558 replies to this topic

[B B Wolfe]

Fastred, on 22 June 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

"Rock salt does the trick "

Oh, ow. I'm going to assume this rock salt is made of metal and fired at high velocity and close range.

[BOLO COMBAT UNIT NIGHTSTALKER]

LEG THEM ALL,LET GOD SORT THEM OUT

[PodX140]

Kalenn, on 22 June 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

The motion sway is something that is interesting, but the current gameplay videos appear to be showing a reticule that maintains a constant focus point while your torso moves around you - this is equivalent to the pilot actively repositioning their head against the torso sway, or being in some kind of floating cradle that does so. The latter isn't totally crazy, given it's 1,000 years from now, but would be more realistic (and make one-shots much tougher) if motion sway was more punitively implemented. This also has the side effect of making matches longer... and making skill count for a lot more. Until you've learned how to keep your 'Mech pointed at the right spot, you're going to miss a lot (as you should!)...

IIRC, they are harnessed in a cradle, in all the battletech books I've read. So yeah, the mech moves, you don't. Crosshairs obviously should though.

[B B Wolfe]

God's in his heaven, all's right with the world?

[Rufus Jager]

PodX140, on 22 June 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

IIRC, they are harnessed in a cradle, in all the battletech books I've read. So yeah, the mech moves, you don't. Crosshairs obviously should though.

How should an recticule projected on a piece of glass sway with the movement of a mech, if they were iron sights maybe.

[Project_Mercy]

Rufus Jager, on 22 June 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

How should an recticule projected on a piece of glass sway with the movement of a mech, if they were iron sights maybe.

It doesn't. You do. You are in cradle. You sway. But since it's difficult to make your monitor sway correctly, it's easier to make the screen do it instead.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Fastred, on 22 June 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

"Rock salt does the trick "

Ive had that flung at me at ballistic speeds

[BFalcon]

I'm going to toss out two phrases here for those complaining to think about.

The EVE Online motto: "Adapt or die"

and the Battletech motto: "No guts, no galaxy!"

Just because you don't like the idea, this isn't MW3/4 - both legs will need to be hit for the kill and I've already shown how most mechs have as much armour in their legs as their torso, so legging isn't going to be that much of a problem.

If you want an intact mech, headshot it - like my Griffin did to a Battlemaster in an early game I played... saves damaging anything you know... expensive...

[PodX140]

Rufus Jager, on 22 June 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

How should an recticule projected on a piece of glass sway with the movement of a mech, if they were iron sights maybe.

That reticule shouldn't be where you WANT to shoot though, it should be where the actual weapons are pointing. So even if I want to shoot dead center, and I'm walking, the reticules should be shifting slightly to account for the movements of torso and arms.

[Kelthar]

Lorcan Lladd, on 02 February 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Well, as long as it is easy to achieve, and fun, too, people will resort to legging...
...Either in competitive or casual play.
So, my point is, legging should be made more difficult to achieve.

Now, I clearly remember legging not being such a grave issue in other online mecha games - namely, Starsiege - because, for one thing, the targeting systems, weapons and weapon lock times in those games made it quite a challenge to target any specific location - and though some very skilled gunners actually managed to pick away at weapon hardpoints, such feats required actual skill and did not constitute in a 'cheap kill' or underhanded tactic.
Unless you were standing really close to your target, but, well.

There, I believe that the weapons in MW:O should be made less accurate in general, and the targeting systems of 'Mechs, less responsive; either that, or the apparent or visual speed of 'Mech movement should be increased, thus preventing the overuse of legging.
This all purely from the standpoint of gameplay, because I don't know how accurate or fast those systems should be according to canon.

Oh, and then turn it around and give those Clan targeting computers an upgrade - want to bet the clanners will be legging all the time?

Of course, I'm also assuming that legging is a Terrible Thing and that we are discussing the means to stop players from legging - maybe I'm missing the point of the discussion entirely, so forgive me if that is the case.

Edit, on leg damage, I believe the legs typically receive less armor tonnage than other 'Mech structures, even though the actuators inside them can be destroyed easily by more powerful weapons, not to mention potential damage to myomers, so I would rather have the legs remain vulnerable, and significantly impaired by damage that is dealt to them, when armor is damaged or depleted...
...As per MechWarrior 3, which I played, or 2, which I didn't.

Actually the legs in BattleTech, not the MW computer games, were generally one of the most heavily armored parts of a mech.

The main reason that legging became so popular in the computer games was that it was easy, and general took the mech out of the fight. In TT, the mech could actually stand again, although it risked falling and taking additional damage. It could also use one arm to prop itself up and fire weapons in the other arm and in the torsos. Coupled by the limitation of a +/-60 degree torso twist this meant that legging and running was dangerous to the attacking mech as you ended up turning a back or flank on the prone mech which could then fire at will.



Off the subject a bit, in TT there was also a small arc in the back of a mech from which you could hit the rear armor. Hits from the sides or side rear actually hit the main or frontal armor. That small arc is the only reason that most mechs had such weak back armor.

Bottom line, the closer to the TT rules you stay, the more sense the mech designs make. The farther you stray the less sense certain things make. Which is why some of the "other" non-BT based games sometimes were more cohesive. They weren't taking mech design literally and then changing all the mechanics that affects them.

