558 replies to this topic

[Scott Wolfpack Rider]

I am perfectly ok with legging if its implemented properly. Taking both legs of a mech should not be an itstant death. If I can roll my torso up with one arm and use the weapons in my torso/head/other arm to still engage the enemy, I should be able to. If I'm impatient and can't stand realism, and want to run around like a chicken with my head cut off I should be able to eject and "respawn" if that is how the system works. (with full chassis value going to enemy team)

That being said, hit boxes need to be tied to the visual representation of the leg and not just the general area, which is where alot of the issue with legging came from imo. Hitting a mechs legs should be viable but purposly targeting the legs of a moving mech should be harder than aiming at the huge box sittng on the rapidly moving legs.

[Punisher 1]

Here's how I look at it. Anything and everything should follow the most logical path that blends realism and fiction. Hence a realistic damage model that imposes penalties onto a fictional machine.

Once armor is removed and internals damaged to various levels the mech starts to lose speed and eventually when internals are compromised ( shot off or BTFU ) then you become stationary or jump jet around Or you can crawl.
As for shooting mechs in the legs or not that’s up to your personal preference.

1. Disabling or destroying a mech should yield the same experience points. Hence you removed the enemy threat from the map, job done.

2. Targeting a leg requires more skill than randomly shooting the main body and last but not least not forgotten is the ability to salvage said enemy mech, Do you want a pile of slag or a mech that needs one leg replaced before you can use it yourself or sell it?



There are several reasons to control your fire and bring down the enemy as efficiently and quickly as possible. Its all how you want to play it but I'll be more than happy when I have a drop ship full of my enemies mechs and salvage to run extended campaigns without having to pay out truck loads of C-bills on some backwater world for an extra Medium LASER or a ton of ammo. [/color]

Edited by Punisher_1, 03 February 2012 - 05:01 AM.

[Stormeris]

I dont see the problem with legging, "oh its unfair" so what! lifes unfair, and shooting in the legs would be very useful! because if you want to take down a tank, put a grenade in its' threads, though they should make legs slightly harder to hit but thats about it,

[Kael Tropheus]

Take out an opponent's legs, you get better salvage from the rest of his mech. Seems pretty logical to me. Small mechs are not supposed to mix it up with big mechs in a head on fight. If the small mechs legs get shot out from under it, then its the small mechs fault for being in the crosshairs and letting itself get hit. Legging is an important part of the game and universe story.

[Kasiagora]

I'm wondering how hard it would be for the Devs to put in the TT mechanic where if you get legged, you fall down, but if you torso-twist you'll support yourself on the opposite arm. Basically you're looking at dirt, if you twist right you'll support yourself on your left arm and can fire weapons from your right arm and torso. The opposite happens if you torso-twist left. It would put a serious damper in what you can do but it would keep you from being out for getting legged. Also could add in the MW2:Mercs mechanic where using your jumpjets raises you into the air and you can fire everything, but maybe make it so you take a little fall damage when you topple back over and hit the ground again.

[Mechteric]

Based on the latest Dev Blog there's something called "Weapon Convergence" that can be improved, in this picture: (http://img.mwomercs....ev_blog4_01.jpg)

Perhaps that means weapons won't be instantaneously accurate, which sounds to me like the best way to ensure legging can remain a valid tactic without any further restrictions simply because it will be harder to hit the legs when you have to wait for your weapons to converge presumably by slowing down and not turning (which of course makes you a easier target to hit as well)

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 February 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Okie135]

Here we go again... LoL

Personally, I don't have a problem with legging. I do have a problem with some of the game mechanics in the more recent iterations. (Sorry Paul, this challenge will be in your court. ) I think they way they did it in Mech 2 Mercs was the best. In my opinion it was the closest to the way a Battletech and a Sim should handle it. Both limbs must be gone to kill a mech, but limbs CAN be shot off.

I think the way Mech 4 did it was a cheap cop out. It fit more of an fps mindset which was on the rise at the time. I may be hoping for too much, but my hope is that this will be a Battletech sim, and not a straight up action game. Don't get me wrong, I know the devs will do what is necessary to make the game fun. I think they can do that and still treat damage modeling like that of a simulation.

As for legging, in Mech 3 the honor code was needed. In mech 4 the prevention of a 1 hit KO was another cop out.

