334 replies to this topic

[Red Beard]

T0RC4ED, on 19 March 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

My thoughts on FF... My biggest Issue is people who have no situational awareness and walk into my line of fire. They must be thinking something like this "Hmm I see a stream of ballistic and energy weapons comming from over here I wander what happens if i put my head down and charge into the guy thats taking fire". It never fails they always get mad because they are dumb. FF by IDF... If someone calls for fire on a location its probably a good idea to not be standing in the impact area...USE THE COMS thats what they are there for.

More often than not, IMO, FF will take place because the battle becomes too frantic and guys get really jumpy. Even the best pilots will nail their team-mates on occasion. The point being, it is not a thing worth creating a system over in order to punish anyone. Perhaps a very miniscule reputation system that includes nothing more than a simple readout of things like FF hits can be done, but I really feel that that is going too far.

[Seabear]

I wonder what perserve gene causes some people to ruin the fun of others with no real gain for themselves. I agree that we need some system to limit the effects of such a person or remove the offending the individual from the ranks of players. I have no idea what that might be as I'm new to online gamimg (But I have seen such behavior many places in the RW).

One factor that I think needs to be included because it exists in RL combat is friendly fire. The shooter is not the only one that bears resposibility in many instances. Every player needs to be aware of the combat situation around him/her self. Once one looses a flight of LRMs at a target down range, It is not the shooters's fault if an oblivous teammate steps into the line of fire. This is very different from a team killer. Teamwork and co-odination will help limit these but they will happen.

Whatever system is put in place needs to deal fairly with these situations as well as punishing a truly "bad actor". Glad I don't have to figure it out.

[Red Beard]

Red1769, on 19 March 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Surely we don't need to get a moderator in here again to stop that kind of thing.

Red1769, on 19 March 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

Oh, and I don't give myself any credit for that.

Sure seems like it.

[mockingfox]

Red Beard, on 19 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

More often than not, IMO, FF will take place because the battle becomes too frantic and guys get really jumpy. Even the best pilots will nail their team-mates on occasion. The point being, it is not a thing worth creating a system over in order to punish anyone. Perhaps a very miniscule reputation system that includes nothing more than a simple readout of things like FF hits can be done, but I really feel that that is going too far.

this is where we differ, i dont believe that it can hurt to track this. and i cant imagine it being very difficult to accomplish considering we track damage delt all the time in online games. why not damage delt to friendlies on average and then simply remove the ouliers of the bell curve from your score. in truth this is simple math/stat tracking

[Energy Echo]

mockingfox, on 19 March 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

this is where we differ, i dont believe that it can hurt to track this. and i cant imagine it being very difficult to accomplish considering we track damage delt all the time in online games. why not damage delt to friendlies on average and then simply remove the ouliers of the bell curve from your score. in truth this is simple math/stat tracking

I see your point.

Tell me what you think of this. Loyalty points are a system that is already in place. Why not simply have players lose LPs ANY time they hit a friendly, whether it was on purpose or not. No matter what, if you hit a friendly, you lose LPs. Even the best players will be subjected to this, and, the players that care about forming up and playing well will learn to check their fire, while the players that ignore this and fire with no regard will bleed LPs and therefore limit themselves in the game. How will this help? Why should grievers care about LPs? How will anyone know if a pilot's lack of LPs has to do with FF hits or not? I say, if anything gets tracked, pilot by pilot, it should be your LPs. How you earned each one, and how you lost LPs. If you can check a pilots LP record, you can see what they have been doing to earn and lose them. If a guy has been running around for a week playing like a ****, his LP record will show EVERYONE his misdeeds. Also, if a player begins to get more skilled and starts checking fire with more patience, their LP will begin to reflect that, thereby "healing" their reputation.

[Red Beard]

Loyalty points are for something a bit different, as I understood it.

[Red1769]

Quote

More often than not, IMO, FF will take place because the battle becomes too frantic and guys get really jumpy. Even the best pilots will nail their team-mates on occasion. The point being, it is not a thing worth creating a system over in order to punish anyone. Perhaps a very miniscule reputation system that includes nothing more than a simple readout of things like FF hits can be done, but I really feel that that is going too far.

