145 replies to this topic

[Trooper60709]

;) clan tech should not outclass IS tech to much, but MW4mercs was Waaaaayyyyyyyyyy too complicated.
Maybe standard, IS, or clan menu wouldbe nice...

[Sam Slade]

I know if I was on the dev team I'd be thinking Mad Cat/Timberwolf...$50... I'll buy one, so will you.

Just do it Devs, the money will be amazing.

[Trooper60709]

The things stated above are true, but even with those mesures clan tech just is better we need some IS stuff to counter the clan outbreak.
You would think Steiner or Davion would put in a few billion c-bills on counter tech. The only reason the clans havn't won is their small numbers,so lets keep it that way!

[Msyrin]

One thing that i think a lot of canon lovers (not that i don't count myself as one) forget is that part of the reason why the clans can (and eventually do) lose to IS forces is that they fight stupid. Single combat only, bidding themselves down to "fair" numbers, considering melee combat (ramming) unfair/dishonorable, stuff like that. So if you follow the canon the only way stay true to the clans tech advantage without breaking them (balance wise) is to force people to play that way. If i were a dev. that would mean I would have to come up with a way to make those actions be penalized so heavily that most players would never consider playing as a clanner. The simple fact of the matter is if you force limitations on the way people play then you are going to lose players

What I propose is this:

1) Clan mechs/tech cannot be purchased traded etc.
2) Have special "clan invasion" scenarios against AI opponents or players/dev's who only fight using clan ROE's
3) Victors of these special scenarios have a chance to salvage clan components/mechs/etc.

This makes it so that people can get clan tech. If they have the skill, teamwork and luck to defeat a clan team. This would make having clan tech more like an achievement rather than an "I win cuz i haz moneyz" feature. Also it would allow the game to stay closer to the canon. After all clan tech does eventually flow into the hands of the IS...in relatively limited quantities.

[WidowMaker91]

exactrly

HardLuck, on 12 September 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Balance? Why balance it at all so many IS keep bragging that there so good, so just leave the clan tech the way it is and let us see who is truely the better warriors really are. Some clan tech is just lighter, faster reload, less heat output and so on and so on. All I hear is crybabys trying to get the ball and the Dev's on their side.

exactly what i was thinking while reading this thread, makes no sense, yes have the clan weapon / ammo be more expensive as it is in every game, but dont make it 10x more..... Clan weapons usually have less weight, faster fire rate, more damage, and longer range then the IS version.

Edited by WidowMaker91, 14 September 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[Arkhangel]

Damion Sparhawk, on 12 September 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

problem I see with making clan tech cost prohibitive is this, simply put, it makes it so that those willing to pay more, or spend more time, will win. Either people will pay for c-bills so they can keep their clan tech mechs and just swallow the repair costs, or they'll build up a large amount of c-bills through grinding so they can run their clantech without remorse as well, repairs in my opinion are only going to be a deterrent to the casual player and even those, only the ones who're not going to be willing to pay in, which will lead to complaints about supposed 'pay to win' even though there isn't anything currently in the game that is unobtainable without using real money.

dunno, i think making they prohibitively expensive to buy, AND repair AND make them be matched up with stuff heavier than them all TOGETHER would be the best idea, honestly. fact is, this game is likely gonna be more for the PILOTING SKILL than anything else. i'd be willing to be for real-life cash it'll probably just be buying mechs (which you ca n only use one of at a time anyways, new skins for mechs, etc. as that guys said, sure, load all your clan tech onto your Timberwolf, let's see how you like the repair bill you could buy an Medium IS Lance for when you get mangled running into an organized team

WidowMaker91, on 14 September 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

exactrly



exactly what i was thinking while reading this thread, makes no sense, yes have the clan weapon / ammo be more expensive as it is in every game, but dont make it 10x more..... Clan weapons usually have less weight, faster fire rate, more damage, and longer range then the IS version.

which is exactly why they SHOULD be that price.

[Arkhangel]

Msyrin, on 14 September 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

One thing that i think a lot of canon lovers (not that i don't count myself as one) forget is that part of the reason why the clans can (and eventually do) lose to IS forces is that they fight stupid. Single combat only, bidding themselves down to "fair" numbers, considering melee combat (ramming) unfair/dishonorable, stuff like that. So if you follow the canon the only way stay true to the clans tech advantage without breaking them (balance wise) is to force people to play that way. If i were a dev. that would mean I would have to come up with a way to make those actions be penalized so heavily that most players would never consider playing as a clanner. The simple fact of the matter is if you force limitations on the way people play then you are going to lose players

What I propose is this:

1) Clan mechs/tech cannot be purchased traded etc.
2) Have special "clan invasion" scenarios against AI opponents or players/dev's who only fight using clan ROE's
3) Victors of these special scenarios have a chance to salvage clan components/mechs/etc.

