71 replies to this topic

[Trogusaur]

This has been something I have been wondering about since MW2. I'm not sure how weapon impact was touched upon in the first game, but I noticed that firing multiples of the same weapon at a target did nothing to further disrupt the enemy's aim, but still contributed to knocking over a mech.

For instance, consider a mech carrying a trio of UAC5's, firing all of them simultaneously. Then compare the impact of that to another mech using a single UAC10. In all three generations, the UAC10 caused far greater knockback and gyro instability when impacted, despite the fact the UAC5s are all grouped, and total damage is greater. Personally, I think that even if the "big brother weapons" still have more impact than a group of smaller ones, the bug biters should have a greater effect when firing together.

Furthermore, how do lasers cause impact? I can understand a PPC rocking a target because of condensed particles, but what about a pure energy weapon? Should it still have the same effects (other games aside) as ballistics and missles, even though the idea behind a laser, according to sarna.net, is to melt armor away?

Did the old games accurately simulate weapon impacts, or should MW:O touch upon this a bit more? If so, how?

Poll EDIT: Missle questions have been edited and revised. Now reads: Should missle impacts cause increasing increments of rocking, further destabilizing a mech? Or should each warhead cause the same amount of knock?

Edited by Lord Trogus, 23 March 2012 - 12:54 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

This is one of those things they need to work out a balance on, then make up lore to support it. IE to balance lasers, they decide no knockback so they simply melt. Or they need to cause knockback, so the melting armor/components instantly converting to molten status releases gases that cause a small explosive effect and thus causes knockback.

[NotNewHere]

A laser is a highly concentrated beam of thermal energy (usually) and causes no knockback IRL. However if you have a realy shiny little pinwheel on your mech a laser would turn that.
3 AC5's would cause the same total knockback as a AC15 but it would be less concentrated. This means groups of smaller weapons would actually have more knockback than their larger cousins, as the more concentrated impact of a single large caliber shell would be more likely to penatrate than cause knockback.
If someone stabs you the knife will go into your skin (large caliber weapon)
if someone punches you the force is more spread out and pushes you away rather than piercing your skin (multiple small caliber weapons.

[Kael Tropheus]

4 LRM5s have the same number of missiles as an LRM20. Why wouldnt it cause the same impact jolt?

[MilitantMonk]

Kael Tropheus, on 09 February 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

4 LRM5s have the same number of missiles as an LRM20. Why wouldnt it cause the same impact jolt?

Yeah this seems like it'd be dipping into min/maxing exploit territory.

[osito]

As for the lasers the reason for the knockback is not kinetic impact it is the loss of armor, hence shifting center of balance.

Edited by osito, 09 February 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Mechteric]

osito, on 09 February 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

As for the lasers the reason for the knockback is not kinetic impact it is the loss of armor, hence shifting center of balance.

the melted armor doesn't fly away in the opposite direction necessarily, it probably dribbles down or something

[Vertous]

im glad to see nobody picked "all missiles have the power of a single round" i would be like "..... *** these guys are crazy" thats like saying im being hit by a homing autocannon shell!!!

[Kael Tropheus]

In the novels, it quite often mentions the pilots having to fight to keep control as armor is vaporized and melted off from energy weapon hits and the accompanying loss of multi-tons of weight off a particular location shifting the balance of the mech.

[MeDammit]

In MW4 they took into account stacked weapons of the same type causing increased knockback. Try an Annihilator in stock form, then strip it down and put clan LB20x's on it. It works best on Atlas's. Close to less than 100m and it knocks them on their @ss every time. Dual lbx or the stock lb10x's have no such effect.

[Wraith 1]

In some of the previous games, 4 LRM5 would fire more missiles per second than 1 LRM20, so even if they had the same amount of knockback the LRM5 group would be more jarring.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

You might like to look at a similar discussion here http://mwomercs.com/...e-of-knockdown/ Quite a wide variety of opinion. A number of people insisted that they couldn't get knocked down because of their piloting skill I seem to remember.