Then we agree to disagree. There is support for some sort of individual stats recorded that states how often they've FFed or TKed and whatnot. A battle doesn't necessarily needs to become frantic for FF to happen, though it is probably the most common time it'll UNINTENTIONALLY happen. The main issue are those that intentionally TK and FF.

Quote

i dont believe that it can hurt to track this. and i cant imagine it being very difficult to accomplish considering we track damage delt all the time in online games. why not damage delt to friendlies on average and then simply remove the ouliers of the bell curve from your score. in truth this is simple math/stat tracking

If the game already implements stats tracking, FF and TK are just two more things. Not that big of a deal. It's not overregulating like you're fearing. But alas, you're entitled to your opinion, and I doubt anything said or going to be said here will change your mind. I don't want to have to ruin my own rep. to TK that A-hole that TKed me, they should be punished somehow. Again though, we don't know how big of a problem it will be until after launch.

LPs don't exactly say much. You get certain bonuses from that faction depending on LPs, and those bonuses are not taken away if those LPs are lowered from anything, including being absent. They're completely different from what I understand.

[Red Beard]

I agree with Helmer and Dlardrageth...I think. A blacklist option would be as simple a system as you would need. At worst, some nimrod ruins one game for you. I have had more than a few games ruined by bad players, but it's my own fault if I keep on playing in the same lobby or room with them.

[Red Beard]

Red1769, on 19 March 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

The main issue are those that intentionally TK and FF.

If that is the case, and this is all about INTENTIONAL FF and INTENTIONAL TKing, then I would have to say that, again, this whole argument is a real waste of forum goer's time. I think many of you are worrying about something that I cannot see happening enough to have a system put in place to punish anyone. Intentional misdeeds will be even more uncommon. Hardly worth the devs time to come up with a system that addresses this, just to placate a few folks that are scared of their game being ruined by 13 year old loud mouths and punks who turn on their teams. It just isn't gonna be a big thing, especially not in a game like this, that is going to attract a more mature audience, on the whole.

[Red1769]

Then you are free to exit this thread in search of another. Since it is a "waste of a forum goer's time". Let us waste our time without you wasting yours. Online games, especially FtP games, are at a risk for it. You don't know that it won't be a problem just as we don't know that it will. You don't know that this is gonna attract a more mature audience on the whole. When it launches, it just might be mostly the more mature audience. But that could change in a heartbeat, and I'm sure the devs would love to have it extend to the younger crowd. If nothing else, then it won't affect you or anyone else on a whole, just a failsafe against such people. Fact of the matter is, it will happen. How often and how many people no one can really know.

The system that was introduced by the OP probably could be simplified, though I think it's safe to say the majority want something to at least know who is doing it just by looking at their stats/pilot dossier and not have to experience it personally to find out. Or something of that nature.

[Hawkeye 72]

I am starting to come around to the idea of a smaller, less controlling system, and rather just a simple rating system that alerts fellow players of repeated foul play. Consensus seems to be that friendly fire is a good thing, and given the assumed amount of team work going to be needed for this game, I feel the odds of some dirtbag in a medium scout mech deciding to be a **** and start legging my assault lance will only end poorly for him.

My intention of this thread wasn't to assume that a majority of players will divert to a**hole tactics and how to law down the law, but rather understanding that rotten apples happen, and what precautions could be taken to prevent such foul play from spreading. It will happen, but deterrents must be in place to discourage. Barring a full mutiny (interesting idea!), I am starting to doubt that a random player will drop in and take on 11 other coordinated lancemates IF it will cost him in some form, especially seeing the response on this thread so far.

People just want to know their hard work and investment won't be spoiled.

Too many years of Halo have made me cynical to online games

[mockingfox]

I know this wont mean anything to you Red Beard but me and my older brother got into mechwarrior when we where 8, and my little brother age 11 has been eyeing this game with me.

FACT: kids love giant robots
FACT: mechwarrior is a game about giant robots
so i feel safe to assume that a younger crowd isnt out of the question, esspecially since its FTP.

as far as weather or not FF/TKing will be a problem or not i personally would love to believe that this wont happen.
unfortunatly years of halo 2/3/reach along with DOTA/SOTIS/LOL combined with a whole other mess of online gamespace's have lead me to believe that where there is fun, griefers will come. It will happen, simple as that.

all I ask is that when it does there be systems inplace to deal with it or a level higher than "go away/banning"
as these just dont work.

