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Stopping team-killers and other miscreants?



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#301 Outrider01

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 03:34 PM

Here is a pro-tip for the newbs that don't want a TK

Turn off the "EDITED"ability to shoot friendlies at all. Number 1 way to make sure everyone acts civil.

Problem solved.

You still want it?

The next pro-tip:

Fire round, nothing happens to your team mate. You lose ammo, have a recharge / reload cycle / gain nothing from the shot. In effect, you fired to zero effect and got nothing out of it but a heat build up and ammo bill if its not energy based.

WoT was a terrible f***ing game. Aside from the tier spread (no, I don't want to blow some guy's **** who drives a tier 9 while I am in a tier 5, all day, every day! because Mr. Tier 9 has a fetish for stats when a sub-3-4 tier tank is just junk to him and an easy kill), friendly fire was stupid because 1) It was a good way to kill of a team mate 2) it wasted your time, because you got no reward for the shot before they fixed it to punish you and pay for the other guys repairs. Really, just allow the shot to hit and POOF! as it richochets off: nothing happens to him nothing happens to you, but you pay for the shell and wait for reload which puts you at the disadvantage.

Terrible f***ing game and the only thing they got right was tanks (no contest, KV can't out run, can't bounce them, can't absorb the shot, can't put the hurt on them enough: can't do anything to a tier 9 tank), I hope mechwarrior at least allows you the choice to avoid everyone else who wants to drive the assault mechs with the best stats (armor and hitpoints) all damn day (like if I want to drive a light mech, but don't want to scout....I do not want to face an atlas every match...just a bunch of light mechs duking with similar stats it out like a tier 2 match in WoT)

SEE BELOW:

Edited by Metro, 22 March 2012 - 02:14 AM.
CoC violation with the language filter. Warning issued. =) Please refrain this type of word choice in the future.


#302 metro

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:17 AM

View PostRed Beard, on 21 March 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:


Metro, as you serious? We have been more than respectful, especially these last 4 or 5 pages. Could you re-read some of it please. Now I am confused :wacko:


Its like listening to inlaws at christmas dinner, being "fakey" nice, because "granny" the matriarch is at the table and she holds the key to their inheritance.

:D

Im with ya though, just keeping tabs.

so carry on, and have fun.

#303 Egomane

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:06 AM

Friendly fire needs to be in. I as a sneaky capellan will otherwise abuse it if FF is not damaging to my mech.

I will create a davion account. As soon as a battle starts I will secretly tell the incoming team that I'm a friendly shield mech. Run towards them and turn right before them and give them a mobile and indestructable cover, that can move out of the way when they want to shoot and slide back in if they recicle their weapons. At the end of the match I will be killed by the friendly. As soon as my account finds no other team to "play with"/"sabotage" I'll create a new one and start over.

Well, to tell the truth, I wouldn't do that. But I predict others will. And I don't like it one bit if this will be possible. Because I can't deal with such a person if he is in my team until the match is over. With a team killer I can live and deal with immediatly. If he doesn't make his first shot count, he is dead meat.

If you read the boards, you could come to believe that there will be one TK in every second game you play (just how many threads do we have about that?). But in reality there are a lot less of those around, so the problem that is discussed so lively is, from my point of view, a small one. And if you run into the fire of a friendly by accident? That's just bad communication and/or timing. It can't always be prevent and shouldn't be.

We could make it just like the tabletop, where a friendly is never a hindrance for you. Just let the weapons fire pass through team mates and only do damage to enemies and terrain-objects. Then there is no way to abuse it one way or the other. The only thing that can happen is a blocked visual.

#304 Strum Wealh

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:29 AM

On the subject of other type of miscreants:
I think there should be no "manual" (that is, player-toggled) ejection or self-destruct function.

The reasoning for this:
As stated in Dev Blog 1:

Quote

Faction Worlds
The battle for control over faction planets is a simple war of attrition. The faction with the most influence over a particular planet occupies it. By virtue of simply competing in online matches, faction players contribute influence points to target planets.

Border Worlds
Mercenary Corporations can bid and fight for occupation rights of border worlds throughout the Inner Sphere. Merc Corps must bid on a planet’s occupation rights via a system of contracts generated by the game.
A match or series of matches are set up between the defending Merc Corp and the challenger. The victor is determined from the results of each match, and takes control of the planet. They are rewarded with an immediate contract payout, and will continue to earn rewards while they occupy the planet.


