408 replies to this topic

[Vaneshi SnowCrash]

buttmonkey, on 02 February 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

can somebody fill me in as to why MW/BT cannot just pay royalties or buy the designs or something like that?
of course adding them when they know they will be sued is not an option but why can they not sort something out with whoever it is who wants to sue them for using these mechs?

In some respects FASA had a license to use them from the original creators (remember Macross not Robotech is the original). Harmony Gold (creators of Robotech which makes use of the Macross franchise and holders of the NA distribution rights to it) are basically just being dicks and have been for well over 20 years at this point. It's a pretty sordid tale all told.

So to answer you question about why Smith & Tinker, PGI, IGP don't just license the designs: Because even if they did Harmony Gold would still sue them.

Edited by Vaneshi SnowCrash, 02 February 2013 - 04:01 AM.

[Ricama]

DirePhoenix, on 26 January 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

A better question is what makes the Hammerhands ok, and the Smith & Tinker Warhammer not ok? As far as I can tell, HG is reacting to the name and not the imagery, because the images are not the same and HG is just spamming letters to everyone every time a new "official" picture of the contested 'mech appears regardless of what it actually looks like, and everyone panics the hell out with "OH GOD TAKE DOWN THE PICTURES THE LAWYERS ARE WRITING LETTERS AGAIN!!!"

Someone in this franchise needs to put their foot down. If HG is reacting because of the name attached to the imagery, they have no grounds and need to be put in their place. The only thing in contest was the images, not the names, not anything else that makes these mechs they are. We can make new images. We shouldn't have to run and hide and bow down to a paper threat every time a letter goes out and just keep pretending that the core 'mechs of the franchise just don't exist.

FASA tried to put their foot down, they ended up loosing it.

How about Microsoft instead? Oh wait, they declined to get involved in the Unseen Reseen snafu. I doubt it was out of fear, it was probably because the amount of money it will take to finally shut HG up was more than they would make back from the fight. I'm pretty sure the only way you will see a mech named Warhammer or Marauder is if HG goes belly up and someone sane gets the rights to Macross. Rebuilding the artwork doesn't matter, they have an agreement with FASA that FASA will never again publish any publication with a mech named the same as the unseen. It is complete and utter BS but it is still enough to drag PGI into court and destroy the company.

And finally, gamble on your own dime! It's really easy to sit back and say "you should risk everything so I can have my shiny mechs." It cost you nothing to try to get someone to risk everything. You really want this fight fought, start a gaming company, get the rights, put the unseen in it and fight HG yourself. If you still need to be convinced just how badly a giant company can batter a little company even when they are completely, 100% in the wrong, go visit Nissan.com.

[Znail]

But quite frankly so is there no legal risk involved here, asuming reseen or redesigns are used. Copyright law involves exact copies so doesn't apply to scratch made models! What could be applied is Trademark law as that is more fuzzy and includes stuff with similar looks. But the thing with Trademark law is that you have to enforce your rights to keep them and as there are numerous reseen, mods etc made that HG have neglected to challange so have they lost any rights to challange MWO models based on the reseen. A real corporate lawer can probobly very this as I don't know the exact time frames involved, but the reseen have been around for quite a while now so should be safely used as precedent.

[Vaneshi SnowCrash]

Ricama, on 02 February 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

FASA tried to put their foot down, they ended up loosing it.

It is also worth remembering that the actual rights holders to Macross told Harmony Gold to behave themselves and sided with FASA. HG's response was to pretty much tell the Macross people to EABOD.

But yes I agree the only way it'll happen is if Harmony Gold finally go bankrupt and the distribution rights for NA are sold to another company that ISN'T a total **** (or are returned to the Macross people).

But wishful thinking won't make that happen and people are squeeing over even the remote possibility of a Robotech movie so it's highly unlikely HG are going anywhere.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Ricama, on 02 February 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

FASA tried to put their foot down, they ended up loosing it.

How about Microsoft instead? Oh wait, they declined to get involved in the Unseen Reseen snafu. I doubt it was out of fear, it was probably because the amount of money it will take to finally shut HG up was more than they would make back from the fight. I'm pretty sure the only way you will see a mech named Warhammer or Marauder is if HG goes belly up and someone sane gets the rights to Macross. Rebuilding the artwork doesn't matter, they have an agreement with FASA that FASA will never again publish any publication with a mech named the same as the unseen. It is complete and utter BS but it is still enough to drag PGI into court and destroy the company.

