558 replies to this topic

[Lycan]

I think the talk of "fair" in war game has nothing to do with the "war" part of it but has a lot to do with the "game" part of it.

Also, as been said, disable/destroying the leg(s) of a mech shouldn't result in the total destruction of that mech. It's been a long time since I've played the TT game but I don't think having both legs blown of resulted in the destruction of your mech. (If it did, my apologies and disregard the last part of this statement).

That seems to be the crux of the topic. No one really is against the targeting of a mech's leg. They just don't think that the destruction of said leg (or legs) should completely destroy your mech and remove you from the battle.

[AcesHigh]

IMHO, You get your leg blown off, you lose heatsinks and mobility.

You lose those two things in a firefight and I bet you're dead either way. You are not Ter Roshak, .

[ArchLurker Chad]

A lot of the discussion seems to touch on the act of legging and the moral behind it. Reminds me of "back-dooring" in DOTA. Never understood why they whined about that either.

If it works, people are going to do it. In war there are no rules! Makes perfect sense.

A lot of discussion about a subject like this indicates that it was balanced poorly in the games. I'd like to see that there's something to gain by destroying the legs of a mech, but it needs to be a decision to the player, not a no-brainier instant win if you go for the legs.

[Polymorphyne]

If your leg gets destroyed, what does your mech stand on? Its basic logic that your mech should fall over, and that a damaged leg should have reduced mobility. An urban environment does allow for alot of low cover for you to shelter your legs behind- also, legs aren't very easy to hit compared to the body.

[Opus]

Prosperity Park, on 23 February 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

The real scary part is when there's extra pieces after building it...

thanks Coffee in the nose laugh....

but true

[Opus]

Longsword, on 25 February 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

If your leg gets destroyed, what does your mech stand on? Its basic logic that your mech should fall over, and that a damaged leg should have reduced mobility. An urban environment does allow for alot of low cover for you to shelter your legs behind- also, legs aren't very easy to hit compared to the body.

I am sure there a real experts on this subject: I AM NOT ONE!

but IMHO - you have the inner structure of which your Myomer is wrapped around. is intact to some extent. The armor casing protecting it and the power connections have been damaged - Legging

Edited by Opus, 25 February 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[FEK315]

Longsword, on 25 February 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

If your leg gets destroyed, what does your mech stand on?

Well that depends on if your have built your mech as a He or a She...
see the "Mech Gender" Thread for more details... http://mwomercs.com/...69-mech-gender/

Edited by FEK315, 25 February 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Leetskeet]

Unless they're making it difficult to aim for specific points with that whole weapon convergence thing, which I assume is just the arms, it WILL be an easy way to take out a mech with very little thought or skill.

It's been easy to hit legs in essentially every Mechwarrior game, including MWLL, so the idea that they're harder to hit just isn't true. It's certainly difficult to tap a light mech in the same leg over and over, but it really isn't some impossible feat that's some super rare occurrence. In fact, taking out the legs of a light mech tends to be fairly easy since they're made of paper thin aluminum foil.

The best bet for dealing with leg damage is when the leg is "destroyed" it forces you to limp at something like 1/4 speed, and an additional.... 50% total leg health in damage takes the leg out completely. That way, you can cripple a mech, but you aren't taking it completely out of the fight and causing frustration without really putting effort into making it lay down.

[Opus]

Leetskeet, on 25 February 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Unless they're making it difficult to aim for specific points with that whole weapon convergence thing, which I assume is just the arms, it WILL be an easy way to take out a mech with very little thought or skill.

It's been easy to hit legs in essentially every Mechwarrior game, including MWLL, so the idea that they're harder to hit just isn't true. It's certainly difficult to tap a light mech in the same leg over and over, but it really isn't some impossible feat that's some super rare occurrence. In fact, taking out the legs of a light mech tends to be fairly easy since they're made of paper thin aluminum foil.

The best bet for dealing with leg damage is when the leg is "destroyed" it forces you to limp at something like 1/4 speed, and an additional.... 50% total leg health in damage takes the leg out completely. That way, you can cripple a mech, but you aren't taking it completely out of the fight and causing frustration without really putting effort into making it lay down.

+1

aka Double tab an LBX10 at the knee - your bound to tear something off a leg

[Polymorphyne]

Quote

but IMHO - you have the inner structure of which your Myomer is wrapped around. is intact to some extent. The armor casing protecting it and the power connections have been damaged - Legging

So your saying that no matter how much firepower I pour into a leg, ill never damage the inner structure of it? Even though I can blow of entire limbs? So basically the inner structure is made of some kind of law of physics defying indestructable material?