Quote

Faction Players
As a Faction Player, loyalty points are earned by playing and winning matches. As the player accumulates loyalty points, they will gain a military faction rank at pre-determined loyalty point totals. If a player loses LPs by decay or negative actions, they will be demoted.
Gaining ranks earns special privileges and items, including membership to special units, unit skins, and bonuses to C-Bills and XP. These are all non-permanent and subject to the player maintaining a certain rank level. At the highest possible levels, players can begin to influence their faction by controlling which planets are targeted in territory conquest.

Mercenary Corp Players
As a Mercenary Corporation, all members’ earned loyalty points go to the Merc Corp. The Merc Corp must have a minimum amount of loyalty points with a faction before they are able to engage in planetary combat on behalf of that faction. Loyalty points also determine the type and level of contract a Merc Corp is permitted to bid on. These loyalty point restrictions mean that a Merc Corp’s membership, must remain active in order to maintain the required level of LPs.
Ranks are created within a Merc Corp by the Merc Corp leader. The naming of the ranks is entirely up to the Merc Corp leader who can assign Merc Corp level permissions to each rank.

Lone Wolf Players
As a lone wolf, the player can earn loyalty points through participation in random matches, however these LPs have no positive or negative implications. A lone wolf player does not have any ranks.


And from Dev Q&A 2:

Quote

Will planetary control come down to one/a few games, or will taking over a planet require much more time...like 20 games? –Cyttorak

[MATT C] At launch planetary control will consist of single matches though over time we intend to add support for sequenced matches.


The issue with the combination of a manual ejection/self-destruct system and how acquisition and holding of territory and LPs seem intended to be done is that, like the Xbox 360 game Chromehounds (a mech combat game which used a similar system for determining which factions holds what territory), it provides an incentive for the rise of so-called "boosters".

These "boosters" were players (or groups of players) who would control two or more sets of mechs (in the case of CH, this would necessitate multiple consoles and game discs, so apparently money was not an issue for them :wacko:) arranged into teams, and would arrange to have two of the teams they control face one another in matches.
Then, they would self-destruct the mechs of one of the teams, thus allowing the other team to "win" the match.
And then set up another match and do it again... and again... and again...

They would build up capture points and reward points so quickly that normally-played matches had minimal-to-negligable effects with regard to taking or holding territory in the in-game world.
Additionally, this lead to many of the top spots of the leader-boards and the highest-ranking awards were near-exclusively held by these boosters.

By having no player-controllable self-destruct/ejection mechanic in MWO, this would remove the most efficient form of such boosting.
Granted, there's little that could be done to stop them from manually running the sets of 'Mechs toward each other and destroying one set "the old-fashioned way" or from manually disconnecting the computers running the 'Mechs they wish to see lose, but having no player-controllable self-destruct/ejection mechanic would (hopefully) discourage the less-dedicated (and/or less clever) would-be boosters and make the process more difficult and time-consuming for the rest.

On a side note, this also removes the primary tool of a second breed of miscreant, the "kill-denier" - players who, when losing, will self-destruct/eject (or disconnect) before one can land the finishing blow, thus denying another player an otherwise-earned kill.

Though, this isn't without issue - a player who is immobilized would be stuck until the end of the match or until "put out of their misery" by another player (opponent or ally) or disconnected, and undoubtedly some will be upset at the notion of not being able to use ejection to be able to change 'Mechs in DropShip mode and similar game types.

So, there is one suggestion from me.
Your thoughts?

Also, have the Devs made any statements on hoe disconnections/dropped connections will be handled? If not, what ideas do we have for the Devs with regard to ensuring that "simply disconnecting" doesn't become a viable or preferred tactic/mechanic? :D

#305 Red Beard

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:26 AM

Strum, I had not even thought of that angle in terms of boosting. It is incredible what people will come up with the cheat their way to victory. I pray for a LONG and DRAWN OUT beta, that way PGI can iron out as much of these issues as possible prior to the full launch.

#306 Red Beard

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:29 AM

View PostMetro, on 22 March 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Its like listening to inlaws at christmas dinner, being "fakey" nice, because "granny" the matriarch is at the table and she holds the key to their inheritance.



Those are the moments when you excuse yourself to the garage for an "egg nog and brandy" break...ahh yes...Granny ain't so tough to deal with after the third trip to the garage. And the neighbor's wife just got a little cuter too...