And finally, gamble on your own dime! It's really easy to sit back and say "you should risk everything so I can have my shiny mechs." It cost you nothing to try to get someone to risk everything. You really want this fight fought, start a gaming company, get the rights, put the unseen in it and fight HG yourself. If you still need to be convinced just how badly a giant company can batter a little company even when they are completely, 100% in the wrong, go visit Nissan.com.

But what they are named isn't what the problem is, it's the images.

HG's Macross lists the mechs in question as Destroids:

• ADR-03-Mk III Destroid Cheyenne
  
• Destroid Cheyenne Mk II
  
• ADR-04 Destroid Defender Mk X
  
• Destroid Monster Mk I
  
• HWR-00 Destroid Monster Mk II
  
• HWR-00 Monster Mk II Target Destroid
  
• SDR-04 Destroid Phalanx Mk XII
  
• MBR-07 Destroid Spartan Mk II
  
• MBR-04 Destroid Tomahawk Mk VI
  
• Destroid Work

http://macross2.net/...list-index.html


The Maurauder is called the Glaug

HG has always fought for the copyrighted images. It wasn't until FASA started using them and named them the Warhammer/ Marauder. Those are general words in usage in the English language, and cannot be copyrighted. Tim Langdell's tirade of the trademarked word EDGE has been proof of this.

Common words and phrases can be trademarked if the person or company seeking the trademark can demonstrate that the phrase has acquired a distinctive secondary meaning apart from its original meaning.

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 02 February 2013 - 05:08 AM.

[buttmonkey]

well lets hope the robotech movie they make is ***** and bankrupts them
maybe then we will see our unseen mechs whoo!

[Zaptruder]

The current word on the situation is pretty much this:

Reseen mechs essentially have to not identifiably resemble their unseen counterparts.

In name or appearance.

Not that redesigns can't pass muster in court - but simply even the hint of litigation is enough to make the idea unviable.

So essentially, if we wanted those mechs, we'd have to be willing to accept things that don't look like we remembered them... and things that aren't named like we remembered them.

Warhammer = Hammer.
Phoenix Hawk = Hawk
Shadow Hawk = Shadow
Battle Master = Field Master
etc.

Yeah, that's really how ridiculous this whole situation is.

And if you do that, I doubt many fans will be happy... you might as well just ignore them and spend the time and effort using and making mechs of property that isn't under a cloud of bull.

[The Silent Protagonist]

I've just realised something. A fatal flaw in our plans. Were we to get the unseen/reseen, there would be two mechs alone in use on the field. The Warhammer and the Marauder. Don't you even think about disagreeing we all know that those are the ones we want. No one would ever want to use the other mechs again (until the clans come a-calling).

WHAT DO!?

[Matt Minus]

The unseen don't look very MechWarrior. I know the game started as a Robotech ripoff, but the style has evolved a lot since then.

[DirePhoenix]

Zaptruder, on 02 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

The current word on the situation is pretty much this:

Reseen mechs essentially have to not identifiably resemble their unseen counterparts.

In name or appearance.

Not that redesigns can't pass muster in court - but simply even the hint of litigation is enough to make the idea unviable.

Where the hell are you getting this?!? The issue has always been about the images only. HG has no claim on the names or the stats.

We can make new art. As to why no MW video game has moved forward with new art is mostly because of "the fans" (yes, us) that won't accept anything but the original art (which honestly, is probably due to most of the Project: Phoenix art just being bad). So from the (previous) game developer's PoV, what do you do? You either upset the "fans" by making these 'mechs that don't look like what they want them to, or just omit them because appeasing the "fans" will get you sued. Which do you think is easier and more cost effective?

Emotions about/Attachments to the original artwork were a LOT stronger about this 10-15 years ago. Not only that, but the only alternatives to the original art we were given were the Project: Phoenix designs. A lot more people were on the "use the original art or nothing at all" side (especially if the alternative is Project: Phoenix). Now is the time to move on. Using the 1985 art is not an option. All of the art used in MWO has to be original designs anyway (and none of the 'mechs we have currently are even using their original TRO art). We have artists that can somehow manage to make even the Project: Phoenix Marauder into something somewhat more palatable. These 'Mechs are a huge part of Battletech history, not only in the fact that these were the 'mechs that people were introduced to in the boardgame, but in the lore, the backstory of the game itself.