[VYCanis]

technically, if the laser is powerful enough, knockfactor could still be there, the knock would just not be coming from kinetic force being imparted, it would come from the laser superheating the material on the target explosively.

Though that all greatly depends on whether armor is depicted as flashing away into vapor or melting off in molten gobs.

[renegade mitchell]

Yes

No

Multiples get combined knock back value.

[Solis Obscuri]

Heavy projectile weapons like the AC/20 and Gauss RIfle should do the most impact damage (well, besides maybe a direct Arrom IV hit...), from there it should scale down to the AC/10 and PPC (which should have some secondary effects like heat and sensor disruption), then the AC/5. Missiles should provide some rock depending on how many hit, and a full LRM/20, LRM/15, or SRM/6 rack should stagger you if it all hits. Machine guns, lasers, flamers, and the AC/2 should put out little or no impact damage.

As for combining weapons, yes the effects should combine, but the convergence factor should also come into play - the three AC/5s might produce an additive effect, but they are unlikely to concentrate like the AC/10, and in most cases the effect should be more of a pronounced overall shuddering than a staggering jolt from the AC/10's single point of impact.

[Azalie]

I am of the minority who believes the lasers should have a knock back. I site the battletech books as my reference. There are many examples but the most recent in my memory was towards the end of Grave Covenant.

Quote

Renny's shots ripped the Hankyu to pieces. While two of the pulse lasers impotently blew armor from the 'Mech's left arm and leg, the other three created a firestorm that consumed the 'Mech's right arm, leg, and all the armor over its right breast. The fury of the assault spun the small 'Mech around, smashed it into a small hummock, and left it lying in a small rain-eroded gully.

The Hankyu variant which was destroyed consisted of six medium lasers. There were no ballistics contained within the mech.

[Outlaw Wolf]

1 vs 1 -- the larger weapon should deal the larger amount of impact, but a group of smaller weapons all fired at the same time would create enough energy transference into the target that it could equal a larger weapons impact.

For missiles -- a missile is a missile, if 20 missiles hit from an LRM20 and 20 missiles hit from 4x LRM5's, it is the same amount of missile damage / impact.

Lasers, cause a small amount of energy transference, but most if it would not be the same as alot of weight slamming into a target causing knockback or recoil. It does its damage by melting away at armor, joints and actuators (as read in the books) The impact a laser should do, is technically it could force your mech to move slower or not at all depending on the damage done by them and to where (example: the leg actuators or joints)

[Trogusaur]

Kael Tropheus, on 09 February 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

4 LRM5s have the same number of missiles as an LRM20. Why wouldnt it cause the same impact jolt?

This depends more on the game mechanics. Should LRMS be implemented like they were in MW2 (stream of missles), this will make a huge difference, considering how 4 missles hit at once. If it's like a big burst (MW3) then you're right, no difference.

[Trogusaur]

osito, on 09 February 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

As for the lasers the reason for the knockback is not kinetic impact it is the loss of armor, hence shifting center of balance.

That is a great idea, except that now you have to do the same for all weapons, something that the other games didn't necessarily do.

To Azalie: I agree, sticking to canon in terms of the lore is definitely important, a great argument to have knockback. But how far do we go with the canon if it doesn't seem feasibly possible for lasers to do that? I recall a Dark Ages book where a mech fires a trio of medium lasers at a 60t mech, and it does nothing more than "bubble paint". Remember that these books were written by many different authors, meaning there is some room for interpretation. Great quote though!

Edited by Lord Trogus, 10 February 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Insidious Johnson]

Kael Tropheus, on 09 February 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

4 LRM5s have the same number of missiles as an LRM20. Why wouldnt it cause the same impact jolt?

Can't really even have this discussion until we know how AMS/LAMS will work in this game. It may be more advantageous vs anti missile systems to go with 4xlrm5 so they can be chained. In that scenario, the AMS go to work hard on the first salvo of missles and intermitantly thereafter on recharge. Either way, will need MORE ammo to overwhelm AMS if the trend carries over from previous games. The biggest glaring issue isn't the answers to this question but the question itself. It should have been: What will determine jolt characteristics: What/When/Where/How hits on target or what was fired?