104 replies to this topic

[Varador]

Redtail, on 01 November 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'd like to see coolant able to be flushed... But at a considerable penalty.
After you vent all your coolant, what the hell else do you use to transport heat? The reactor would have to shunt into a "limp mode" producing a reduced power output, and fired weapons would have a considerably longer cooldown time.

You've just ejected all the fluid you were using to transport heat from your weapons and reactor to your heat sinks and radiating surfaces. You've also gotten rid of a lot of heat in the process, making it possible to fire one last suicidal (or sacrificial) shot at an enemy, in order to roll the dice on saving yourself in a split second and limping back to the dropship for extraction, or perhaps to go out in a blaze of glory by taking the enemy down with you when you would have otherwise died an undignified death.

This way, venting overheating coolant would be an emergency option for use in dire emergencies, as opposed to just something to do regularly.

I love the concept of going out in a blaze of glory, its a brilliant concept. Coolant could have its place as long as it is balanced correctly, it needs to have dire effects if you're removing your entire store.

[PropWash]

Virtual World had a fairly extensive 'Coolant' system in the 4.x iteration of the Tesla cockpits.

The idea was that each region of the 'Mech would have a 'Coolant Loop'.

All items in this coolant loop were cooled by the fluid within that loop (weapons, sensors, myomers, etc)

In the event that the pilot wanted to allocate additional coolant to a particular hot loop, he could, but only at the expense of pulling coolant from other loops. (sensors dont need coolant anyways!)

However, there is no free lunch in BattleTech.

If you poorly managed that loop, eventually it would still overheat and cause heat damage to other items within that loop.

Addiitonally, every time you flushed coolant to rapidly purge heat, you reduced the overall cooling capacity of the 'Mech.

Worse yet, if you took severe damage or a good crit to a regional coolant loop, you could leak fluid, further purging your overall cooling capacity until you turn that coolant loop completely off, effectively losing the ability to utilize any items within that loop (No PPC for you).

Did I mention this all happens in the heat of battle?

And that you were also fighting weapons fire, jams, generator issues (4 generators managed like coolant loops) all the while people are SHOOTING AT YOU.

In the end we realized...Its the 31st century, Some things would simply be automated.

Edited by PropWash, 03 November 2011 - 04:35 AM.

[Hagan]

I'm all for having coolant so long as there are some tweaks.

For a start, make it an item you have to install, not something that's part of the mech to begin with. It takes up space and uses ammunition that must be replenished after every battle (whether its used or not) or has a shelf life if not used. Make the ammo and dispenser a destroyable item, lets face it, a pressurised canister of anything is going to go boom if hit, which will result in damage. A knock on effect would be damage to the chassis but at least it would kill any fires (bad news, good news).

Much like ECM, ECCM, TAG and other modules, make it an activation item (not an automatic) so it can be handled manually.

Just my two credits worth.

[Tierloc]

Quote

No. I don't want a Hunchback with 10 Medium Lasers alpha striking then dumping all of it's coolant whilst taking no damage and being ready to alpha strike again in 4 seconds.

I find this choice embellished (and silly). What does a coolant functionality poll have to do with your opinion a chassis takes no damage? Can a Hunchback in MW4 carry 10 medium lasers? What's the recycle time of medium lasers? The answers being drama, no and 3s.


I chose yes but with modifications because I think more things should factor into your heat, like running, jump jets .. you should have to allocate tonnage to the power pool (like coolant pods but the operation is different). The chassis smoked in MW4 which obstructs your view in FFP if you get too hot. Coolant would be missed.

[Havoc2]

Coolant flush wouldn't bother me if heat was properly addressed and loss of coolant caused problems.

You can slowly flush your coolant but it's not going to quickly cool your 'Mech, and will less coolant your 'Mech will run hotter to start, cool down much slower, and run the risk of heat buildup causing damaged ammo (ammo explosions causing you to damage components, or maybe having a round cook off in your weapons and reducing its effectiveness or outright destroying it).
What I would also like to see (and I mentioned in another thread) is heat effecting your pilot. Run too hot for too long and your 'Mech shuts down. Maybe your pilot's stamina is low and he/she passes out.

[MagnusEffect]

What bothers me is the mechanics behind "flushing" coolant. Based off of the game's tech, a mech only carries so much coolant. When flushing, you are essentially dumping the "hot coolant" (coolant that has absorbed most of the current heat in a mech) and replacing it with the remaining "cold coolant". However, by doing so you are left with LESS COOLING CAPACITY. In previous games, nothing was taking in to account for this.

