334 replies to this topic

[Red Beard]

palebear, on 17 March 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

How very Colbert-esque of you. That is just awesome.

Indeed. Thank you.

[The Cheese]

Red Beard, on 17 March 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

In the end, it comes down to the fact that it happens so seldom that to do anything about it would be a waste of resources.

Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree on that point. The results of an intentional TK will be painful for both grinders and payers, and I think that a way of at least tracking a player's 'damage vs enemy/damage vs friendly' ratio would be trivial for the devs to implement.

[Ragotag]

Red Beard, on 17 March 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Any time you lay down any kind of "penalties" for certain types of gameplay like that [TK-ing], it drives potential, cash paying players out the door.

That may be true, but it'll likely drive out many more cash paying players if there is no system in place to deal with grievers/TK'ers.

Edited by Ragotag, 17 March 2012 - 07:27 PM.

[wwiiogre]

In the drop ship mode it might work where you get a chance to hunt down the tk 'er, but in the meta game 12 v 12 you get only one death. And you have to pay to fix your mech and more than likely you won't get credit for the mission cause you died. Then you are out while your team plays the mission for the next 20 - 30 minutes. So I got tk'ed, it cost me money, I didn't make any money cause I was tk'ed and I have to now wait to get back into a mission cause some lone wolf came on our team and ruined our mission and contract. Yeah, that would be so much fun. I just would love for a game to cost me money, not allow me a chance to recoup it and make me wait for awhile for I could get a chance to re earn the money. Or, the game could penalize the tk'er and make him pay for my damage and then I still am out of the mission, our team may have lost the contract. Yet at least my mech is fixed for the damage the griefer or noob player caused. And like I said, if there was a button to hit, forgiving the team damage cause I was an ***** and walked into it. Then I would use that button when it happened. At least it would give those who are honest a way to work around team damage and it would make those who aren't honest and griefers have to pay up for there style of play. I am ok with that as long as it is known by everyone before they start playing. So nobody can proclaim I didn't know. Sorry, you checked the box before it would let you play on a friendly fire server.

chris

[Shai tan]

There will always be griefers. Honor is just a meaningless word if the principles are not upheld. In a Mech game, these griefer types stick out like a sore thumb pretty much. I know it sounds idealic possibly, but MWO might just be 1 of those games where if we lead by example, others will infact follow. It may take awhile, but imo this is the best way to deal with the situation.

Oth, accidents can and do happen. A quick oppology from the source is enough for me to forgive. Unless of course it is a frequently repeated action. And then there is the fact that a Mech game really doesn`t seem to be the right atmosphere for griefers. Not quakey enough. ;p And the player amount doesn`t really allow for hiding. A ban vote system for the obvious offender works as well. To be used in only the most obviously abusive situation.

Edited by shai`tan, 17 March 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[Hexion]

Reading some of the posts i get the idea 'lone wolves' arent welcome in this game comes out loud and clear. It seems the name of a type of player the devs mentioned in posts has turned out to be a very bad thing?

Others talk about how they dont want to play with ('new'-'bad') players. It seems like a lot of alienation before there is even a release date. I hope this isnt what the community is about.

[palebear]

I wouldn't let a couple voices be confused with the attitudes of the community, Hexion. As with almost all online communities, there tend to be vocal minorities which do not always represent the opinions of the silent majority.

[Darth JarJar]

I play several games with intentional TK'ers. In Mount and Blade, there are people who will run around and either kick or hit teammates with a low-damage weapon in order to make them mad and hit back, in other words, trying to draw a foul, then will wenge and moan and report you when they get their just deserts. M&B also has a mechanic that when you are hit or killed by a 'friendly' you can report them in-game. When a player has 5 reports against him, he is booted from the server by a period of time that is preset by the server owner. This is not a bad system, though, due to the nature of the game there are a lot of accidents, many of them caused by the one recieving the friendly fire. Note: If you walk in front of an archer that is shooting, don't be a weenie and report him for a team hit. This system can be abused.

