408 replies to this topic

[Onii Guyver]

Here are some reseen figures for you, and yes they are totally not to scale with the two phoenix hawks at the front and rifleman, marauder II and wasp at the back. Oh and a Battlemaster below

Edited by Onii Guyver, 31 August 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[Freaky Foe]

To me depends on the look meen some of the reseens are prety cool, but I admit the original unseen muraders awsome =P

[Dankh]

Give FD free reign to redesign the unseen 'mechs based on weapon loadout and descriptions found in the books. I want a Marauder and a Warhammer

[h00n]

From a gameplay standpoint, anyone who does not continue to beat this horse into a bloody pulp is either an Atlas pilot or a light mech scout.

Seriously, IS mechs are utter trash from a loadout and potential loadout standpoint. They're slow, under armored, under gunned, and overall just ******* USELESS.

Without the Marauder and Warhammer the entire game WILL boil down to missile boat Cats, Jenner swarms and Atlas slogging until April 3050.

Edited by h00n, 31 August 2012 - 03:33 PM.

[tyrone dunkirk]

Those aren't reseen, those are concepts from a failed BT cartoon. At least that's what they look like. Someone please tell me those weren't part of an official canon re-draw project for the original unseen that was handed to an artists who had never done BT work. Right?

Any way, this thread's poll is a joke, as we won't see either the reseen or the unseen. All art has to pass through Alex, thus none of the designs will look the same. ( AKA the reason the concept art that has been released to us is different from that of the TROs in case the OP hadn't effing noticed )

[Turook]

There are no legal problems with using the Reseen designs as people keep mentioning, thats why they are Reseen.
I will be sad if the canon Mechs will be left out of the game as I have been playing it since 1986.
I'm not going to carry on about how I like this Reseen but not that one. Just to have them in the game would be enough.
As has been mentioned al art has to be passed through Alex and while I am so happy that the game Hunchback looks only vaugely like the tabletop version (c'mon guys it was designed nearly 30 years ago and the pewter manufacturing technology was a little basic then) I do feel that the current line of Mechs being produced look fantastic (mostly) and shouldn't need much if any redesigning.

The only thing that I am curious about, if someone can tell me. why was the Stone rhino redesigned from


To this


The new version looks so bad ....................

[Strum Wealh]

Turook, on 31 August 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

The only thing that I am curious about, if someone can tell me. why was the Stone rhino redesigned from


To this


The new version looks so bad ....................

The Stone Rhino (IS designation: "Behemoth") is, itself, among the Unseen; it is apparently based on artwork from Victor Musical Industries (now Victor Entertainment), a Japanese company that has produced and distributed anime-related products since the early 1970s.

Also, if one looks at the TRO description and specifications, the BT version has always had twin Gauss Rifles (one in each side-torso), though some descriptions argue that both Gauss Rifles fire through the single dorsal assembly seen in the Unseen artwork.

As with the Marauder and its "gun-over-CT vs gun-in-RT" issue, the Stone Rhino's Reseen artwork, with its double Gauss Rifle barrels, is a much better reflection of the actual BT/MW specifications than the Unseen artwork.
Also, it should be noted that the figurine pictured is of the second variant, the Stone Rhino 2, rather than the primary variant. Here is the associated artwork, from TRO 3055U:

Edited by Strum Wealh, 31 August 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Turook]

Ahhhh, thanks for that. Now you mention it I remember Victor Musical Industries because at the time I thought how strange for a music company to be doing Mech designs.
Put it down to old age crankiness but I still feel the new one looks like .... I'm so happy that I still have 5 of the originals, no matter how hard they are to transport due to arms sticking out the way they do.

[a rabid chihuahua]

Well the way I look at it ,since they have been updating the looks for the game ,they 're all reseens.

[empath]

I can't vote in this poll since the option of my choice isn't present:

"I prefer whatever artistic redesign 'Flying Debris' decides to make to the 'unseen' loadouts to make them uniquely suitable for MW:O"


FWIW, as a BattleDroids player, I will say most of the Original Fourteen are really sub-par designs with muddled loadouts (Shadow Hawk aka "Jack of all Ranges, Master of None" anyone?)