If we're going to be playing a game where we're "in the universe" of Battletech, we NEED to get these 'mechs back into the game instead of just leaving this gaping hole where they're supposed to be. I am fully confident in PGI's art team to come up with new original art suitable for these 'mechs. We can and SHOULD do this.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Zaptruder, on 02 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

The current word on the situation is pretty much this:

Reseen mechs essentially have to not identifiably resemble their unseen counterparts.

In name or appearance.

Not that redesigns can't pass muster in court - but simply even the hint of litigation is enough to make the idea unviable.

So essentially, if we wanted those mechs, we'd have to be willing to accept things that don't look like we remembered them... and things that aren't named like we remembered them.

Warhammer = Hammer.
Phoenix Hawk = Hawk
Shadow Hawk = Shadow
Battle Master = Field Master
etc.

Yeah, that's really how ridiculous this whole situation is.

And if you do that, I doubt many fans will be happy... you might as well just ignore them and spend the time and effort using and making mechs of property that isn't under a cloud of bull.

HG has always fought for the copyrighted images. It wasn't until FASA started using them and named them the Warhammer/ Marauder. Those are general words in usage in the English language, and cannot be copyrighted. Tim Langdell's tirade of the trademarked word EDGE has been proof of this.

Common words and phrases can be trademarked if the person or company seeking the trademark can demonstrate that the phrase has acquired a distinctive secondary meaning apart from its original meaning.

Which means a majority poll of 100 people (without ever mentioning Robotech) would have to refer to Robotech and identify those mechs as a Warhammer or Marauder a majority of the time. Don't think that's going to happen.

[Ricama]

Zaptruder, on 02 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

The current word on the situation is pretty much this:

Reseen mechs essentially have to not identifiably resemble their unseen counterparts.

In name or appearance.

Not that redesigns can't pass muster in court - but simply even the hint of litigation is enough to make the idea unviable.

So essentially, if we wanted those mechs, we'd have to be willing to accept things that don't look like we remembered them... and things that aren't named like we remembered them.

Warhammer = Hammer.
Phoenix Hawk = Hawk
Shadow Hawk = Shadow
Battle Master = Field Master
etc.

Yeah, that's really how ridiculous this whole situation is.

And if you do that, I doubt many fans will be happy... you might as well just ignore them and spend the time and effort using and making mechs of property that isn't under a cloud of bull.

... sooo you want something that looks completely different from any of the unseen and named something different ... we have those already, they're called other mechs.

[Sandslice]

Matt Minus, on 02 February 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

The unseen don't look very MechWarrior. I know the game started as a Robotech ripoff, but the style has evolved a lot since then.

In the sense you're saying it, no. It probably started with the Revell Robotech toy lines, and a bit of research into Robotech Changers led to the other Macross mecha; it's the most reasonable explanation why the relatively obscure Dougram is so heavily represented among the unseen. (Fun fact: Dougram is controlled by Sunrise, who have a slightly better known franchise called Gundam...)

Tatsunoko's contract with HG came after that... and HG then had to have a contract with Revell because of the toys... which eventually resulted in Macek's franken-toon becoming "Robotech."

And I'd argue that even if the Macross unseen "don't look like MechWarrior," the Dougram unseen do, so very much. Grab yer copy of Total Warfare and look at the cover... right there in the middle, with the number 23 on it.

[Helbourne]

I like what PGI's artists have done. I ask they to keep up the good work.

Its funny how this thread went 10 pages before Topps was even talked about. My understanding is Microsoft has the video game rights and Topps owns the rights to everything else. (since they gobbled up Wizkids - and dropped the Wizkids brand name)

Catalyst Game Labs licensed to do the Battletech rpg now.

Anyways, go PGI, your artists are doing a fine job.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Zaptruder, on 02 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

The current word on the situation is pretty much this:

Reseen mechs essentially have to not identifiably resemble their unseen counterparts.

In name or appearance.

Not that redesigns can't pass muster in court - but simply even the hint of litigation is enough to make the idea unviable.

So essentially, if we wanted those mechs, we'd have to be willing to accept things that don't look like we remembered them... and things that aren't named like we remembered them.

Warhammer = Hammer.
Phoenix Hawk = Hawk
Shadow Hawk = Shadow
Battle Master = Field Master
etc.

Yeah, that's really how ridiculous this whole situation is.