#307 John Wolf

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:40 AM

View PostRed Beard, on 21 March 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:



You are as good natured a guy here as I have seen. I will try.

I would, in the effort of keeping things simple, implement a small area within each pilot's "publicly viewable" profile, where others can leave their contributions to that pilots reputation. You can add to it in a positive way, or use it to warn other players of said pilots deeds. If the pilot has negative feedback, AND it is right there for all to view, he might have real trouble getting a game until he changes his ways.

I used to play Black Ops zombies alot, and before I started any game, I would check to see how many levels the players that joined my room had achieved. Not the exact same thing, but some kind of simple way of letting others know what you have been doing, good or bad.


Red, I haven't played a lot of Black Ops, the dolphin running really got to me. Prefer a more sim style to arcade style game so I don't have any experience with that. So you want the self regulation kind of deal, where the community comments on the player and his actions in game. Would it be comments? Or a Good / Bad rating like they use on xbox? (I THINK they do something like that on xbox, I could be wrong)

That idea could work, but does that mean you leave a game with a poorly rated player in it or do you have the option to vote them out? Mass Effect only removes a player from a multiplayer game if everyone else in the room agrees to it.

View PostMetro, on 21 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

ok, Red, red,and John....

your picking at each other is like Posted Image


So I must ask you all to refrain, carry on with the topic

or I will shut it down, and give you all a day or 2 away from MW:O posting privys.

I promise!



Metro,

I admit, trying to get him to provide some input was like a dead horse, and I apologize for that. :D (I was determined to have him contribute! ;)) On the other side of that... I assure you its not a fake nice. I understand your point of view though, since you don't know either of us personally and are judging what you can from our posts. :wacko: All is well though, seriously. And I appreciate you voicing that before taking action.

#308 Trevnor

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:46 AM

Hrm, Strum made some very good points, to be sure. I do have another idea, at least for the TK and other forms of stuff. A target interrupt when the reticule floats over a friendly, so your targeting data registers a friendly. When the friendly moves outta the way, the interrupt disappears, and you have full tone almost immediately, if you were building to it before the interrupt. Now, a user would also be able to hit a override for the target interrupt, and lock onto a friendly, but doing this would warn the friendly being targeted, and by whom. This would quickly flesh out the TKer's, because as soon as that override is hit, then (Unless the player that hit the override did it by mistake, and lets everyone know) they would be free game to attack.

A way to prevent someone from dropping out of a game just because they are about to be killed, would be to include something like in Halo: Reach, where they lose any points/money they've earned in that match, and also, if they do it more than 3 times in a row, they cannot rejoin any match for an hour, and escalate that up the more times they do it. AS for the pilot self-eject feature.... I think it should be allowed, but only when the mech is just about to go critical. Because if the mech goes critical, then the kill is still registered for the user that shot them.

That's a few more C-bills from me :D

#309 John Wolf

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:51 AM

An IFF system like that might make sense.. you could even track the times someone hits the override for review later if they have staff monitoring that like a report system. That would root out the users abusing it, without needing other players to submit tickets or reports on the player which would include any potential bias.

Neat and clean. Nice idea Trevnor.

#310 T0RC4ED

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:55 AM

View PostBawb, on 21 March 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

how about just not making weapons converge on your own team ever... making your own team hard to hit anyway... not impossible... but without convergence weapons wouldnt exactly target thier own team... making aiming at team members isnanely difficult...


I dont know about this, having a friendly crossing in front of me would probably mess up my already dialed in aim (chances are im trying to obliterate the meat and save the metal) and that would in trun make me go into Chernobyl style nerd rage =)

Edited by T0RC4ED, 22 March 2012 - 06:56 AM.


#311 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 06:59 AM

View PostEgomane, on 22 March 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:


We could make it just like the tabletop, where a friendly is never a hindrance for you. Just let the weapons fire pass through team mates and only do damage to enemies and terrain-objects. Then there is no way to abuse it one way or the other. The only thing that can happen is a blocked visual.


And when you use your friendly mech as a shield while firing through them at an enemy who can't shoot back. Or the spotting light running around TAGing the enemy while remaining unhurt by the arty strike called in on them? I'm sure others can provide other examples. Unfortunately I don't have any easy fixes. I liked the idea from above that you could still fire but nothing happened to your friendly mech, while you had to wait for a recharge, but then you could have people acting as shields as Egomane said.
I think that this is another one that will only get worked out when we have a Beta and see what the dev's have in place. Hopefully people will report exploits as soon as they find them.