WAIT! I just thought of a better example. Coolant flushing should be handled similar to SWEATING:
A mech purges "liquid" to ventilate heat to the outside. However, like the human body, a mech only carries so much "liquid". The more you "purge" the faster you ventilate "TEMPORARY HEAT" (i.e. weapon heat buildup). HOWEVER, your mech still generates a "CONSTANT HEAT" just from the engine, running systems, etc. Flush too much coolant and you suddenly are having to fight just to keep your mech operational all together! Suddenly, the lame coolant flush "feature" becomes this neat balance between maximizing firepower and totally ******** yourself

Another way explaining involving math:

100 ton mech = 2 tons of coolant
assume half is required to function at normal capacity (mechs need A LOT of coolant)
-1) pilot fires all weapons; heat spikes into shutdown mode
-2)PILOT PANICS; rather than flushing "just enough" to take him out of shutdown mode, he flushes all the current coolant in his systems (effectively half)
-3)remaining coolant takes over, systems are running at optimum levels
-4)pilot alphas a second time immediately after (he's a dummy for an assault pilot); again, heat spikes into shut down mode
-5)now comes a quick hard decision;
----5a)does he flush again (just enough this time), but in doing so, he has 25% less coolant than optimum, making his mech 25% LESS EFFECTIVE for the remainder of the fight ----(the math: 1 ton required to operate normally; 2 tons maximum, 1 ton already spent, 1 ton left in mech, .25 tons flushed to bring out of shutdown = .75 tons of coolant left... 25% less than optimum for running all systems!)
----5b)he takes one on the chin and lets his hot tub shut down. he can take the time to remind himself why ALPHA STRIKES ARE SUPPOSE TO BE RARE/SCARY EVENTS!

Obviously, packing more heat sinks should fix problems by mitigating how far heat can POTENTIALLY rise, NOT how much coolant you can flush.

Two warhammers, but one has double the heatsinks, DOESN'T mean he has DOUBLE the coolant. It just means the cooler running one can fire twice as much before overheating (to put it simply).

They could even bring in another "cool" feature where shutting down secondary systems such as radar, individual weapons, etc. could help with dealing of heat. Of course the old stand by of STANDING IN WATER should help. It should be more effective than previously if you ask me. They use sea water to cool FREAKING FISSION REACTORS FOR CHRISTSAKE!


KEEP IN MIND MY EXAMPLES AND MATH ARE JUST FIGURES I GRABBED ON THE FLY. The overall idea, though, I think is really THE BEST solution.

Edited by MagnusEffect, 03 November 2011 - 09:02 PM.

[MagnusEffect]

oops.. apparently i can't find the edit button. just wanted to say i realize i'm sort of reiterating what others said before me, but i thought some written out examples would help

[mbt201188]

coolant doesnt really make sense. That and it really makes energy based mechs and ammo based mechs the same with the former never running out of ammo

[Eegxeta]

I think coolant flushing should be kept but the penalties for flushing coolant should be more harsh. Flushing coolant shouldn't cool down the mech as effectively and flushing coolant runs a high chance to damage the cooling system of the mech. Weapons can break in high heat and in high heat weapons aren't as efficient.

[Phades]

Going to throw this out there as well.

In what way is the effect of coolant any different than walking your mech into a river, lake, or in zero atmospheric conditions (assuming dark side facing)?

I think the big hang up is that it has been implemented wrong in a previous iteration of the game and left foul taste in people's mouths, which is totally understandable. The coolant shouldn't be a get out of jail free card, but just another option for head management that can make sense for certain builds. Also, I hate the near total dependency on double heat sinks in general as they smack of clan tech and turn folks into treasure hunter/looters first and pilots second.

[ice trey]

No onboard coolant systems whatsoever, please.

Like your example with the Hunchback (though it seemed to rear it's ugly head more with Clan Weaponry, since Clan ER Large Lasers were a jump snipers' bread and butter, and coolant flushing was way too effective), it all but removes the disadvantage of energy weapons - the only one it has, and pretty much gives players two or three volleys of just about anything before they run out.

The problem is that in multiplayer, you are expected to break even at one kill per death - granted that it's an even fight. With coolant flushing, if you're min-maxing your 'mechs to do one-shot kills, mashing the coolant button means you can kill off two or three opponents before ever having to deal with heat concerns - a 3 to 1 kills/deaths ratio is way too good in my books.

What is more, like you said, it makes all the ballistics look like garbage when their low-heat advantages are ignored anyway, when you kill three guys, die, and respawn with a new fresh tank of coolant. Even if you don't have respawning, it still gives energy weapons too much of an advantage.

If you want to cope with heat better - cram on heat sinks and stagger your fire. While I'm all for new and effective techniques in the game, If there is one tactic that simply *can't* be countered - it points to a flaw in the game. In every franchise, balance is key.


Now, offboard coolant flushing... that, I'm OK with. the old Coolant Truck from TRO 3025 would be nice to see appearing in this game for mechs that are suffering engine hits or heat sink failure - in which your heat sinks can't even meet the heat put out from walking - and bodies of water I'm OK with, as it can't be brought around with you (It's using the terrain to your advantage). But just being able to shrug off heat with the push of a button? That seems dumb.

AMMO EXPLOSIONS need to be brought back into this, too. Ride that heat curve too high, and risk having your 'mech go off like a firecracker.

Edited by ice trey, 03 November 2011 - 10:12 PM.

[Tierloc]

There are other things that coolant is used for besides cooling down after weapon discharge.

Enemies with inferno rockets.
Enemies with flamers.
Enemies with inferno thunder missles.
Map based variables, like lava pits.
Map based heat index.
Explosions of other mechs.
Explosions of map based static objects like fuel tanks, trucks, buildiings.


