture the flag and attrition) or reason for what I'm doing, it doesn't feel good after you've done it, it's just meh, i got 250,000 c-bills *twirls finger around* so then it gets real boring real fast, "I" don't want to be a mech pilot, i want to imagine I'm a mech pilot, i'll prolly poke around for awhile, see what else happens.

You should really start reading a devblogs.

[Renthrak]

Just tossing in a short addition, with regard to the MechZilla boss thing.

In a scenario where there are 'rank and file' AI enemies and a more powerful one at the end, there is already a perfectly canon possibility. It's been in most Mech games to date, and it doesn't seem to be an issue.

So, what's the big bad 'boss' going to be? Easy. The dropship. It's not as if those Mechs were beamed down from orbit ala-Star Trek, and the dropship would need to land anyway to retrieve their deployed force eventually. A dropship is big, tough, and heavily armed. One Mech vs a dropship wouldn't usually be much of a fight, so it satisfies the "C'mon team, let's get him!" arrangement that typical 'boss' battles are made of. At the same time, it doesn't interfere with existing canon and precedent.

It's a standard convention that the dropship needs to power up for lift-off, so there's your time limit (to prevent people from simply plinking away from outside of enemy weapon range for half an hour until it's dead).

The entire scenario of "Eliminate the deployed enemy Mechs, and attempt to destroy the dropship before it escapes" is pretty darn standard for the Battletech setting in the first place. As a bonus, it doesn't require any fancy animations like a brand new Mech would, since it's mostly a static object that just needs turrets and a landing/launch sequence.

One more point, semi-related: for PVP, we're expecting what, 8v8 or 16v16? For a PVE mission, that means all 16 or 32 players could be working together, for a larger-scale experience than would be practical for a PVP server. Just one more little benefit.

The work load for implementing PVE alongside PVP shouldn't be too large in this case. With a set timeline, we already know exactly when 'new' Mechs and weapons would be released, and precisely what they will be. Likewise, the dev team doesn't need to spend much time planning out the background story, since it already exists in general. The fact that MWO began life as a single player game just means that some of the requisite resources should already exist, as people have already mentioned. From a different perspective, it would be a shame to waste the effort that had already gone into that side of things. There's nothing wrong with finishing the PVP game as it is currently planned, but I wouldn't mind seeing effort put into PVE instead of extra Mech skins or something post-release.

[RonPimp]

Definitely agree we need a PVE aspect to the game.

[Exilyth]

Giant enemy crabs could be implemented as mobile structures, like the Rattler or Wyrm.
Then again, more mechs, vehicles and BA/Infantry would be better than a single target you can just concentrate fire on.
The right composition of opfor elements can provide much more challenge.

Also, Savannah Master Rush is to be feared.

[Beeman]

Having some meaningful PvE in MWO would be great. I'd love, love, LOVE to have a coop campaign even remotely similar(in depth, at least) to MW4: Mercs. I've never honestly played the previous MechWarrior titles until recently, played me some MW4 via the mektek...whatever release. That campaign makes my face happy on too many levels. Deep mech customization, the ability to rank up your lancemates by taking them into matches...buying/salvaging/selling mechs and armaments like a champ and picking what missions I do in what order I want(kinda).

That would be FANTASTIC for MWO, especially if my lance(or two lances!) could be filled with friends as well as AI(or just friends, make it hard for two of us @.,@).

I also like this idea that's bouncin' around about the clan drops. That would be a freaking fantastic way to introduce the clan invasion. But it'd have to be another game-mode you can be randomly queued into, I think. Or just happen at the start of random matches. If someone died early-on, though...like a crazy commando zip-zoppin' around, it'd be too disheartening to know that you're missing out on a clan invasion.

Maybe have a custom intro to go with it. LIke...maybe have an early MWO intro that's just some dude piloting a random mech and describing the strife between the great houses(i don't know much about it, honestly >_>) and the importance/rarity of mechs...then when the clan invasion starts, have a new intro cinematic featuring them dropping into a random battlefield and yelling at the inner-sphere pilots for being honorless wusses or something. Maybe have an option on the main menu to view the cinematics, like World of Warcraft has; you can view each expansion's cinematic from this little button in the main login screen

Either way, some type of coop game-mode or campaign would be phenomenal...and would really help suck people into the universe. Maybe tie it into that community warfare thing they mentioned in that one devlog...not sure how, but they could probably figure out a way.