Edited by Nik Van Rhijn, 22 March 2012 - 07:07 AM.


#312 John Wolf

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:05 AM

View PostNik Van Rhijn, on 22 March 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

[color=#959595]We could make it just like the tabletop, where a friendly is never a hindrance for you. Just let the weapons fire pass through team mates and only do damage to enemies and terrain-objects. Then there is no way to abuse it one way or the other. The only thing that can happen is a blocked visual.[/color]


But the hostile on the other side couldn't hit the target in back.. and you'd have an effective 'meatshield' sure, only works for a little while.. but could still be abused.

Edited by John Wolf, 22 March 2012 - 07:05 AM.


#313 metro

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:28 AM

It must be my optimism.

But I am willing to bet the DEVS, have this matter well in control, and there will be control sets in place to deal with anyone who abuse the client with regards to TK,FF,Disconnects etc.

As operational as this game looks to me, I wouldnt be surprised if records can be pulled and the abuser, pulled in front of a possible tribunal of devs/moderators and out right dealt with.

I would like to see an MW:O version of their own punkbuster. So all who connect can have their activity logged :D

but thats just me....

#314 Hawkeye 72

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:54 AM

Strum Wealh hit it right on the nose. My biggest concern is people who pull crap like that. Chromehounds had amazing potential but the devs ditched any support for the game and it crumbled under all the cheating. It was sad to see and within the year a game that should have been a hit was dead.

I reinstalled MW4 last night and hopped on some multiplayer. It was great and not once did the fear of teamkilling cross my mind. And it shouldn't have since almost everyone who plays the game respects it. Now that isn't to say a few people didn't take advantage of balance issues though, and I hope MWO doesn't have such issues. But when issues arise the devs need to make sure they commit to fixing it/get it right before launch that way when this game hits the masses, we don't see complex boosting plots. And trust me, there are people who reside in the dark corners of the internet whose only goal is to hatch plots to destroy games. You see them as the people who post 'first' on every internet story, or TK when you pick up the weapon they wanted.

#315 John Wolf

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:19 AM

View PostMetro, on 22 March 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

It must be my optimism.

But I am willing to bet the DEVS, have this matter well in control, and there will be control sets in place to deal with anyone who abuse the client with regards to TK,FF,Disconnects etc.

As operational as this game looks to me, I wouldnt be surprised if records can be pulled and the abuser, pulled in front of a possible tribunal of devs/moderators and out right dealt with.

I would like to see an MW:O version of their own punkbuster. So all who connect can have their activity logged :wacko:

but thats just me....


Indeed Metro! Punkbuster is more for code related abuse though isn't it? Not game dynamic abuses. But the logging will allow for 'moderator' review, and any necessary actions to be taken. There is no magical solution to stopping this in game.. we look for a level of realism and in reality people are going to act the way they want to. :D

We all hope the devs already have this under control.. but until we get information, our brains are left to wander and let our fingers debate the topics!

#316 Dlardrageth

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:44 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 22 March 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

[...]
On a side note, this also removes the primary tool of a second breed of miscreant, the "kill-denier" - players who, when losing, will self-destruct/eject (or disconnect) before one can land the finishing blow, thus denying another player an otherwise-earned kill.

Though, this isn't without issue - a player who is immobilized would be stuck until the end of the match or until "put out of their misery" by another player (opponent or ally) or disconnected, and undoubtedly some will be upset at the notion of not being able to use ejection to be able to change 'Mechs in DropShip mode and similar game types.[...]


Don't think this is much of an issue. Unless the reward structure in MWO would go "by kills" (which would be rather stupid IMHO), you still get the earned rewards for getting the enemy Mech there. And if he ejects you probably even get a better salvage drop. So all you "lose" is one less kill in your stats? Well, personally I think if that is so totally important that it would be considered game-breaking, someone complaining about that needs to get a life.

That it might look differently and be prone to be exploited particularily in "3 drop" mode, is a different matter. But then noone forces you to play in that game mode to start with... Still, ejection, even as an option to "surrender" and get out of a battle short of complete destruction of your Mech (should give a considerable redux in repair costs i.e.), was and is a part of BT canon. I'm not really keen on just dropping it because some people's self-esteem might rely more on fictional kills in a fictional game in a fictional world than anything else. If they want to be stat-who****, fine, I don't care, but not at the price of game features.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 22 March 2012 - 08:47 AM.


