126 replies to this topic

[rafgod]

Running around with a bunch of flamers on a mech...how terribly boring.

One flamer wouldn't keep a mech in shut down. It might prolong the shut down a few seconds, I suppose. Which could be key if the rest of the lance is coming to finish off the Atlas. Otherwise, the scout flames the Atlas and then tries to get the hell out of there with the few extra seconds it bought.

[Belisarius1]

Absolutely not, but it's fairly easily solved.

EDIT: and the question definitely shouldn't be a matter of "allowed." It should be balanced into the game, or not. Rules are for when the game designers mess up, which I hope won't happen here.

So long as 'Mechs dissipate heat much faster when shut down, it should be possible to find a balance where firebugs can push a hot 'Mech into shutdown but not keep them asleep forever.

A scout 'Mech with a single flamer? Hell no, the atlas should be able to ignore that no matter what situation it occurs in. A dedicated, flamer-laden heavy that's specifically configured for the role and useful for nothing else? Sure, the atlas should be wary now, just as he should be of every situational threat.

Edited by Belisarius†, 11 March 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[mekabuser]

it depends what the ratio between one flamer and one heat sink is. If atlas has say 8 hs and thats equivalent to 2 flamers, id imagine the atlas outlasts the scout within a few seconds because the scout itself is generating heat using the flamer no?. If the atlas is non energy heavy, it should be able to defend itself pretty well.
AN atlas heavy energy dependant might have a bit of a problem returning fire, but should power up easier even<figure energy mech have more hs?>, and can tactical retreat right away too.Got enough armor for that id imagine.
That being said, flamers are to be feared.
Its something else mwll has down pretty damn good imo.
They are very situational, but can be potent as hell in the right situation.
suffering severe mwll withdrawal. BSOD and have to rename system\driver file. Need to stop playing for a while so fate is actually doing me a favor, but I miss the awesome. so much..

[Dihm]

I voted all the yes.

I want to watch the world burn.

[Dayuhan]

There are not just flamers, there are also Inferno rounds that can be mounted in missile launchers. Most 'mechs at shutdown have enough heat-sinks to cooldown even if they are flamed while shutdown, but shutting down your 'mech in battle is a bad idea in the first place - Watch Your Heat!. Prolonging the shutdown by slowing the cooldown process is a perfectly acceptable tactic if the 'mechs "friends" are going to just sit there and let it happen (remember a flamer is a very short range weapon, the flaming 'mech would have to pretty much stand right next to the Atlas in the example given.) Inferno missiles have a longer range but it will be a very crispy 'mech if it takes an ammo hit.

[Wilburninator]

I've seen something like this once before in MW4. It did not work very well. There was a group of three light mechs all with flamers and one heavy. The lights would rush and try to cause a shutdown and then the heavy would clean up (theoretically). The lights usually ended up getting shredded before they could cause a shutdown. If one mech could do it I would call BS but if it took a group I would say that it is legitimate since it would require a team effort and they would probably only be able to use it on one enemy at a time. I doubt one light mech with a flamer would be able to create more heat than a heavy could dissipate while shut down; the light mech might be able to cause a shutdown but not keep it.

[Thomas Covenant]

Yeah if the atlas is caught alone with no assistance I would say it should be possible to do this. Getting into this situation should be nearly impossible for a light mech to initiate alone though.

Edit Using the flamer generates so much heat itself.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 12 March 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Wilburninator, on 12 March 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

I've seen something like this once before in MW4. It did not work very well. There was a group of three light mechs all with flamers and one heavy. The lights would rush and try to cause a shutdown and then the heavy would clean up (theoretically). The lights usually ended up getting shredded before they could cause a shutdown. If one mech could do it I would call BS but if it took a group I would say that it is legitimate since it would require a team effort and they would probably only be able to use it on one enemy at a time. I doubt one light mech with a flamer would be able to create more heat than a heavy could dissipate while shut down; the light mech might be able to cause a shutdown but not keep it.

I was trying to specifically refer to the situation when a shutdown has already initiated, and an attempt is made to keet the shutdown perpetual by a sneaky scout with a Flame-oriented loadout. It seems like many people so far want this to work, but also many say that a single Mech shouldn't be able to maintain a shutdown of a hostile Assault Mech. It was mentioned that it would depend on the enemy Mech in question - I chose an Atlas because we know it'll be in-game and is well-known. But I think the AS7-D might have something like 20 single heatsinks...

Maybe a scout couldn't carry enough equipment to maintain a shutdown in something like a stock Atlas. I imagine maybe a heavy or Assault Mech might be able to, or a couple mediums or several lights, but any Mech designed to step-in and ruch a shutdown Mech before it wakes up will probably have to be fast.