Rise of Flight has no automatic teamkill governing mechanic. Intentional friendly fire incidents are usually a case of bad target identification, or shoulder-shooting (attacking a target with a friendly between you and that target). The community, in general, will just verbally 'correct' the offending pilot, though many squads have been known to kill the offending player in retaliation. The game has a built in voting system to allow the server population to kick or ban the pilot, if it seems to be his intention to just try and pi$$ in everyones cornflakes. I have never actually seen anyone banned in my 2 years in that game, though I have certainly seen my fair share of pilots 'corrected'. RoF is F2P after the initial purchase and the difficulty and skill required to play acts as a firewall against the more wanktardish type of online player (no CoD or FPS types here), and this game has the highest quality community of any I have ever played.

I like to think that the MWO community will fall towards the latter of my examples, rather than the former.

[Fabe]

wwiiogre, on 17 March 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

In the drop ship mode it might work where you get a chance to hunt down the tk 'er, but in the meta game 12 v 12 you get only one death. And you have to pay to fix your mech and more than likely you won't get credit for the mission cause you died. Then you are out while your team plays the mission for the next 20 - 30 minutes. So I got tk'ed, it cost me money, I didn't make any money cause I was tk'ed and I have to now wait to get back into a mission cause some lone wolf came on our team and ruined our mission and contract. Yeah, that would be so much fun. I just would love for a game to cost me money, not allow me a chance to recoup it and make me wait for awhile for I could get a chance to re earn the money. Or, the game could penalize the tk'er and make him pay for my damage and then I still am out of the mission, our team may have lost the contract. Yet at least my mech is fixed for the damage the griefer or noob player caused. And like I said, if there was a button to hit, forgiving the team damage cause I was an ***** and walked into it. Then I would use that button when it happened. At least it would give those who are honest a way to work around team damage and it would make those who aren't honest and griefers have to pay up for there style of play. I am ok with that as long as it is known by everyone before they start playing. So nobody can proclaim I didn't know. Sorry, you checked the box before it would let you play on a friendly fire server.

chris

Loss of pay is defently a reason to be conserned about PK'ers but I'm hoping that we'll get payed a base amount just for taking part in a battle with winners and surivors getting more.

[Red Beard]

Hexion, on 17 March 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

It seems like a lot of alienation before there is even a release date. I hope this isnt what the community is about.

Only with some folks. I advocate an open format of play that allows players to form their playstyle around what works for them. Some folks want gamers banned outright for accidents and some want there to be brown-coats watching us to make sure we are nice to each other.

[Dras Black]

Hexion, on 17 March 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Reading some of the posts i get the idea 'lone wolves' arent welcome in this game comes out loud and clear. It seems the name of a type of player the devs mentioned in posts has turned out to be a very bad thing?

Others talk about how they dont want to play with ('new'-'bad') players. It seems like a lot of alienation before there is even a release date. I hope this isnt what the community is about.

I really hope that you stick around and lurk around on some other threads, I don't mind new players and hope you find whatever works for you. I personally don't understand the "Lone Wolf" appeal, personally I like the merc seen cause thats how I am RL (I'll always work the sight with the highest pay no matter what) ether way welcome to the forums, and i hope this thread doesn't leave a bad taste in you're mouth.

[Tryg]

The concern isn't about accidental incidents, the concern is about intentional behavior with no purpose other then the irritation of other players. Very few games out there are in 'support' of this sort of behavior.

I'm all in favor of allowing people to play the game their way...provided they're playing the same game. When you're playing the 'lets see how mad I can make the other players' game, I'm all in favor of means by which to punish. Unfortunately, no perfect system exists which allows for both. So its more about finding what is the least intrusive to the community as a whole while not permitting the out and out griefing of the community.

Again, the people in question here, are people not interested in playing MWO, but rather, interested in making other folks angry by any means possible. If there was a perfect fix, I'd be all in favor of it. But since no such system exists, I'm in favor of any system that might discourage such behavior without being prone to excessive abuse. It'll be up to the Devs to discern just how large a problem this is and how best to handle it once the beta is out and they can take measure of just how much of an issue it is.

