104 replies to this topic

[Nebfer]

While the rules for coolant pods have been posted Tactical ops mentions the R&D dates for them (Basically they sink an extra heat point per heat sink for a single turn, regardless of heat sink type and regardless of how many you add only one can be used per turn, also if hit they go boom for 10 points of damage).

The Fed Com started R&D on them in 3041, prototypes showed up around 3049 (for the Clans it's 3055 & 3056 respectively).
With them being introduced for general production by 3079. Though for much of the intervening time they where largely used by Solaris gladiators (no idea what the clans where doing with them).

So yes Coolant pods are available in universe at this time for their use in game.

[Marauder3D]

Coolant is a crutch.

Classic mech weapons problem: having a balance between ballistic, energy, and missile weapons that allows you to output damage and yet not overheat. An autocannon and 2 medium lasers can be fired and never generate more heat than you can dissipate. This weapon set up can be fired steadily on a target.

10 medium lasers would generate a veritable firestorm of heat. Firing it should fry your mech. Thinking about firing it should make you cringe. Coolant pods trivialize this fact. Coolant throws the delicate balance of good weapon loadouts out the window and allows people to boat lasers with no negative ramifications.

Lastly, having read and owning all the canon up to just past Tukayyid in 3052 (aside from Max Tech, which I can't abide), I can tell you coolant pods before that date are pure retcon. To my knowledge FASA didn't contemplate something in either the original TRO 3025 or 3050 that would let people circumvent heat is such a total fashion.

Just my opinion, but coolant pods are a terrible idea.

[Nebfer]

Marauder3D, on 02 November 2011 - 12:08 PM, said:

Coolant is a crutch.

Classic mech weapons problem: having a balance between ballistic, energy, and missile weapons that allows you to output damage and yet not overheat. An autocannon and 2 medium lasers can be fired and never generate more heat than you can dissipate. This weapon set up can be fired steadily on a target.

10 medium lasers would generate a veritable firestorm of heat. Firing it should fry your mech. Thinking about firing it should make you cringe. Coolant pods trivialize this fact. Coolant throws the delicate balance of good weapon loadouts out the window and allows people to boat lasers with no negative ramifications.

Lastly, having read and owning all the canon up to just past Tukayyid in 3052 (aside from Max Tech, which I can't abide), I can tell you coolant pods before that date are pure retcon. To my knowledge FASA didn't contemplate something in either the original TRO 3025 or 3050 that would let people circumvent heat is such a total fashion.

Actually the only real retcon was providing them a in universe introduction date.
The earliest showing is with Unbound (which was published in 1991), which is set in 3053, but it provides no dates for when the item was introduced, so as far as the universe knew it could of been 3030 or 3053. The next showing is 3055 with the Tactical Handbook, which also gives no introduction dates, then Max tech (post 3055) and again no intro dates. Then we get Tactical ops (3075) and we finely get an intro date of 3049. Basically before tactical ops all we knew is that it was available in 3053 it could of just entered the proto type stage that year or a few years earlier.

Also pointing out TRO 3025 is silly as the items was not available at that time, TRO 3050 (set in 3052 in fact) also dose you no good as the item in question was created a year later in real life... (1990 vs 1991), also typically the TROs do not often use experimental or prototype equipment, so again you would not have seen it due to that fact. Even scenario packs often do not use experimental gear.

[Rajun]

I have used the flush in the Tesla Pods before. Usually only alive for just one flush Still though, for an online simulator, I would have to go with the no coolant flush option. However , when the Clanners show up, could be a quick way to remove pesky Elementals ...

Edited by Rajun, 02 November 2011 - 01:25 PM.

[KingCobra]

After reading this thread there are many good ideas after playing for so long 1989-now in the mechwarrior series i would say do away with the coolant flush alltogether in favor of a coolant system based on the mechs weapon slots balistic mechs have a smaller coolant system and energy based mechs have a larger cooling system built into the mech chassis.Additional better coolant systems could be won in PVP arena battles or purchased in your Clan or IS auction house.Also i would take away the alpha strike altogether in its place i would make it so only 1 weapon group with a limit of 3 weapons per group and limit the groups to 5 each weapon group would have a delay of 4-6 sec between firing groups.In this way your coolant system would really work and if you did overheat by some chance then you would have to pay the price of non-heat management.

[Marauder3D]

nebfer, on 02 November 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

Actually the only real retcon was providing them a in universe introduction date.
The earliest showing is with Unbound (which was published in 1991), which is set in 3053, but it provides no dates for when the item was introduced, so as far as the universe knew it could of been 3030 or 3053. The next showing is 3055 with the Tactical Handbook, which also gives no introduction dates, then Max tech (post 3055) and again no intro dates. Then we get Tactical ops (3075) and we finely get an intro date of 3049. Basically before tactical ops all we knew is that it was available in 3053 it could of just entered the proto type stage that year or a few years earlier.