#317 Volthorne

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

On the topic of self-ejection from mechs:

Keep it, but only allow it to be used under certain cicumstances. Like only when you're in the critical range, and want a chance to take out the guy who put you there - vis a vis Chernobyl - before he can run his *** away. Downside is that brawlers will have a problem with this since eveyrone is going to be exploding in everyone else's faces, so maybe impose a futher restriction of a short window of opportunity to actually activate your built-in nuke-waiting-to-happen before your pilot auto-ejects (no one can die, so auto-ejection would have to be a must). If you miss this window, you eject from your mech and it automatically shuts itself down (possibly for bonus salvage for the enemy team, since it didn't get completely blown to smitheroons?).


As for FF:

I'm going to stick by my suggestion (posted a couple pages back) to use a reverse-aim-assist (so instead of the reticule drifting towards targets, it drifts away from friendlies under normal circumstances. Ex: no jamming, friendly is already in sight, etc.) because a pilot is instinctively going to try and avoid hitting his lancemates. Lock-out from firing would only be realistically possible with Advanced Targeting Computers and Advanced IFFs (neither of which are available until somewhere around the Jihad era, iirc). Complete lock-out is dumb, because then a lancemate can simply stand infront of you to troll (as mentioned earlier) and no FF is completely retarded ("I'm going to jam this massive rocketlauncher into the small of your back, but don't worry since the rocket won't hurt you", also mentioned earlier), so really the only option is FF, provided it has some preventative measures.


"Hard" greifing (AKA modding/hacking):

Punkbuster this game up, it's the best anti-cheat/hack/mod system I've seen ever. This is comming from a guy who used to play F2Ps almost exclusively because I was poor. My first encounter with PB was in BF:2142 and I remember going "Holy ****, there's no cheaters/hackers/modders" (except for modded servers, ofc). If anyone gets caught for "hard" griefing, it should be an instant permaban - IP ban, no less - as this is an unforgivable breach of the ToS, and it completely ruins the game for everyone, not just the two or three affected by regular ("soft") greifing.

#318 John Wolf

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:23 PM

View PostVolthorne, on 22 March 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

On the topic of self-ejection from mechs:

Keep it, but only allow it to be used under certain cicumstances. Like only when you're in the critical range, and want a chance to take out the guy who put you there - vis a vis Chernobyl - before he can run his *** away. Downside is that brawlers will have a problem with this since eveyrone is going to be exploding in everyone else's faces, so maybe impose a futher restriction of a short window of opportunity to actually activate your built-in nuke-waiting-to-happen before your pilot auto-ejects (no one can die, so auto-ejection would have to be a must). If you miss this window, you eject from your mech and it automatically shuts itself down (possibly for bonus salvage for the enemy team, since it didn't get completely blown to smitheroons?).


Thankfully, as Metro I think reminded us.. self ejections are OUT. So not a problem there, we can remove that from the debate. :lol:

#319 Dlardrageth

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:37 PM

View PostVolthorne, on 22 March 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

[...]
If anyone gets caught for "hard" griefing, it should be an instant permaban - IP ban, no less - as this is an unforgivable breach of the ToS, and it completely ruins the game for everyone, not just the two or three affected by regular ("soft") greifing.


IP ban these days is next to useless. Way too blunt an instrument. First of all, going in through a proxy isn't exactly rocket science (even though it might be too complicated for some people). So there goes your IP ban.

Second, there are people with dynamic IPs thanks to their ISP. So what are you going to do, block the whole sub-node? And eventually catch 10+ innocent players along with the one culprit? Might even be asking for troube in some lawsuit-happy countries, that one.

Third, there are ways to "mask" your IP. Not going into details here *nods to the mods and forum rules*, but IP bans are so 90's... :lol:

View PostJohn Wolf, on 22 March 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:


Thankfully, as Metro I think reminded us.. self ejections are OUT. So not a problem there, we can remove that from the debate. :P


Physically, yes, but not necessarily as a mechanism to quit/throw a match. The whole "surrender early" matter has come up again and again from teh community, so I'm not sure the final word is spoken there.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 22 March 2012 - 01:39 PM.


#320 Grimm Gunn

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:37 PM

so where do we report team killers ?...





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