If I were involved with IGP/PGI, I would ONLY consider delving into such risky waters to include these designs in this F2P MMO would be with expressed written permission from Harmony Gold that the artwork we would use is not in infringement of their licensing of Studio Nue's artwork. Ironically, said permission could only be obtained by SUBMITTING FD's reworked art to HarmGold, and opening PGI/IGP up to a potential cease & desist from HG.

Also, the amount of misinformation regarding this whole legal mess makes me sad.

Okay:

1) Studio Nue creates artwork for some giant robots in preparation for use in some still-undefined animated show,
2) FASA, needing artwork of giant robots (and this being the '80s the ONLY source is Japan), licenses the artwork for "creation and advertising of model kits in the United States" through a now-defunct intermediary, Twentieth Century Imports,
3) Studio Nue creates Super Dimension Fortress Macross, using the artwork in #1 - in exchange for financial assistance during its creation, S.Nue signs over ALL international licensing of SDF Macross to Tatsunoko Production
{this is where it gets interesting}
4) a. 1984-Harmony Gold licenses SDF Macross (as well as two other unrelated Studio Nue anime shows) from Tatsunoko for USA distribution,
4) b. 1984-FASA seeks to expand their license through TCI...and nothing seems to get done by the latter before they end up closing shop,
5) HG frankensteins the three shows together to create Robotech,
6) HG dominates - ****, CREATES - the fledgling US anime market with its flagship property,
7) FASA grows its BattleTech property beyond its licensed origins, and the Clan Invasion introduces a major change to the in-game milieu with in-house art and designs,
8) FASA begins to consider diversifying beyond the boardgame (and associated rulebooks and storyline novels), and enters talks with Playmates Toys about creating spin-off products based on BattleTech's Clan 'Mechs,
9) Playmates thinks things over, then turns FASA down,
10) 1993 - Playmates works with Universal Cartoon Studios to 'get an American share' of the Japanese anime market, and releases EXO Squad...including some artwork and toy designs that BLATANTLY infringe on FASA's Clan 'Mechs,
11) 1993 - FASA files suit against Playmates,
12) Playmates already has business dealings with Harmony Gold and latter notices similarities between old BT designs and designs from SDF MacrossRobotech
13) 1995 - Harmony Gold files suit against FASA regarding the dubious status of FASA's licensing Studio Nue's artwork,
14) Playmates moves for the suit lodged against them by FASA be reassigned and consolidated with HG's suit against FASA,
15) legal shennangians (motions to change venue for suit, appeals to higher courts, etc.) go on for many, many billable hours, before getting denied,
16) 1996 - Judge Castillo in original suit of FASA v. Playmates finds in FASA's favour, and orders Playmates to cease production and sale of the offending products...and attaches NO financial compensation to/from either party,
14) both Playmates and FASA are left financially weakened after this lawsuit,
16) FASA, gun-shy after getting shafted and placed in a crippling fiscal state from winning a three-year court battle, and looking down the barrels of ANOTHER lawsuit which does NOT look like a 'cut and dried' win for them, panics and purges ALL out-of-house artwork (including non-Studio Nue artwork like Crusher Joe and Dougram),
17) FASA takes Harmony Gold into closed meetings to settle matters out-of-court,
18) No one involved says JACK about this settlement.

That's essentially everything up to about 2003, with Operation Phoenix and the Reseen.


Also of note: that fun stuff regarding 'illegitimate' licenses going from Studio Nue -> ??? -> TCI -> FASA?
Around 2002, Japanese courts ruled that FASA was in the right...and to clearly illustrate the quagmire that the legal system is, this ruling has NO bearing on any legal proceedings in the U.S. or anywhere else outside Japan.


tl;dr? Anything involving lawyers is going to leave you broke, even if you win. Right, Gwyd?

Edited by empath, 31 August 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

i voted i don´t care, for 2 reasons ( or more? i´ll see at the end of my post )
1st of all, there are so many mechs which can be added to MWO, that i won´t miss the unseen mechs too much... don´t get me wrong, i´d be the first one to shout "**** YEA!" if a warhammer would be announced... but it´s no big deal to me if not..

2nd: i´d like to see PGI make their own designs of the "legal issue candidates", and with view on the great designjobs so far, i´m sure i could pretty much live with their work.

and another thing is, that i am sure IF they would be able to add the original unseen/ reseen designs, they´d be premium anyway. so if they don´t appear, i´ll save a lot of money. a fact which takes some account into my vote

[Radical]

I too want those iconic mechs. Also the Phoenix Hawk.
I really dislike the Reseen versions, though. I hope if they must be used, the final versions look more like the Clan IIC variants, which I find generally look better even than the Unseen originals.