Heat does affect your chassis. It can damage you, it slows you down, you can self destruct from it. To say coolant is solely used for weapon heat management is extremely short sighted. I find the coolant pool as a useful item and is more realistic than a coolant pod, as it doesn't refresh or reload once it is utilized. Modern day engines/electronics have passive and active cooling systems. What if you had to manually cool your computer's CPU instead of heatsinks and fans, or the engine in your car instead of wind and your radiator. How you applied coolant is directly porportional to how fast/big they were, and with a limited amount of coolant to apply - you would manage it accordingly or not. I do not see a difference.

Being able to cool your mech is essential to run and gun operations, not for alpha strikes. If I was hidden behind an object and pop tarting, I wouldn't even use coolant.

After 8 years of experience with MW4, sometimes I think you guys have never played the game before.

[Tierloc]

I forgot the following:

Enemies with Plasma Cannons.
Enemies with Inferno SRMs.
Enemies with Interno AGL.


I guess my point is, even with only ballistic weapons you still have a need to cool your chassis sometimes.

[RangerRob]

No Coolant flush please....

Old schooler here. Coolant to me seemed like "cheating" the system. You want to run two PPC's..you deal with the effects of the heat on your mech. No bypassing the heat impact. Makes the low heat weapons (Autocannons, Gauss, etc...) less enticing.

Downside of the direct fire ballistic weapons are their weight and ammo bins.
Downside for the Laser / PPC weapons...their heat.

Coolant bypasses that game mechanic...even if only for a short time (until the coolant runs out)

[Sabbathiel]

Redtail, on 01 November 2011 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'd like to see coolant able to be flushed... But at a considerable penalty.
After you vent all your coolant, what the hell else do you use to transport heat? The reactor would have to shunt into a "limp mode" producing a reduced power output, and fired weapons would have a considerably longer cooldown time.

You've just ejected all the fluid you were using to transport heat from your weapons and reactor to your heat sinks and radiating surfaces. You've also gotten rid of a lot of heat in the process, making it possible to fire one last suicidal (or sacrificial) shot at an enemy, in order to roll the dice on saving yourself in a split second and limping back to the dropship for extraction, or perhaps to go out in a blaze of glory by taking the enemy down with you when you would have otherwise died an undignified death.

This way, venting overheating coolant would be an emergency option for use in dire emergencies, as opposed to just something to do regularly.

I agree. Well done!

[wanderer]

Of course, what you then see are "Suicide Sallys" that are designed to basically empty out immense amounts of firepower, flush, then do it again and blow themselves skyhigh/shutdown ...while taking out something much bigger in the process.

I hate Suicide Sallys. Being able to cheat the system is why they added coolant flushes to Mechwarrior. They don't belong to begin with.

Now, coolant PODS...those actually make sense in Battletech terms, and exist in-canon. You want to give yourself a temporary increased rate of cooldown, those work- and they take up weight/crits/can explode if hit.

Put them in, instead- even if it's not quite the right date for anything but prototype versions.

[Razor Kotovsky]

Haven't you played league games, wanderer? Coolant was only used as a failsafe measure there because it is one wave only and serious business.

MW4 coolant system, however, was way too efficient.

Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 04 November 2011 - 01:02 PM.

[Tempered]

Your mech needs coolant so it should be in. You should also develop coolant leaks from taking hits.

Imagine taking a barrage of srms to the left side of your mech and seeing a cloud of neon green steam rise out of your arm, near where you put that large laser. Next thing you know, warning lights are going off in the cockpit and you see your coolant pressure drop and laser temperature rise. Quickly you shut off the coolant pumps to the left arm, saving your remaining coolant. You unchain your now useless large laser from the firing order so you don't accidentally fire it and cause a severe heat build up.
Your opponent with the coolant leak wasn't as observant as you and didn't notice that he was belching coolant. He goes to fire off his large laser and is greeted with an explosion from the weapon melting down and igniting the auto cannon ammo that was just below it

[Phades]

Tempered, on 04 November 2011 - 03:07 PM, said:

Your mech needs coolant so it should be in. You should also develop coolant leaks from taking hits.

Imagine taking a barrage of srms to the left side of your mech and seeing a cloud of neon green steam rise out of your arm, near where you put that large laser. Next thing you know, warning lights are going off in the cockpit and you see your coolant pressure drop and laser temperature rise. Quickly you shut off the coolant pumps to the left arm, saving your remaining coolant. You unchain your now useless large laser from the firing order so you don't accidentally fire it and cause a severe heat build up.
Your opponent with the coolant leak wasn't as observant as you and didn't notice that he was belching coolant. He goes to fire off his large laser and is greeted with an explosion from the weapon melting down and igniting the auto cannon ammo that was just below it

/\ This would be awesome.

[FireBlood]

There simply shouldn't be a coolant flush. What happened to being smart with heat management and using the shutdown override? Dancing on the edge of a thermal meltdown whilst firing everything you have at that last enemy mech IS a major part of what made past mech games great.