I don't know the exact rules for heatsinks and flamers - could someone please explain how many Flamers it would take to deliver more heat per second than a shutdown AS7-D with 20 external and 12 Internal sinks could dissipate?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 12 March 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

If you really took enough flamers for this to work, I don't see why not. It would make your mech terribly ineffective under normal circumstances.

[Dlardrageth]

Prosperity Park, on 12 March 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

[...]Maybe a scout couldn't carry enough equipment to maintain a shutdown in something like a stock Atlas. I imagine maybe a heavy or Assault Mech might be able to, or a couple mediums or several lights, but any Mech designed to step-in and ruch a shutdown Mech before it wakes up will probably have to be fast.

I don't know the exact rules for heatsinks and flamers - could someone please explain how many Flamers it would take to deliver more heat per second than a shutdown AS7-D with 20 external and 12 Internal sinks could dissipate?

For starters, don't try so hard to make it work on paper with such an unfavourable setup. As a first step, how about you swap that AS-7D you are trying to keep in check with flamer(s) out for an AS-7K? That is a canon variant as well (3050 introduced, thus still somewhat befitting MWO's starting era), but to some degree more prone to overheating. That might make the odds more realistic in order to use flamers effectively against this variety of assault Mech.

[Solis Obscuri]

Perpetual shut-down would be a pretty grief-y mechanic. I think forcing a shutdown, as well as prolonging one somewhat should be viable, but the ability to keep anyone in a perpetual shut-down has way too much potential for abuse to be a valid mechanic.

But seriously, how many flamers would that take??? I really doubt this is viable with IS succession wars tech, unless you want to waste a ridiculous amount of flamers and heat sinks out on a heavy.

[Cody Machado]

Its a tactic. If the light mech didn't have that it might not win. And it makes you watch your heat more closer.

[Halfinax]

Reno Blade, on 11 March 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

I never understood how heatsinks would work without the power of the reactor. they are not simple copper lamellas like passive grafic card coolers. I would expect them to work slower without power (like the fridge doesnt work without the cable, or the CPU fan is not working without the power).
This would mean, the flamer who isnt as dangerous while powered up, could be a real threat when you are shut down. (If the HS are slower while shut down)

Well radiators don't require electrical input to work. Just a flow of the coolant liquid. Hot liquid is passed through a series of tubes with aluminum fins that dissipate the heat, and then the cooler fluid flows into the resevoir forcing the warmer fluid into the radiator. Granted a pump makes this much more efficient, but it's not like a fan that requires a power sorce to cause it's motor to spin, or a refrigerator that requires power to drive the compressor.

Edited by Halfinax, 12 March 2012 - 10:59 PM.

[Dom Cobb]

I think it would be hi-larious if we could do that with a scout, but as mentioned above, it may not be all that effective in terms of the combat situation and heat management. I also fail to see how that would fit into the gameplay in a balanced fashion, as we could just have a buttload of scouts hunting down and overheating the entire opposing force, and calling in one heavy hitter to finish the job. I think this tactic would be ineffective when used incorrectly, but too effective when used properly

[Ronin13]

it fair because you can always override the shut down plus it the mechwarrior fault for overheating

[AkwardArcher]

**************************************************************************************************************************

THIS CANT HAPPEN!

In tabletop, Flamers can do either heat or damage, and the level of heat generated would be 3.

The Atlas has 20 heat sinks in 3025. If the thing is in Shutdown, it has garnered 30+ heat over heat sinks (If it avoided a shutdown before hand around 15+).

Therefore, you could, in theory, make the Atlas be shutdown for a second or two longer than what it was going to be.

Then you have a 100 tons of Atlas, right where it wants you (hopefully being able to kick you)
**************************************************************************************************************************

Edited by Rance Praton, 12 March 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Seabear]

If one's force is properly consituted and functioning as a team, such a situation should be most rare. While said light is toasting the Atlas, one of his lancemates should make a 20 ton pile of junk metal out of the offender. Such a situation should only happen when the Atlas has lost all his team mates. Even 2 mechs still remaining should halt this if the 2 use the "Thatch Weave" from WWII air combat.

[Dlardrageth]

Rance, in TT the aforementioned Atlas could stand/sit in a heavy woods which the first flamer shot sets on fire adding extra heating up. And if you play with planetary condition modifiers he could even be in a place that actually more than halves its heat efficiency. So it's not quite likely with only one Mech shutting him down, but it is not totally impossible on paper.

[wwiiogre]

under new rules, the max amount of external heat a make can receive in a turn is now 15. That is it. No matter what conditions are set, the max you can receive is 15. Now on the other hand with an engine crit that is internal not external.

chris

[Zakatak]

Flamers are ammo-based weapons in this game. It wasn't included in the list of "ammoless weapons" during the last Devblog. So no, it can't.

Good decision by the team to make the Flamer fuel-based. If it truly was plasma from the fusion reactor, it would burn at 3 million degrees Celsius, making it one of the best weapons in the game.