For those of you that are not aware, in TT general rules, which a couple exceptions, you couldn't target specific parts of an enemy mech. You either hit, or you didn't, and hit location was determined randomly. For instance, on a successful hit you had a 1 in 36 chance of hitting the head. This made certain weapons like SRMs and LRMs, and the LBX autocannons made more sense as you rolled separately for each missile, or group of missiles, which gave you more chances of hitting the head, or a stripped location.

I realize that we are not specifically dealing with TT rules, although I understand that Piranha is trying to stay as close to them as makes sense. But it may help people understand why mechs were designed the way they were.

Edited by Kelthar, 22 June 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[Kelthar]

BFalcon, on 22 June 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

I'm going to toss out two phrases here for those complaining to think about.

The EVE Online motto: "Adapt or die"

and the Battletech motto: "No guts, no galaxy!"

Just because you don't like the idea, this isn't MW3/4 - both legs will need to be hit for the kill and I've already shown how most mechs have as much armour in their legs as their torso, so legging isn't going to be that much of a problem.

If you want an intact mech, headshot it - like my Griffin did to a Battlemaster in an early game I played... saves damaging anything you know... expensive...

Well, except for the head containing a lot of , you know, expensive equipment. But it is the quickest, if you can hit it.

PodX140, on 22 June 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

IIRC, they are harnessed in a cradle, in all the battletech books I've read. So yeah, the mech moves, you don't. Crosshairs obviously should though.

All of the literature refers to a seat or couch.

[Dorsal Spine]

Leonardo Monteiro, on 03 February 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Me? Ill do whatever it takes (and whatever is allowed) to get a fast, clean, efficient kill - if its by legging, then legging it is.... unless, there is no obvious advantage in it:


Here enters the armor balancing, were legs, although "leggable", are quite armored - if you don't like the prospect of being legged, armor your legs... sure, you'lll be cored faster, but that's life

What he said. As long as the results are balanced what is the problem? Legs should be hard to hit. If you are good enough to do it more power to you. When it comes to combat, it you are not cheating, you are not trying hard enough!

[PodX140]

Kelthar, on 22 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

All of the literature refers to a seat or couch.

I haven't really been following (read: haven't touched in 8 years +) battletech, but I could swear there was a crazy harness involved... Huh, guess my battletech really IS off

[Thorgar Wulfson]

if the devs put in losing the leg is a kill, then expect lots of leg shots. if they make it so its not a kill but only hampers the target by making them very slow or fall down to fire limited weapons from prone youll still have leg shooters but not as many. Either way its a viable tactic, like shooting an armored horse out from under a rider. kinda slows the cavalry down when they have no horses.

[Lord Exalted]

i feel that mw4 did a decent job on legging. coring was still the most effective method of killing legging was crippling but not insta kill

[CommanderOSIS]

when I played mw4 on the zone legging was against the rules in clan matches. everyone halved their leg armor and put it on other areas.

[belakor502]

I have not played any mechwarrior game yet, but this is how i think it should be.

1.If your legs internal gets critically damaged movement speed gets reduced by 30%( so 2 legs = -60% movement speed)

2.If your legs internal is getting destroyed completely or the leg is shot off the body - 50% movement speed. (if the other leg is damaged it is -50% + -30%, reducing the movement speed to 20%

3.If both your legs internals get destroyed the mech is not able to move anymore.The mech stands still but is still able to fight. However he will be a sitting duck and die anyway soon.
If both legs are shot off, the mechs should fall to the ground, and the direction his guns are pointing after he falls, he should be able to fire.

Hope you can understand what i mean. I have one question though. If one leg is shot of, how can he still hold balance or even move? I wrote this thoughts because i read they can do that.

Edited by belakor502, 22 June 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[PodX140]

belakor502, on 22 June 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

I have not played any mechwarrior game yet, but this is how i think it should be.

1.If your legs internal gets critically damaged movement speed gets reduced by 30&( so 2 legs = -60% movement speed)
2.If your legs internal is getting destroyed completely or the leg is shot off the body - 50% movement speed. (if the other leg is damaged it is -50% + -30%, reducing the movement speed to 20%
3.If both your legs internals get destroyed the mech is not able to move anymore.The mech stands still but is still able to fight. However he will be a sitting duck and die anyway soon.
If both legs are shot off, the mechs should fall to the ground, and the direction his guns are pointing after he falls, he should be able to fire.

Hope you can understand what i mean. I have one question though. If one leg is shot of, how can he still hold balance or even move? I wrote this thoughts because i read they can do that.

In the tabletop, you're VERY likely to fall, but you can use your arm to prop yourself up and fire with the other, allowing for some (or a killing blow, if you've got a gauss) damage to still be done. Torso was also possible to fire in that position.

[Buddah]

I am here to kill you, if shooting you in the leg will slow you down so I can get behind you where you have a harder time hitting me and I can shoot at you at will and do more damage I will.

Speed is life! Stop moving, get the leg blown off.

Blowing a leg off should not destroy the 'Mech, specially since i want the salvage!

[GenWarhammer]

All's fair in love and War.... the way i look at it Legging is acceptable.