Before that, legging was a valid tactic.

In MechWarrior 4 I made a few kills against a Daishi while piloting a Flea. The Daishi could not turn to engage and I was able to stay in the rear arc the whole time. When you are an assault mech pilot you need to aim for the legs to slow or stop a light mech before it can out maneuver you. This tactic appears in the fiction a lot and it worked in older MechWarrior games.
______________________________________________________________

So long story short, legging is a legitimate tactic. The community shouldn't condemn it until we know the game mechanics. Once we do, then tactics and honor codes can be adapted.

Edited: Because it didn't sound right, read to myself.

Edited by Clark, 03 February 2012 - 01:09 PM.

[Canned_Dman]

I used to be a mechwarrior like you, then I took an arrow IV to the knee actuator....

[KingCobra]

This topic has been around since MW2 first of all my opinion is that the legs and arms have never had enough protection in ether there hit box's or there amount of armor.Also the hit ratio's in all the PC games have been way to high per chassis location and hit ratios per armor.Why i say this is you should only have a 20%chance or less to hit a leg and 10% on a arm when in motion and a slightly higher ratio when stopped or immobilized.but in almost all the PC MechWarrior games the hit ratio's have been 50% or higher on legs and arms and 50%-100% on all the other chassis locations.So if the alpha strike is once again used in MWO then your going to see allot of legs and arms flying off real fast.

[Joanna Conners]

You know what it boils down to? If you don't like legging, don't play MechWarrior.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Demona, on 03 February 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

You know what it boils down to? If you don't like legging, don't play MechWarrior.

Yes!

I don't see why people would dislike legging; 'Mech battles are a competition between gunners to quickly destroy their opponent's legs before their own are destroyed.
How more exciting could it get?

[Tannhauser Gate]

LakeDaemon, on 06 January 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

First, the issue even exists because we have insta-hit 100% coverging fire. You can head shot, leg, lop off weapons, and core a single panel of armor far easier than it would in the lore.. especially at long range with PPC, ERLL, LG, Arrows, etc.. If you are defending your right to leg with impunity at 800M then you are a spoiled fps shooter kid who hasn't embrace the realistic complexities of targeting in a simulation... especially a BT sim.

Conversely, if you take off all your leg armor then I have no sympathy for you if you are legged like a whining noob. People would be fools to not take advantage of that... especially honor-observing players whose sense of honor you are abusing.

Finally, like it or not Honor *is* a part of Battletech. Doesnt mean you have to get all bushido about it but MWO will be the most canon of any BT video game. People should be allowed to observe whatever degree of honor they want. If youre here only to frag and not get into any of the BT flavor then I feel sorry for you. Its not just a game system, its a universe as large or larger than Star Wars or Star Trek.

To the devs: The BT-based rules and the actual game mechanics should tow the line. You cant make it easy to leg, easy to boat and expect players to limit themselves and honor BT lore. People *will* use them and then everyone will have to in order to compete. If the implied rules are meant to simulate BT combat then please have the mechanics limit players to BT configs, tactics, and capabilities (as much as possible).

Above is my last post on the subject.

Of course it makes sense to leg like a fiend because legs are weak and earn easy kills plus we all have 100% converging fire with our boats. And now, MWO will have have real salvage so unless the devs make it harder to kill legs and/ or fixes the 100% converging fire then MWO will be nothing but a huge LEG FEST.

Im not against legging but I am against legging being so effiecient that is makes all other tactics obsolete. Imo, legging shouldnt lead to an easy kill and we shouldnt have boats. Plus It should be harder to hit a leg than to hit the body so it would make sense to aim for the body so more of your weapons hit within their circle of fire (as opposed to 100% convering zero error aiming in which case youd target legs and any other weak spots)

Edited by LakeDaemon, 03 February 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[SmackZ]

Dont like being legged? Well then dont be stupid enough to think you can just stand there and try to fight your mech and it not happen. Fight on the move and pilot more efficiently. You just have to fry the lil guy before he leggs ya!...... "SCOUTS OUT"

[Alaskan Viking]

Chuckie, on 02 February 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

As a Merc.. I don't care if its "Fair", Last i checked it was WAR..