[Morashtak]

Maethos, on 18 August 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

Base code is there already as it has been said they did pve first then went to pvp.

Not quite correct. Please re-read Dev Blog 0 - Reboot.

It is all about what they intended to do and what they shopped around was a video. No mention of a PvE game actually being developed. There would be no reason to begin coding if the monetary backing was not going to emerge.

My assertion still stands - As of right now it's all about getting the game to a General Release. If the game is successful they have stated that nothing else has been taken off the table, just prioritized according to the level of success of MWO. But PvE should be relagated to after the Clans show up, late next year. Then coding of a Co-Op and/or PvE could then begin. 18-24 months from now we might see beta for PvE.

Edited by Morashtak, 19 August 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Morashtak, on 19 August 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Not quite correct. Please re-read Dev Blog 0 - Reboot.

It is all about what they intended to do and what they shopped around was a video. No mention of a PvE game actually being developed. There would be no reason to begin coding if the monetary backing was not going to emerge.

My assertion still stands - As of right now it's all about getting the game to a General Release. If the game is successful they have stated that nothing else has been taken off the table, just prioritized according to the level of success of MWO. But PvE should be relagated to after the Clans show up, late next year. Then coding of a Co-Op and/or PvE could then begin. 18-24 months from now we might see beta for PvE.

Actually, Russ has already said that PVE "is probably one of the very first things we will explore once our core game is complete and we go Open Beta".

So, there is a non-zero chance that PVE could show up in about 7 months (e.g. when the Clans are due to invade the IS proper), if not sooner...

[RogueMae13]

I reckon an offline mode would also be a good feature to implement into the game. Same as PvE, just offline, so you can practice even without an internet connection, or if there is ever a time when you are faced with lag so bad you just want to go 'AAAAAAAAGH'. Team Fortress 2 has a pretty decent offline practice mode. If a similar thing can be done for MWO, then it would certainly be pleasing.

[Morashtak]

Strum Wealh, on 19 August 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Actually, Russ has already said that PVE "is probably one of the very first things we will explore once our core game is complete and we go Open Beta".

So, there is a non-zero chance that PVE could show up in about 7 months (e.g. when the Clans are due to invade the IS proper), if not sooner...

And a certain amount of gamers will take that as a stone cold promise and hurl all kinds of hate at PGI for not having a fully functional PvE element released by this time next year.

"...explore.." - That's the key word. A variable probability based on the success of the PvP element. Too many will/are taking it as a sure thing, unfortunately.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

In my opinion (which is fact and truth, of course!) PvE is a waste of resources, and cannot match the thrill and adrenaline of PvP in the slightest. Why face dumb AI instead of a truly capable opponent?

Also, the idea of randomly having Clan 'Mechs drop into random matches does not sound fun to me. It does not match anything that would have been in canon and seems more like a cheap gimmick of GoW's Horde mode. The Clans should not be relegated to some XP grind. They are meant to be scary, and the only way to do that properly is to put human pilots at the controls.

AND, "random?" really? Since when do the Clans not offer Batchall?

Edited by Alaric Wolf Kerensky, 19 August 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Morashtak, on 19 August 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

And a certain amount of gamers will take that as a stone cold promise and hurl all kinds of hate at PGI for not having a fully functional PvE element released by this time next year.

Indeed.
Though, the same could be said about virtually any topic (PVE, Mad Cats, Solaris VII, etc) - they can't please everyone, right?

Morashtak, on 19 August 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

"...explore.." - That's the key word. A variable probability based on the success of the PvP element. Too many will/are taking it as a sure thing, unfortunately.

That PGI will be looking into the viability of a PVE element for MWO at some point after the Open Beta hits seems to be a given.

What, if anything, could come of that exploration - nothing at all, or automated defensive turrets for bases, or Combat Vehicles and Battle Armor infantry as summons/"pets" for Commanders, or possibly even AI-driven Clanners - would remain to be seen.