[Stripes]

The point is realy simple - if "legging" will be done in style similar to MW 2-3 - it will be abused. Plain and simple - hardcore Clan fans can do a honoroble fight, but most part of casual players not them

All, in the grand end, depends on dev position on that matter. I, myself, prefer legging as option to disable fast and nimble opponent (ever faced, lets say, Osiris running circles around your SuperNova?) - but not destroying them completly. Done that in original MW2 and all incarnations of MW4. MW3... well, i was little then palying her - so all goes for victory

[Jaroth Corbett]

Stripes, on 25 February 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

The point is realy simple - if "legging" will be done in style similar to MW 2-3 - it will be abused. Plain and simple - hardcore Clan fans can do a honoroble fight, but most part of casual players not them

All, in the grand end, depends on dev position on that matter. I, myself, prefer legging as option to disable fast and nimble opponent (ever faced, lets say, Osiris running circles around your SuperNova?) - but not destroying them completly. Done that in original MW2 and all incarnations of MW4. MW3... well, i was little then palying her - so all goes for victory

Clan warriors fighting can leg, it is not dishonorable.

[Opus]

Longsword, on 25 February 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

So your saying that no matter how much firepower I pour into a leg, ill never damage the inner structure of it? Even though I can blow of entire limbs? So basically the inner structure is made of some kind of law of physics defying indestructable material?

Dunno.,.,., again, just an Opinion.

I am sure once you have a leg dangling from a hit, your going to go after the other leg, and drop the core, and upper mech to the ground, not waste more ammo and time trying to destroy something, you really don't want to, IF your going to salvage it, Right?

[Lycan]

ArchLurker Chad, on 25 February 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

A lot of the discussion seems to touch on the act of legging and the moral behind it. Reminds me of "back-dooring" in DOTA. Never understood why they whined about that either.

Not really. To me they seem to be touching on the fact that legging a mech, in some of the games, results in the complete destruction of the mech. Which is stupid.

If legging a mech just stopped the mech from moving, yet left you a viable (sort of) threat, no one would really have an issue with it. But since in Mechwarrior 4, it resulted in the loss of the mech and potential the loss of the match as well, people, being people, took the easiest route and just took out the legs for the quick win.

Don't have a clue as to what DOTA is but if "back dooring" is like punching through the rear armor (which is thinner) of a mech, then no one here has a problem with that or would whine about it. (May scream at the computer screen when it happens but that's about it. )

Quote

If it works, people are going to do it. In war there are no rules! Makes perfect sense.

Which would make perfect sense, if you were actually IN a war. But your'e not. Your in a game and so is everyone else. And the goal of that game is to have fun.

Quote

A lot of discussion about a subject like this indicates that it was balanced poorly in the games. I'd like to see that there's something to gain by destroying the legs of a mech, but it needs to be a decision to the player, not a no-brainier instant win if you go for the legs.

And that right there is what everyone seems to be in agreement on. There should be a tactical advantage to legging but not the instant win that it was. If they can do that, everyone (mostly) should be happy.

@Longsword

In the TT version of the game, if your leg was destroyed you could still stand, with the appropriate Piloting Skill roll. However, if after you made that roll, ANYTHING happened that requried you to make another roll, you automatically failed that roll and fell down.

If both legs were destroyed, you automatically fell.

However, once on the ground, you could, if you had any arms left, use one of them to prop yourself up and continue blasting away at the enemy.

Oh, and you could also, if missing only one leg, use a building to prop yourself up with . . .

[Opus]

Lycan, on 25 February 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

In the TT version of the game, if your leg was destroyed you could still stand, with the appropriate Piloting Skill roll. However, if after you made that roll, ANYTHING happened that requried you to make another roll, you automatically failed that roll and fell down.

If both legs were destroyed, you automatically fell.

However, once on the ground, you could, if you had any arms left, use one of them to prop yourself up and continue blasting away at the enemy.