Think the South thought it was "fair" when the north started to use the Gatling gun..?

I'm sure they did, it jammed constantly, weighed about as much as a regular cannon but had half the range and couldn't use grape shot, or pierce reinfored barricades.

I think the South thought Sherman's targeting of civilians was the real "unfair" thing.

Quote

Think the Germans cared if it was "fair" to use Mustard gas in WW1..?

Probably not, but the Germans were the most Humane of all the waring parties, cared the most about the lives of their soldiers, and believed in the classical rules of war, which developed in Europe to limit damage to civilian lives and infrastructure. Hell the Germans wanted to ban dum-dum rounds and and shotguns because they lowered the survival rate of wounded soldiers.

Quote

Think the Japanese thought it "fair" to drop the A bomb on them..?

The Japanese had no problem targeting civilians, so no, I don't really think they did.

Quote

What about the bobby traps in Nam..?

I.E.D.s in Iraq/Afghanistan..?

Cowardly, maybe, smart, probably, unfair? I've never heard anyone call I.E.D's "unfair".

Quote

Nothings FAIR about war.. its WAR.. Don't want to get legged.. hide your legs, up armor them, pilot faster, etc.. but sure as heck don't think in WAR no one isn't going to use every single advantage they have to win. Even though this is a game, its simulating war...

Key word is GAME. With giant robots no less...

[Syvenn]

I prefer to go for the two D's: Disable and Dismember: I work clockwise/counterclockwise on the mech. Arm, head, arm, then the legs. or if its something like a timberwolf or strider: arm, missile pod, missile pod... Basically, go for the easy bits, then go for the kill. light mechs though I usually go straight for leg disabling because of their speed. I almost never use light mechs so trying to circle fight one is impossible, so if I can damage their legs to where they're worthless, the better chances of them blowing up.

[verybad]

It's part of the enemy. My goal is to kill the enemy. If htey don't armor their legs, I'll take advantage of that every time.

Legging was probably easiest in MW3. In MW4 so long as you armored your legs reasonably, a torso kill was generally easier.

In terms of gameplay, I want them to be a viable target, the whole "legging is dishonorable" thing always struck me as a result of poor game balancing.

Depending on beta testing, legs should either be tougher or distribute damage to eachother. I don't think mechs without legs are viable units, and people probably wouldn't (by and large) enjoy playing from a legless mech. (I'm sure somebody will post to prove me wrong now)

It's a GAME first and formost, so legging has to be balanced but viable.

[Orzorn]

Problem seems solved, now that we have delayed convergence. Converged all your weapons to accurately hit a leg will be basically impossible. You'll probably never get more than than half your weapons to hit the leg, whereas aiming for an easier target like the torso would yield easier convergence and better accuracy.

[Solis Obscuri]

I like legging very much, if she's got the figure to be wearing them. Glad to see they've made a comeback!

Seriously, though, my recollection on targeting legs in MW games was that the huge splash damage from PPCs and missiles in MW2 made legs an easy option, particularly against light 'mechs that were almost unhittable otherwise; it was also profitable because of the ridiculous "targetting sphere" hitboxes for the arms on most mechs, which forced you to basically blow off both arms and gut the entire torso to kill many designs. In MW3 I recall having to focus a lot on legs to get salvage playing the campaign; I didn't consider legs terribly easy to hit, but since disabling just one would give you a kill, it was a convenient option if you had point-accurate weapons like LLasers or if you were in close.

I echo the comment on weapon convergence - I don't think legs should be indestructible, but they shouldn't be so easy to hit with an Alpha strike or circle strafing with pulse lasers that it becomes a predominant tactic. I take kind of the same view as headshots - they should be in the game, and a valid target to go for, but they shouldn't be a sure bet to hit for easy kills. Taking off a leg should imobilize a mech, but not completely disable it; removing both should disable it, but not destroy it.

[Razed]

They should make it like MPBT: Solaris where you could have all your parts blown off and still roll around the battlefield as a head. I swear I killed a guy once with the small laser in my head because that's all that was left of my 'Mech.

[Insidious Johnson]

If I'm in a light mech being chased by a Wolfhound, a medium, and a heavy after discovering an ambush and drawing them perpindicular to our position, yeah, I'll be aiming for legs, because THEY WILL.