[wwiiogre]

I would hope so too Fabe, but we don't know for sure yet. But we do know that you will have to fix your damaged mech with cbills, which can only be earned in game. Meaning if you are tk'd you aren't earning cbills and you are going to have to pay to fix your damage mech. I will be trying to play with my merc team every oppurtunity we get. But in the end I will probably be playing in other games, cause not everyone is as old and broken as me and can play every day for a few hours. Kids all grown up, more money than sense. So I imagine I will be playing as many games as I can to get pilot xp and cbills. I would hate to keep running into what I see in BF3 and so many other games. Intentional team killers and griefers that have no other reason to be there. Are not asking for help, are not trying to help. In a game where I have to pay a penalty for someone else who has team killed or friendly fired on me. I think not. I want friendly fire on, hopefully with a Dev enforced payment for damage caused, but I would also like to see a forgive button. Cause once in awhile you took the damage cause you walked into it. In BF3 I play on hardcore servers and have only ever been booted once for team kills and that was cause I killed three players that ran into my 240B full auto stream of bullets, that I was shooting down a hallway in metro and the idiots ran over me and straight into my bullets andall of them died and I was kicked cause it was set at three tk's and you are kicked. Did I shoot them on purpose, no, did they run right in front of an obvious machine gun on full auto, since the barrel flash is high. but hey, not everyone is observant or cares when all you got to do is respawn. But 12v12 is non respawn so TK will be severe punishment to the team. Griefing will be easier not harder in a mech. As has been noted back armor even in Heavies is tissue thin to an alpha strike and You could get at least two maybe more tk's intentionally pretty quick at the start of a map. 3-4 if there are lights and mediums. Hopefully IFF will not let you lock onto a friendly mech and you will not be able to fire unless there is at least a level one lock. So that obvious TK and friendly fire away from other people won't happen. On the other hand I like true ballistics in a sim and they say this will be a sim. And if I fire and you walk into it, then oops. But I wouldn't mind paying if it was my fault. Talk about a lesson. This will also hopefully stop players from merrily charging away and trying to get as many kills as they can before they are taken out. I am sure it won't stop all of that style of play, which I don't mind. But eventually players will realize that taking damage is bad and has a long term cramp on future play.

chris

[Red Beard]

von Bremerhaven, on 17 March 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Rise of Flight has no automatic teamkill governing mechanic. Intentional friendly fire incidents are usually a case of bad target identification, or shoulder-shooting (attacking a target with a friendly between you and that target). The community, in general, will just verbally 'correct' the offending pilot, though many squads have been known to kill the offending player in retaliation. The game has a built in voting system to allow the server population to kick or ban the pilot, if it seems to be his intention to just try and pi$$ in everyones cornflakes. I have never actually seen anyone banned in my 2 years in that game, though I have certainly seen my fair share of pilots 'corrected'. RoF is F2P after the initial purchase and the difficulty and skill required to play acts as a firewall against the more wanktardish type of online player (no CoD or FPS types here), and this game has the highest quality community of any I have ever played.

I like to think that the MWO community will fall towards the latter of my examples, rather than the former.

Post of the Week. Did anyone pay attention to the second paragraph? No teamkill governing mechanics. Just let the players regulate themselves. That's why the US is having so much trouble now, over-regulation. Don't let the Obamites destroy this game too! No regulations other than the players!

[Watchit]

Hmmm... I don't know think a "free for all" system on known TK'ers would work to well with MWO considering how the team based system works.

Though perhaps a way to offset the damages of TK's could be a Team Killed mech could get free repairs? maybe explain it as government compensation of some sort. At least that way a TK'd player wouldn't be stuck with a repair bill and the accidental TK'er wouldn't get any false notoriety.

[J0anna]

Interesting discussion and one I never think about since my primary MMO is EvE Online. However if this really bothers you, then only drop with people you trust/know.

I do know that bounties don't work (people will just have a friend/alt kill them and split bounty) and making someone pay repair bills won't either (just transfer c-bills to another account before the match). Since 'death' in this game is rather benign (you don't lose your mech, and your mechwarrior can't be "killed"), I really don't see what the big issue is. If someone on my team deliberately kills me, either 1) I won't drop with him again or 2) I'll get him kicked from our corp.

FF definately needs to be in, as well as the ability to sell-out your team, anyone with even a passing interest in Battletech Fiction, knows that back-stabbing and double-crossing are part and parcel with Battletech. As for me, I'll probably join a merc corp and work to earn their trust as they earn mine. If PGI decides to control this, that's fine. If they don't, then the players will have to.