This makes it so that people can get clan tech. If they have the skill, teamwork and luck to defeat a clan team. This would make having clan tech more like an achievement rather than an "I win cuz i haz moneyz" feature. Also it would allow the game to stay closer to the canon. After all clan tech does eventually flow into the hands of the IS...in relatively limited quantities.

that's actually a decent idea. course, then all the clan fanboys will whine they can't join an actual clan.

[DoRkZiLLaa]

The obvious answer is cost+numbers. Costs a lot to run clantech (Maybe scaling more/less based on how many clan players there are) and have Clan stars fight two lances. (5v8, 10v16, 15v24, ect.).

Creates a canonical scenario where the clans are outnumbered, while making it also canonically expensive to play (or more so, if enough people play Clan).

[Dymitry]

Leave Clantech to Clans. IS mechs, per canon, cannot mount Clan weapons. Balance IS fights vs Clan fights with numbers/bidding process.

Simples.

[Stormwolf]

Dymitry, on 15 September 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Leave Clantech to Clans. IS mechs, per canon, cannot mount Clan weapons.

Yes, they don't figure out how to do it till after 3052:

[Thomas Kerensky]

Make it economically unfeasible to play Clan Omni mechs and using Clan tech by making repairs, custumastion, weapons, gear, armour, internal structure, engines etc. etc. more expensive than the player can earn in battle so when you buy and use a Clan Omni mech it will cost the player C-bills to do battle and if using Clan tech on inner Sphere battle mechs make them so prohibitively expensive to use that the battle earnings will be neglible at best.

This should put a brake on the ammount of Clan mechs and Clan tech in use by IS battlemechs so that they will not screw game balance.

[New Day]

Grendel408, on 12 September 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

The Devs have clearly stated that you can't purchase C-bills... you can purchase more MCs... not C-bills, all that's gonna give you is a chance to purchase 'Mechs.

But you can purcahse MC, buy a mech then sell it which basically amounts to buying CBs.

[The Basilisk]

I think one of the most commonly made mistakes when comparing Clan Tech with IS 3025 Tech or even with Starleague Tech that no one sees its disadvantages.
The following thoughts regard Techlevel of the invading Clans in 3050 according to TRO

-1st Heat: Clan weapons espetialy the energy weapons generate wast amounts of heat over short times.
Imagine fireing a Clan ER Medium Laser.
4 IS M Lasers do 12 Heat, 4 Clan Lasers do 20. 8 more heat for 8 points of dmg.
IS 5 dmg each Clan 7 each.
Clan (double) Heatsinks take up 2 slots for 2 Points of heat to sink.
IS (double) Heatsinks use 3 slots and sink 2 Heat, but remember you wouldn't need that much of them.

-2nd Availability: This isn't MW4 where every one just puts mixed Tech weapons on its chassis.
Did noboddy think about how to get clan weapons and how much it will cost to aquire, repair and maintain them ?

-3rd since this isn't the beta forum we can't realy discuss the mechanics of balancing already used in Game.
Let me put it this way there are already weapons that would be seriously imba if the wouldn't have significant drawbacks. Think about it.

[Dymitry]

Thomas Kerensky, on 15 September 2012 - 01:24 AM, said:

Make it economically unfeasible to play Clan Omni mechs and using Clan tech by making repairs, custumastion, weapons, gear, armour, internal structure, engines etc. etc. more expensive than the player can earn in battle so when you buy and use a Clan Omni mech it will cost the player C-bills to do battle and if using Clan tech on inner Sphere battle mechs make them so prohibitively expensive to use that the battle earnings will be neglible at best.

This should put a brake on the ammount of Clan mechs and Clan tech in use by IS battlemechs so that they will not screw game balance.

I will say it again for the millionth time, Clantech, including Clan omnis to Clans. Leave IS players free to drop as part of the Clan side in unstaged/unranked/free for all/whatever/ battles, since they like our toys so much.

Costs? They are balanced already. According to Sarna, a Timber Wolf Prime (75 tons) (*sigh* Mad Cat) costs 24.400.000 Cbills, give or take. An Atlas (100 tons) costs 9.626.000. A even better comparison would be a Cataphract (70t), that carries expensive lostech graded equipment (so half way between level 0 and Clantech), costs 13.612.000 CB.

For the price of your Mad Cat, you can field a Centurion, a Catapult, a Jenner and an Atlas. Enough?