Also pointing out TRO 3025 is silly as the items was not available at that time, TRO 3050 (set in 3052 in fact) also dose you no good as the item in question was created a year later in real life... (1990 vs 1991), also typically the TROs do not often use experimental or prototype equipment, so again you would not have seen it due to that fact. Even scenario packs often do not use experimental gear.

Actually, TRO 3050 put in a ton of new equipment, as well as omnimechs and elementals. So TRO's do introduce new ideas. If no novel or sourcebook dealt with coolant pods pre Tukayyid, which is the era MWO begins at, then introducing them in 3049 would be retconning as far as I'm concerned.

[SilverWings]

raj, on 02 November 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

I like this idea. It could also be interesting to add elements of heatstroke if you push your mech too hot. Have your pilot's vision blur, heavy breathing, maybe even shaking hands on the controls.

Actually the pilots wear a coolant vest and remain relatively cool compared to the temperature of the cockpit when in heavy combat. I'm not to sure but I also think that the neurohelmet also has a small cooling element in it.

[CobraFive]

Its a fine system but it shouldn't be universal like it was in MW3/MW4.

For example you need to equip coolant, and it costs weight/criticals to do so. So its a tradeoff. More guns, armor, or coolant?

Even if its limited use like MW3/MW4 it diminishes the importance of heat management.

[Ooya]

Kazimir Kerensky, on 02 November 2011 - 04:33 PM, said:

Actually the pilots wear a coolant vest and remain relatively cool compared to the temperature of the cockpit when in heavy combat. I'm not to sure but I also think that the neurohelmet also has a small cooling element in it.

Relatively is the operative word. The cooling vests are still not enough as numerous books have descriptions of the heat so bad, they nearly passed out from it. It was one of the reasons the rare cooling suits were so prized in the Inner Sphere, they did a much better job than the vests.

[Phades]

If it was implemented as a cool over time, instead of instant effect and limited in use and can be damaged would be the only way i'd like to see it in the game.

[DHG REAPERX]

Here's my thoughts (rant), balance the heat load correctly. Heat should dissipate subjective to the environment, torso / leg movement etc. When it comes to Flamers and PPC's its gonna be tough because they ultimately effect both the person dishing out the punishment and the person on the business end who just became an easy bake oven. Water, night, desert areas cloud cover etc should be a factor. It could be easily programmed by creating each tile with a heat coefficient + or - such as lava or water as an example. In regards to coolant.. if it isn't in the canon for this time period it shouldn't be allowed. In regards to weapons balancing, the past mechwarrior's have been pro laser tech, however I agree with most above there is an art to balancing a mech with the proper ammo load out etc. Wanna know why peeps don't like running AC20's with 5 shots per ton? Because its hard but oh so worth it if your a crack shot. We don't need no stinkin' coolant pods, if you want your mech to run cooler... add heat sinks that's what they're there for. Tthat way the next time you think you're going to create some laser monster, adding single and double heat sink technology (if canon allows it) is going to be king. Want to make a laser boat? Fine, Its gonna cost you in speed and engine size. What to make a nightmare Mauler with 4 LBX 10's? guess what you're gonna need to consider ammo and that in turn is going to create risk for losing limbs and *** forbid an ammo explosion. I know this is long but seriously, I want a strategically strong, mentally challenging game with lots of variation and action... NOT a game newbs and kiddies can jump in, create boats and lopsided wins. On a further note I'm a vet of MW3, I used to total mechs all day long with heavy med 3 laser elementals who couldn't catch me " due to a ridiculous lag shot and the fact i was 162 kph" it was fun... for me but not the others. Thanks for listening.

[Applejack]

I hope the developers heed the discussion of this thread. I think it is very clear that the majority of the (vocal) fanbase does not want Coolant in the game and has canonical, background reasons for it not be included, as well as gameplay, fun and balance factors that only contribute to the argument.

[Mackie Ozora]

There can be coolant pods but no free coolant for everyone.

Learn to control heat.

[Dr Hobo]

Yes and no. A one shot "Oh **** I need to stop this guy yesterday" kind of deal. And it costs to refil after a use and you ONLY get a single use. Its basically a last ditch attempt to sacrifice yourself and take someone with you. But its not something you can spam.

Coolant dumps are also another last ditch emergency. You dump your coolant you suffer greatly for it. Your heat skyrockets,your mobilty drops,your fire rate slows.You can and will shut down much faster,your sensors will shut down and be much less effective.

Basically a coolant pod would flush your system thus once the flush is done,you lose it so a coolant pod or a straight flush in the long run is a very dicey thing to use,and should only be used in an absolute emergency. Once the dump is done,you become a burden to your team. Its basically the emergency last ditch attempt tool.