Edited by mockingfox, 19 March 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Dumat]

All I have to say is that TKers should have to pay the repair bill for the person they offed.

[Psydotek]

Just for emphasis...

We want to punish the griefers/trolls. We do not want to punish the new players or players with less skill.

If the MWO community ever develops an overwhelming elitist community unreceptive to new or lesser skilled players, i'm out.

I only mention this because griefers aren't the only ones to worry about abusing reporting/punishment systems, but elitist players can and will abuse it too.

Edited by Psydotek, 19 March 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Jake Valeck]

the dev's are all over making sure the game is fun for everyone as much as possible and im sure they will have tools for reporting players that are spoiling others fun. with social games come all kinds of people. its just a game in the end - have fun and enjoy It's free!

[Orzorn]

Jake Valeck, on 19 March 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

the dev's are all over making sure the game is fun for everyone as much as possible and im sure they will have tools for reporting players that are spoiling others fun. with social games come all kinds of people. its just a game in the end - have fun and enjoy It's free!

This.

Even hardcore competetive games like Dota 2 and League of Legends have literally NO in-game way to stop griefers. However, they have an excellent reporting system and folks who are rather on the ball with dealing with these reports. League of Legends began reporting their bans, and after the first huge batch they gave a number of several tens of thousands of bans given out.

It doesn't stop your game from getting thrown, unfortunately, but it does prevent that person from continually doing it.

Of course, a reporting system doesn't have to exist in a vacuum. You could always have a kick function that takes a majority of people, or a kick function like Halo has. However, these systems will ALWAYS have either a drawback (I accidentally shot someone and they immedietely raged and kicked me, as in Halo) or an exploit (Everyone is together, but missing one or two people. They all band together and boot the two pub players so they won't have to deal with them). But that's something to hammer out in Beta. I do believe we will need some form of these systems, because this is a free to play game, meaning trolls can readily join up just to ruin some people's days for a few hours and then get banned, but it doesn't cost them any money. You don't see trolls (at least, not on the level that you might in free to play games) necessarily as frequently on games that cost money, because getting banned means you lost your money (and in the case of Steam, you can sometimes get banned entirely from Steam, losing every single one of your games, but that is for the most extreme cases).

[Hexion]

It seems everything nowdays has to be so complicated. Complicated repayment formulas, kick buttons, rep status, etc. The community doesnt want to get their hands dirty? What happened to saying TKer and blasting the SOB? Because if he kills one he will maybe go for more. If all these burdensome remedies are in place who in their right mind is going to come to the aid of a teammate going through the shredder? I wont. I will pay repairs to put the **** out of his misery if im paying his repairs and not some over priced formula or take neg rep.legistated here. Reporting is fine as is blacklisting, even paying the true repairs of the downed mech.

Lets face it. many of these ideas arent just going to hurt the TKer it will be hurting players that don't like this sort of behavior and are willing to do something about it.

And btw not all pub players are the dirtbags and lamebrains they are being made out to be here. (Ive seen the same sort of activity from feuding guilds clans houses whatever you want to call them in the past its not just the pubs and lone wolves as they are called here)

This IS my opinion only.

I dont care one way or the other how this works out but over enforcement will give the game a negative side to new players. I think TKers arent in the numbers that they cant be reined in by the community. If they are i hope we get a lot of slots for our black list. I've heard lots about kick buttons in the past it can be abused just as easily as the fire button.

All I've stated is with the most respect. No offense is intended to anyone.

Edited by Hexion, 19 March 2012 - 07:50 PM.

[Kurohyou]

Why sweat this issue. Team killers will become marked individuals. No one will drop with an individual that is capable of shoot their team mates in the back.

[Kenyon Burguess]

report system, no FF, and the ability to put someone on the ignore list would be a good start imo

[Hexion]

Why would you need a report system if there is no friendly fire? Then the TKer is doomed to only work with the team.