[tyrone dunkirk]

There's one thing I don't get about all these unseen-reseen threads/polls. Now, I'm a huge fan of the unseen. I grew up with MW2 and Mercs and I read the original 3025 and 3050 TROs almost as much as I read real novels ( I still have both TROs by the way ) but we WILL NOT be seeing the unseen or reseen in this game.

People keep asking for them, and saying we won't see the reseen or unseen. Have you not noticed all the artwork over in the 'media' part of the site?! It's all passed through Alex and is flushed out looking all amazing-like and stuff. This game will never, and has never featured artwork that is comparable to the TROs ( because it's better than the TROs ) We won't have reseen, we'll have Alex's Marauder, or Alex's Warhammer. ( and yes, we can call it the Maruader and the Warhammer. We have the rights to the names, people )

Some people know this, many, in fact. But the people who keep making threads about the unseen don't, and that ****** me right off!

Edited by tyrone dunkirk, 01 September 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

tyrone dunkirk, on 01 September 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

There's one thing I don't get about all these unseen-reseen threads/polls. Now, I'm a huge fan of the unseen. I grew up with MW2 and Mercs and I read the original 3025 and 3050 TROs almost as much as I read real novels ( I still have both TROs by the way ) but we WILL NOT be seeing the unseen or reseen in this game.

People keep asking for them, and saying we won't see the reseen or unseen. Have you not noticed all the artwork over in the 'media' part of the site?! It's all passed through Alex and is flushed out looking all amazing-like and stuff. This game will never, and has never featured artwork that is comparable to the TROs ( because it's better than the TROs ) We won't have reseen, we'll have Alex's Marauder, or Alex's Warhammer. ( and yes, we can call it the Maruader and the Warhammer. We have the rights to the names, people )

Some people know this, many, in fact. But the people who keep making threads about the unseen don't, and that ****** me right off!

That any 'Mechs that show up in MWO will be "Iglesias-ized" (either by Mr. Iglesias himself, or another from the MWO art team who would be duplicating his style) is both blatantly obvious and taken as a given.

What most of these polls ask is, "in adapting a BattleMech with Unseen and Reseen artwork for inclusion in MWO, which would/should be more heavily used as a basis or reference point?"

For example, take Shimmering Sword's take on the Marauder:


Contrast with the original, Unseen Marauder:


and the Glaug BattlePod from Super Dimension Fortress Macross (and Robotech):


and the Reseen Marauder:


Admittedly IANAL, but I would imagine that Harmony Gold could much more easily make a case for something like Shimmering Sword's version infringing on their rights to the image of the Glaug BattlePod (the basis for the Marauder's original, Unseen artwork) than to make a similar case against the Reseen Marauder artwork from Project Phoenix.

Also relevant to the above, I believe, would be one particular statement from Mr. Iglesias himself (from the first Dev Interview) that indicates that he is aware of how he's not working in a vacuum, and how his takes on certain BattleMechs might affect the MWO playerbase:

Quote

MWO: Are there any Mechs that you are scared of rebooting?

AI: Probably the Timberwolf, I know that if I mess that one up, I will never hear the end of it, and will probably have to try to outrun a few pitchfork wielding mobs.

Also, his response to the MWO Community's reaction to the (rather radical) redesign of the Centurion (which was received with strong mixed reactions):

flyingdebris, on 25 January 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

I understand the critiques but keep in mind guys

I don't just rub my hands together and think of how i can tear apart some of your childhoods

i first put some classical music on, pour myself some blood into a gold encrusted goblet, and laugh upon a throne of bones befor...i ...i mean i don't do that.

No, actually there are various reasons why the design looks the way it does.
Primary of which is that a lot of BT mech designs fall into the "humanoid with a cannon for an arm" category. And were i to stick too closely to the canon appearance, we could easily end up with a lot of mechs that would be hard to visually distinguish from one another at a distance. (The classic centurion head crest ...fin... sensor thingy, not exactly being something that would all that visible at longer ranges.) So to guard against the possibility, i had to make the mech as visually distinct as possible and push the proportions this way and that as well as add a few things here and there.