[bikerbass77]

I think clan tech will be balanced by heat generation, cost and availability. If you look at other MW games you will see that clan equipment costs a lot more than inner sphere tech and generates much more heat. In Mechwarrior 4 I more often than not went for IS medium lasers rather than the clan models simply because of the heat management issues. Also, in terms of heat per shot damage, I found IS laser weapons to be far more efficient with the exception of X series laser weapons.

What is more, you don't have to be clan to get clan equipment. I don't plan to play as clan quite simply because I see it would be very hard to stick to their honour system.

[Damion Sparhawk]

everyone that keeps saying make them too expensive is failing to see the biggest fallback for that, all that will do in the grand scheme of things is just make this Grind Warrior Online, instead of MWO, because the people willing to commit the most time/resources will be able to maintain and run the best weapons and gear, depending on how quickly you amass c-bills will determine how often you can go out in your best mech but it's just going to come down to time and/or money investment, repairs is NOT a solution, cost is NOT a solution, it never will be, all it does is discourage the casual gamer because they can't play the game the way they want to play it because they can't devote the time or don't care enough to devote the money and then the game becomes PTW.

That said, this is how I think the clan invasion should be done, someone mentioned how the clans like to fight outnumbered because of their honor bid or whatnot, and it's true, according to canon after they realized they were technologically superior in just about every way they felt honorbound to fight on 'equal' grounds, limiting their own forces on the field to account for the technological handicap.

Personally I see this happening, Clans drop not with fewer members than an IS team, but drop DURING an IS match, two IS teams vs. one Clan team... of course, the IS match is still going on so they're not exactly 'friendly' but the clans being the greater threat -might- convince them to join forces... maybe so basically a 1 on 1 on 1 brawl with the clans being the uninvited third party with nice loot to win if you should happen to win the match at all XD

I also like the idea stated above of having the omni-mechs other features being locked in place, only the weapons being omni, I think that definitely gives a good reason for running an IS mech with all it's flaws if it can fit the weapons you want over just running an omni because you can put anything in it. I knew I remembered reading something about Omni's that made them not quite the leaps and bounds above IS mechs that everyone seems to think they are.

Clan weapons are just that, weapons, there's nothing special about them that makes it so you can't mount a clan ERPPC on an IS mech, maybe they should be more fragile like someone else mentioned just to make their non-clan versions still worth considering but I don't see why (after the invasion of course and IS has access to the weapons regularly) they wouldn't simply become the 'norm' I mean, you don't go back and use your ten year old DVD player just because once you buy a new one that works better and does the same stuff, why would you waste time on outdated weapons once you get your hands on the next best thing?

[Beef Hands]

The most OP mech in game so far is the mech that has a pilot on comms with 7 other pilots, nothing is going to change that.
Just make the clan parts more expensive. Problem solved. Let's move on.

Edited by Beef Hands, 16 September 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[Damion Sparhawk]

Beef Hands, on 16 September 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

Just make the clan parts more expensive.. Problem solved. I don't see what all of the hubbub is about this. Sure some people will have OP mechs, but I hate to break it to some people, we already do, we already have the Atlas and it's just another mech, we already have the GaussCat, and it's just another mech. Jenners will be killing Mad Cats the same way they kill Atlases. Guaranteed.

obviously not reading. To reiterate, making things more expensive when dealing with fake money DOESN'T WORK. You generate money by playing the game, barring excessive repair costs (which are determined by how well you do playing) you continue to make money, regardless of how expensive you make them there will be people who will run them all the time simply because they have that much time/money to spend on the game to keep the upkeep of said items.
The only people who suffer from making the item cost prohibitive are the people who don't play as much, or are unwilling to invest enough in the game to maintain that upkeep.
so unless you just want to make the game only fun for the people who have no lives or have boatloads of RL cash, QUIT PITCHING THIS CRAP.

[MSgt Starkiller]

what about letting a limited number of members get clan mechs first and as they fight in IS matches if they are destroyed/ damaged let the player that destroyed/damage them have the possibility of salaviging parts/wepons or the mech after the match. that way clan tech can be kept or sold on to some one else and would make the tech hard to get. Also it would make getting clan mechs/wepons/gear/tech more cannon to start with and as the game time line progressis other wepons/mechs/gear/tech would become more avibale to every one just at high pices/limited numbers

[Melcyna]

Sam Slade, on 14 September 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

I know if I was on the dev team I'd be thinking Mad Cat/Timberwolf...$50... I'll buy one, so will you.

Just do it Devs, the money will be amazing.

If money is the only way to get them in such plan, then you just killed the game.

the moment money enters the equation with regard to balance and choices that have vital effect on the core gameplay, your game is effectively over as far as F2P survivability in western gaming goes.

Edited by Melcyna, 16 September 2012 - 09:47 PM.