And all of that would be dependent on the success of the PVP element, the "core game".
Then if the core game and the Open Beta aren't successful (which isn't terribly likely!), all of that (along with quite a few other things, I would imagine) would become a moot point, yes?

[Man Of Iron]

Angelkiller777, on 17 August 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Well in one of he dev interviews they said they tried out PVE first, so that would imply that they have AI scripts for the mechs sitting around somewhere.
Now I would love to see the clans introduced as PVE opponents first. Trying to defend IS territory from their assaults would be a lot of fun.
Or even to have them randomly hot drop into PVP games...

Clan drop ship streaks over head...
The opposing team suddenly reads as friendlies on your IFF...
<Mech power up detected>...
Timber Wolf splashes down 300M from you...

Both teams get XP based on how long they can survive.

That, good sir, would make the game truly unique in that mid way through a game the enemies would become allies in a the enemy of my enemy sort of way, Loving that idea to be honest

[Maethos]

Strum Wealh, on 19 August 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Actually, Russ has already said that PVE "is probably one of the very first things we will explore once our core game is complete and we go Open Beta".

So, there is a non-zero chance that PVE could show up in about 7 months (e.g. when the Clans are due to invade the IS proper), if not sooner...

I'm glad to hear it is on PGI's mind. I don't see how the game no matter how good the pvp is would last for 2 years and i'm saying that as a big battletech/mechwarrior fan. I'll be playing till it ends no matter what they do or don't, but I want them to succeed and the sooner they can work in a pve element or any of the other great ideas being floated the better MWO chances will be.

It is true the line between what we want to see and expect by open beta can become blurred, but don't expect any pve that soon. Just want it to be in the works. MW/BattleTech community is great but still we need more people to come to the fold in order to support a mmo for any real lentgh of time( STO being a great example of big fan base dose not mean instant game succees). My other worry is with it being a f2p mmo it will soon need to become pay to win or fade away due to lack of support.

A pve element part of a sub base or pay to play addiction (optional) could help fund needed new content to keep game on top and not fade away like other titles have.

Enough of the worries tho, MWO will be success and look forward too seeing all of you in game.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Bagheera, on 18 August 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

You basically bring up the crux of the issue. The MMO/PvE market and the competitive PvP market want different things out of a game. I'm fine with complete separation between the two in a Mechwarrior franchise, but that essentially becomes a completely new game or it suffers from lack of proper development attention and causes the core, original MW:O to suffer the same.

Little reason as to why we can't have both.

[SkyKensa]

Sternus, on 18 August 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

All of this could be rectified by simply dividing the Battlemech stable into two parts : Tournament 'mechs and Campaign 'mechs. The level basis for campaigning would have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on PvP and the rewards earned in that arena would have ABSOLUTELY no bearing on the PvE setting. In this way those who dislike PvE (and the aforementioned MMORPG cookie cutter format) would NEVER have to cross that line. In reciprocal form those who dislike PvP (read: World of Tanks on feet) would Never have to cross THAT line. Those who have a taste for both would be able to "walk" from one 'mechbay to the next to participate in which ever environment they felt like dabbling in, without ever disrupting the gameflow of the other. The game is called Mechwarrior online after all, not Battletech online.
I absolutely believe that you should not earn, say, a Daishi in PvE and be able to field it in PvP. If you havent EARNED it for PvP you cant field it until you do. Likewise xp, variants unlocked, etc, earned in PvP should NOT transfer to PvE. It may seem a complex task to implement this idea, and i am sure that it isnt a simple one. Yet it would definately be worth it in terms of long range REplayability, and it just makes better fiscal sense to at least attempt to cater to all. I do not want another Star Trek online flop, so if it takes a year or two so be it.
As long as Our Blessed Developers are patient, thorough, and dedicated i think that we will see this incarnation of Mechwarrior more flexible and adaptable, with a stronger paying subscriber base, than most if not all other MMO's and MMORPG's on the market.

I find this posting to be pointing in the right direction. +1

[Deceptor]

Ya give the kiddies some turkeys to shoot at. Why not.