[Nebfer]

Marauder3D, on 02 November 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

Actually, TRO 3050 put in a ton of new equipment, as well as omnimechs and elementals. So TRO's do introduce new ideas. If no novel or sourcebook dealt with coolant pods pre Tukayyid, which is the era MWO begins at, then introducing them in 3049 would be retconning as far as I'm concerned.

However No TRO or novel as far as I know of has ever used experimental tech, until recently.

TRO 3050 did not (partly due to the fact that this stuff in real life was a year a way), TROs 3055, 3057, 3058, 3060, 3067 and TRO Project Phoenixalso did not use any experimental items. The novels to my knowledge also do not use or mention experimental items (if they do it's not a prominent item, and I do know items like AP and Precision ammo is mentioned in the novels, but their production items not experimental, on the other hand they where introduced post clan invasion), not even the ones set in 3067. Not even the field manuals used them, and they introduced a fair bit of gear, even though some of the experimental items existed long before them.

The fact that none of these TROs even use such items and the lack of novel time, even though they have been around for some time is telling. As they did not get used in latter products, it's more than likely that if they where available at the time when TRO 3050 was made, that they would of been ignored.
If it is a retcon can you tell me the exact date for the coolant pod when it was "first" introduced? The fact is you can not, as their is no date given at all for the item and no such date was given until Tactical ops, the fact that the book was set in 3053 dose not mean the item it self only became available that year.

Technically if one only had max tech (or the tactical hand book) due to the lack of information given in that book one could easily assume that the item was introduced around the time the book was set in.


Note: some experimental tech has found it self in some of the upgraded TROs, notably TRO 3055Us Solaris mechs, but these have come out in the last few years, and most often are newer mechs.

[VYCanis]

i like the idea of coolant flushes using up the actual coolant that your mech relies on for its normal cooling.

maybe the way it works is like a-so

All mechs can coolant flush, Coolant flush cools you NOW, but unless you can go rearm, your mech's heatsinks are operating at a reduced capacity immediately afterwards, proportional to how much you dumped. You can dump all the way down to some minimal point where the heatsinks are operating at only like 10 or 15% or so, just enough to keep the average mech from cooking itself from just being on, but not much more.

You can add coolant pods that give you a bit of a buffer zone before you start dumping your standard supply, but they take up weight, space, can explode when hit. and if they pop, they always destroy a few heatsinks on the mech in addition to damaging the location they are mounted in.

In this way, if you want your emergency, "oh ****, heat go away!" button, you have to deal with serious consequences

[Tigerhawk71]

Wow, that "no thanks" option is pretty loaded, don't you think?


Make it a once-only thing. No upgrades, no additional uses, no changes.

You can dump ONCE, you lose all your heat. Makes it so if someone wants to risk thier life to deal more damage, they do it at a cost.

But NOT "hurdurr i want to make energy weapons irrelevant". Think about it - If they get in trouble for some other reason, like some nutcase running around in a light with flamers... what are they gunna do about it if they blow thier coolant use on an alpha strike?

It's believeable and it's balanced to think a heavy, EXPENSIVE mech would have a backup system like this, but only good for one emergency use. It's less of a stretch than saying such a machine has no failsafe against one of its major problems.


Ballistic weapons are powerful enough. The only problem was how you could micromanage the coolant flush to get the most out of it. Have it a use-once "failsafe" mechanic, not something people can abuse. I see no reason to completely remove it besides the aforementioned loaded poll question scenario.

[Jack Deth]

VYCanis, on 02 November 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

i like the optional coolant pod approach.

sure you have coolant, you can have LOTS of coolant, but every pod takes up weight, space, and is just itching to explode.

Additionally, i'd go so far as to say there really needs to be some disadvantage to double heatsinks, because aside from being a little pricer, there is almost never any reason to use single HS.

Maybe making them easier to damage/destroy? Maybe making them more vulnerable to flamers and nearby fires due to the larger surface area? i dunno.

The disadvantage to double heatsinks is how much **** space they take up, especially the Inner Sphere version. At three crits a pop you can't fit a lot of them in there. Take a look at any Assault or Heavy mech that mounts large weapons (autocannon, gauss, LRM-20s, etc). A lot of them use single heatsinks because there's no room in there for doubles. This can even effect smaller mechs if they're slower ones with smaller engines (less of the heat sinks are built into the engine) and they want to rock Endo Steel and Ferro-Fibrous as those take up a whole mess of crit slots too.

[VYCanis]

don't forget though, it only takes adding 1 double heatsink and your free engine sinks are automatically turned into doubles, for free.

in many mechs, you easily get massive amounts of weight and crit savings in just tearing out all the old single heatsinks and replacing it with 1 double. and sometimes still have more cooling power than you did originally.

[Souske Sagara]

Sod coolant, never used it on the grid, never used it in the vid. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the firefight.