Given how popular and loved the Unseen are, how polarizing the Reseen are, and how some have reacted to major departures from the traditional designs of the past, I would not be surprised if Mr. Iglesias would be apprehensive with regard to rebooting any of the Unseen for many of the same reasons as the above statements indicated that he would be apprehensive about doing so with the Timber Wolf.

So, the conundrum is that there is a huge demand for the Unseen 'Mechs - as much or more so than for even the vaunted( ) Clan 'Mechs - that PGI could exploit, but the legal issues surrounding the imagery is often thought (wrongly) to extend to the 'Mechs themselves, and Mr. Iglesias and PGI are aware of the potential backlash from either using the Reseen art or not making MWO versions of the Marauder et al so close to the Unseen art as to likely draw a reaction from HG and/or other Unseen rights-holders.
It's a classic catch-22...

[Kuritaclan]

Unseen Marauder,
Unseen Warhammer,
Bookcover Stone Rhino,

Danke

Edited by Kuritaclan, 01 September 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[h00n]

People need to let go of the visual designs and allow them to be redesigned for the 21st century.

Seriously, the Glaug battlepod looks like it has downs. If you like the original Marauder for its looks instead of its firepower, you need to take off the rose tinted glasses.

[Odanan]

empath, on 31 August 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

I can't vote in this poll since the option of my choice isn't present:

"I prefer whatever artistic redesign 'Flying Debris' decides to make to the 'unseen' loadouts to make them uniquely suitable for MW:O"


FWIW, as a BattleDroids player, I will say most of the Original Fourteen are really sub-par designs with muddled loadouts (Shadow Hawk aka "Jack of all Ranges, Master of None" anyone?)

If I were involved with IGP/PGI, I would ONLY consider delving into such risky waters to include these designs in this F2P MMO would be with expressed written permission from Harmony Gold that the artwork we would use is not in infringement of their licensing of Studio Nue's artwork. Ironically, said permission could only be obtained by SUBMITTING FD's reworked art to HarmGold, and opening PGI/IGP up to a potential cease & desist from HG.

Also, the amount of misinformation regarding this whole legal mess makes me sad.

Okay:

1) Studio Nue creates artwork for some giant robots in preparation for use in some still-undefined animated show,
2) FASA, needing artwork of giant robots (and this being the '80s the ONLY source is Japan), licenses the artwork for "creation and advertising of model kits in the United States" through a now-defunct intermediary, Twentieth Century Imports,
3) Studio Nue creates Super Dimension Fortress Macross, using the artwork in #1 - in exchange for financial assistance during its creation, S.Nue signs over ALL international licensing of SDF Macross to Tatsunoko Production
{this is where it gets interesting}
4) a. 1984-Harmony Gold licenses SDF Macross (as well as two other unrelated Studio Nue anime shows) from Tatsunoko for USA distribution,
4) b. 1984-FASA seeks to expand their license through TCI...and nothing seems to get done by the latter before they end up closing shop,
5) HG frankensteins the three shows together to create Robotech,
6) HG dominates - ****, CREATES - the fledgling US anime market with its flagship property,
7) FASA grows its BattleTech property beyond its licensed origins, and the Clan Invasion introduces a major change to the in-game milieu with in-house art and designs,
8) FASA begins to consider diversifying beyond the boardgame (and associated rulebooks and storyline novels), and enters talks with Playmates Toys about creating spin-off products based on BattleTech's Clan 'Mechs,
9) Playmates thinks things over, then turns FASA down,
10) 1993 - Playmates works with Universal Cartoon Studios to 'get an American share' of the Japanese anime market, and releases EXO Squad...including some artwork and toy designs that BLATANTLY infringe on FASA's Clan 'Mechs,
11) 1993 - FASA files suit against Playmates,
12) Playmates already has business dealings with Harmony Gold and latter notices similarities between old BT designs and designs from SDF MacrossRobotech
13) 1995 - Harmony Gold files suit against FASA regarding the dubious status of FASA's licensing Studio Nue's artwork,
14) Playmates moves for the suit lodged against them by FASA be reassigned and consolidated with HG's suit against FASA,
15) legal shennangians (motions to change venue for suit, appeals to higher courts, etc.) go on for many, many billable hours, before getting denied,
16) 1996 - Judge Castillo in original suit of FASA v. Playmates finds in FASA's favour, and orders Playmates to cease production and sale of the offending products...and attaches NO financial compensation to/from either party,
14) both Playmates and FASA are left financially weakened after this lawsuit,
16) FASA, gun-shy after getting shafted and placed in a crippling fiscal state from winning a three-year court battle, and looking down the barrels of ANOTHER lawsuit which does NOT look like a 'cut and dried' win for them, panics and purges ALL out-of-house artwork (including non-Studio Nue artwork like Crusher Joe and Dougram),
17) FASA takes Harmony Gold into closed meetings to settle matters out-of-court,
18) No one involved says JACK about this settlement.