Oh, and you could also, if missing only one leg, use a building to prop yourself up with . . .

oh, and one thing I think was applicable is; If the leg isn't damaged all the way, but near failing... you rolled for damage as you continued to walk on it till it is useless,, or something of that nature..

its been 18 years since I rolled dice, so help me out here i don't remember everything

Edited by Opus, 25 February 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[CoffiNail]

Why is this thread still going? Do I not recall the DEVs stating legging is in, you do not like it go cry to mommy? Legs are there, if they were not meant to be hit, well it would have a little force field around them. Legs are viable targets, if you choose not to leg then fine, great for you. I however will, when circumstances are right, leg with little remorse. It is a target, it is part of the game, people just whine because it removes them from the fight with a ample amount of armor left. Yeah, but I often find unless I am in a light vs a heavy or assault it is almost always easier and more effiecent to core a mech than to leg it. The legs move, the torso, not so much.

It happens

[Lycan]

Opus, on 25 February 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

oh, and one thing I think was applicable is; If the leg isn't damaged all the way, but near failing... you rolled for damage as you continued to walk on it till it is useless,, or something of that nature..

its been 18 years since I rolled dice, so help me out here i don't remember everything

Naw, if they were that badly damage, it just cut down on your movement and I *think* made making piloting skill rolls a bit more trouble some but I don't think you had a chance to take more damage as you walked . . .

Could be wrong though, like you it's been nearly 18 years since I've tossed the Battletech dice around . . . .

[Wyzak]

in MW2 mercs you could be legged and fall over, but regain uprightness with jumpjets. Realistically the 'mechs should be able to sit up and fire when legged or zombie crawl with their protruding AC barrels. But if you remove limb dismemberment from the game a-la MW4, I think that would be a major detraction from immersion. Unfortunately in MW2M losing a leg meant you had to fire from a sideways sprawl because the mech was not smart enough to do a sit-up.

[Tarl Cabot]

CoffiNail, on 25 February 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Why is this thread still going? Do I not recall the DEVs stating legging is in, you do not like it go cry to mommy? Legs are there, if they were not meant to be hit, well it would have a little force field around them. Legs are viable targets, if you choose not to leg then fine, great for you. I however will, when circumstances are right, leg with little remorse. It is a target, it is part of the game, people just whine because it removes them from the fight with a ample amount of armor left. Yeah, but I often find unless I am in a light vs a heavy or assault it is almost always easier and more effiecent to core a mech than to leg it. The legs move, the torso, not so much.

It happens

The thread is going to allow food for thought, while notating the difference between "war", gameplay and community.

In the TT version if die roll indicated a leg or arm hit and that arm/leg is gone, the damage is moved to that side torso.

In MPBT EGA, it was PC verses droids. As indicated, slow them down and salvage. Only hit Solaris a few times but do not remember the rules there. In EGA you did have the ability to prop yourself up on an arm, and was able to fire from up/down/side/rear views.

With MPBT SVGA (Solaris), it went through several updates.

Tics - 3 tic setup but the tic weapons never fired simultanously but consecutively, one after another. Any jumping/jarring could result in shots being spread about.

At the beginning, there was no arm prop, no side/up/down firing arcs. This meant that being legged resulted in you effectively being dead unless your opponents stood directly over you. Thus being a newbie generally meant lots of frustration and the attitude that this game sucks. Not good for moral. The House leaders/govt came together and banned legging, as at that time there was no way to continue play after being legged except to eject and end the match.

Even after an update that allowed firing from different arc ranges, it was sometime before the community as a whole came changed their viewpoints about legging, and it was reintroduced during a Solaris Succession War, though during specific matches the weeks previously tactics were reviewed and changed. Imagine a lance of Kuritan Dragons 1-C vs a lance of Davion mercs (Draaguns) still using Catapults. Tactics used was hit the lance at an angle, running at an angle while firing AC2 from right arm to hit the legs enough to slow a couple of them down while stripping the LRMs off of the others then turning around, backing up and twisting torsos to spread out the incoming LRM damage.

In the above games, the mechs mounted at most 2 of the same long range weapons, be it AC2, PPC, or LRMs. Medium/short range was 4 or more, medium lasers and such. The one good thing they lacked was the customization that would be seen in the Mech games to come. MPBT 3025 did not have the customization the Mechwarrior games had but it did have the pin-point accuracy of tic weaponary.

Then there were MW2-4 games with their massive customizations and pin-point accuracy tic weapons. As previously mentioned, there were flaws, percieved or not, with each system and every community either worked around any apparent shortcomings or played through it, depending on what they considered fair gameplay, regardless of how "realistic" it was meant to be.

I am a leg man myself, when it is appropriate. But the eyes can do me in too

[lsp]

I will be legging if it's in the game so get ready to frown on me and disaprove.