And if you do that, I doubt many fans will be happy... you might as well just ignore them and spend the time and effort using and making mechs of property that isn't under a cloud of bull.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with you here but I do see your point. The Original BT Names of the Unseen have ZERO legal significance. However since the names will flag peoples attention to draw similarities between any art they do for them and their original artwork, they could be liabilities. For instance looking at the black jack artwork... that thing could be minorly tweaked to make a re-imagined rifleman. If you call it a rifleman, even as it looks now, there is a lawyer somewhere who needs to be paid to make sure its 'different enough' not to even provoke legal action, regardless of whether it would stand up in court or not. All that cost quickly becomes not worth it when you can simply call it a blackjack or other non-controversial mech. Any unseen re-makes are going to need to be massive cash cows to justify the extra expense, and right now I doubt they can afford to invest either time or money into it.

The ones that they possibly could draw enough cash from to be worth it are the most iconic one and will be the most difficult to re-imagine to the satisfaction of the players that want to see them. (I'm thinking phoenix hawk, marauder, archer & warhammer)

Edited by Redmond Spiderhammer, 02 February 2013 - 09:09 PM.

[DirePhoenix]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 02 February 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

I'm not sure I 100% agree with you here but I do see your point. The Original BT Names of the Unseen have ZERO legal significance. However since the names will flag peoples attention to draw similarities between any art they do for them and their original artwork, they could be liabilities. For instance looking at the black jack artwork... that thing could be minorly tweaked to make a re-imagined rifleman. If you call it a rifleman, even as it looks now, there is a lawyer somewhere who needs to be paid to make sure its 'different enough' not to even provoke legal action, regardless of whether it would stand up in court or not. All that cost quickly becomes not worth it when you can simply call it a blackjack or other non-controversial mech. Any unseen re-makes are going to need to be massive cash cows to justify the extra expense, and right now I doubt they can afford to invest either time or money into it.

The ones that they possibly could draw enough cash from to be worth it are the most iconic one and will be the most difficult to re-imagine to the satisfaction of the players that want to see them. (I'm thinking phoenix hawk, marauder, archer & warhammer)

How do you see the resemblance to the Rifleman in the Blackjack when we have the JagerMech? That thing was already near identical to the Rifleman in stats and the TRO art, and now it looks even more like a Rifleman.

[Caleb Lee]

I voted prefer the Reseen, mainly because I know most of the Unseen from the novels and am not tied to the visuals. I would love to pilot a Marauder again for one but don't want PGI to incur any legal risk.

[RapierE01]

i would prefer the Reseen Warhammer like in the Video of MW5. It looks nice. In my opinion the new Marauder look like a crossover from a Shadowcat and a Cataphract.

http://mwomercs.com/...deo/3CWr3ZUQJeo (in 0:21 you have a good vision on te Warhammer)

[LordDante]

acealpha1027, on 28 August 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

i want the reseen o.o those look beast!

i really think about to report u to the police !

nothing really nothing beats that drawing of an marodeur ! its pure ART
it should hang in the freaking louvre or in the museum of modern art in NYC

its the soul reason i fell in love with battletech
the first minature i bought was the marodeur

so even thinking about reesen marodeurs is pure blasphemie !

may the ordo malleus beat the crap out of u !

HERETIC !

[Odanan]

Zaptruder, on 02 February 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

The current word on the situation is pretty much this:

Reseen mechs essentially have to not identifiably resemble their unseen counterparts.

In name or appearance.

Not that redesigns can't pass muster in court - but simply even the hint of litigation is enough to make the idea unviable.

So essentially, if we wanted those mechs, we'd have to be willing to accept things that don't look like we remembered them... and things that aren't named like we remembered them.

Warhammer = Hammer.
Phoenix Hawk = Hawk
Shadow Hawk = Shadow
Battle Master = Field Master
etc.

Yeah, that's really how ridiculous this whole situation is.

And if you do that, I doubt many fans will be happy... you might as well just ignore them and spend the time and effort using and making mechs of property that isn't under a cloud of bull.

If PGI can't even use their names, it's better not to use them at all.

Besides, we have the replacements (in role, loadout or sometimes even in looks):

Jagermech = Rifleman; (the MWO's Jagermech looks more like the Unseen Rifleman than the Reseen one)
Locust = Flea (or Cicada);
Longbow = Catapult (identical loadout);
Marauder, Warhammer = Cataphract, Catapult K2;
Battlemaster = Zeus (OK, not in the game yet, but very possibly the next Assault mech)
Phoenix Hawk = Black Jack.