That's essentially everything up to about 2003, with Operation Phoenix and the Reseen.


Also of note: that fun stuff regarding 'illegitimate' licenses going from Studio Nue -> ??? -> TCI -> FASA?
Around 2002, Japanese courts ruled that FASA was in the right...and to clearly illustrate the quagmire that the legal system is, this ruling has NO bearing on any legal proceedings in the U.S. or anywhere else outside Japan.


tl;dr? Anything involving lawyers is going to leave you broke, even if you win. Right, Gwyd?

Now that's very important information. I had no idea. The fact FASA used the unseen BEFORE Macross changes everything.

[Strum Wealh]

Odanan, on 01 September 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Now that's very important information. I had no idea. The fact FASA used the unseen BEFORE Macross changes everything.

It would be... but it's not (necessarily) the case.

Super Dimension Fortress Macross (produced by Studio Nue, and distinct from Harmony Gold's Robotech) originally aired on Oct. 03, 1982.
Battledroids (the precursor to BattleTech) was originally released in sometime around August of 1984 (from the court documents, linked below).
Robotech (as distinct from Macross) originally aired on March 04, 1985.
"Battledroids" became "BattleTech" sometime in the Fall of 1985 "pursuant to a settlement between FASA and LucasFilm" (from the court documents, linked below).

And all was well... until ~1994.

• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (December 05-07, 1994)
  
• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (June 19-23, 1995)
  
• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (January 22, 1996)

In December of 1991, a FASA rep apparently met with a rep from Playmates Toys to discuss production and sales of a BT-related toyline. Playmates apparently declined a license for BT-related toys, but went ahead and produced similar designs for their ExoSquad toyline.
One example is the "ExoSquad Heavy Attack E-Frame", pictured below and clearly modeled on the Mad Cat:

In response, FASA (along with Virtual World Entertainment) sued Playmates. The details of the proceedings can be read at the above-bulleted links.

And then came the issue with Harmony Gold (who, at the time, had a business relationship with Playmates):

• HARMONY GOLD U.S.A., INC., a corporation, and PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., a corporation, Plaintiffs, v. FASA CORPORATION, a corporation, and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, a corporation, Defendants (June 12-13, 1996)
  
• HARMONY GOLD U.S.A., INC, a corporation; and PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., a corporation, Plaintiffs, v. FASA CORPORATION, a corporation; and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, a corporation, Defendants (November 06-07, 1996)

And, well, we know what happened from there...

[empath]

I STILL wonder about the quality (and indeed, competence) of FASA's legal representation in their original case against Playmates Toys in that Justice Castillo HAD to find that the Plaintiff "had not sufficiently proved their case" over something THIS BLEEPING OBVIOUS???



But yeah, thanks for the correction; I guess #2 & #3 swap, then.

My point stands, FASA (tortuously) secured a 'make and market model kits' license for the S.Nue artwork before Harmony Gold got their 'exclusive' license - that, in my layman's opinion, should have made HG want some very pointed discussions with their licensor, Tatsunoko Productions...

[KANE LIVES]

Turook, on 31 August 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

There are no legal problems with using the Reseen designs as people keep mentioning, thats why they are Reseen.
I will be sad if the canon Mechs will be left out of the game as I have been playing it since 1986.
I'm not going to carry on about how I like this Reseen but not that one. Just to have them in the game would be enough.
As has been mentioned al art has to be passed through Alex and while I am so happy that the game Hunchback looks only vaugely like the tabletop version (c'mon guys it was designed nearly 30 years ago and the pewter manufacturing technology was a little basic then) I do feel that the current line of Mechs being produced look fantastic (mostly) and shouldn't need much if any redesigning.

The only thing that I am curious about, if someone can tell me. why was the Stone rhino redesigned from

Only problem, that big gun is a Small Laser.