[Tryg]

Allowing the players to regulate would be fine, provided systems are included in the game to allow for community regulation. The problem with word-of-mouth is that it takes an excessively long time to disseminate, and further, can become exceedingly bias. And it is also an exceedingly good example of the few affecting the many. A few lone wolves drop in to wreak chaos because they think it's fun, and every player they do this to ceases to trust /any/ lone wolf players, making it that much harder on legitimate players to get into matches and have fun.

A simple system would be punishment based on damage. You inflict 10% damage on a mech, you pay 10% of the repair bill for that mech. New players accidentally hitting a team mate would take small cost-hits, but it would be minor at most. Players spreading damage out over their whole team, meanwhile, would face much larger penalties. As for transfer of funds, this would assume funds can be transferred between accounts (I suspect that won't be an option since the game is free-to-play, people could just 'account farm' to load up on currency then transfer it to a primary account) A better way to ensure that doesn't happen...take the cost for damage inflicted out of the round rewards first. I think it is probable that even the losing team will be awarded some manner of c-bills, abusive accounts would therefore be gaining /nothing/ for the round and thusly be unable to repair their own mech of any damage, making it harder for them to repeat the performance the next drop.

[wwiiogre]

Well how would you regulate the players regulating the game? You would have to put in rules and regulations allowing the players to do it? Or did you think it was gonna be voluntary?

The Cheese's suggestion of making the TK'er or pilot that freindly fires pay for it. Needs no regulation, no police, just a bit of code to track who caused what damage and what it costs to fix. With a forgive button if the two players work it out in game, would stop the effect from taking place. Otherwise if you know you got to pay for what you break, automatically, no whinging or making excuses to get out of it. Bet players would learn not to do it.

Yet the dev's already have IFF and have a leveled targeting computer. The code could be as simple as not allowing weapons to fire without a level one lock showing the enemy mech. Nothing would stop the griefer who took time and effort into making sure every time he fired that a friend was in the way between him and the enemy. Now, if a griefer took that much time and effort to get off some friendly fire. Then I know I would learn to not let him behind me, ever. I would also not let him be on a team I was on, if it happened more than once to me or any teammate of mine. Now in the above instance, where thru game code you couldn't intentionally target a friend, but if a teammate happened to be in the forward firing arc between a friend and a foe. Then more power to that player for pulling off what would be very hard to do. This kind of action is even supported in the fiction of the BT novels. But what I have described above is not the typical team killer or griefer, you would have to be patient, take your time, play with the team and then in a matter of a few moments try to get an unintentional friendly fire or team kill. that would take skill, purpose. I could appreciate what that would take to accomplish. On the other hand, I would respond exactly the same way as above. Not get in your forward firing arc, make sure none of my merc group play with you. But before I would do that, I would make sure you did it on purpose and you did it more than once. Then I would avoid you and make sure everyone knew about your rep.

To me the above fits in perfectly with BT lore and fiction. But it would be much harder to pull off. You generally couldn't be team killing at spawn. You would have to work with the team, maneuver with the team, try not to get killed by the enemy and then put your mech in line with a teammates mech with an enemy at the far end and then try to time it with all three mechs moving in different directions and make your rounds end up in your teammates back. That would be worth applauding. And it would take lots of time and effort. Which means your team might just have already won the match, or your mech got splattered cause you weren't shooting at the enemy but instead were only trying to pull off a perfect hidden shot.

In the end, I still think the devs should auto charge the guilty in cbills unless the target forgives them. But I would settle for the above cause it would be very hard to pull off. Especially without being caught and while finishing the match/map and not getting killed by the enemy as you stalk your own teammates.

chris

Dev's have said no multiple accounts and no transferring cbills or xp of any kind ever. So splitting bounties won't work. Could be pulled off of course. Just much harder to do it in game with in game money or items. But who knows how they are gonna do things really, its all just wild arse guesses at this time. Even the things they have said are not set in stone;

chris

[Dras Black]

Tryg, on 17 March 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

A simple system would be punishment based on damage. You inflict 10% damage on a mech, you pay 10% of the repair bill for that mech. New players accidentally hitting a team mate would take small cost-hits, but it would be minor at most. Players spreading damage out over their whole team, meanwhile, would face much larger penalties. As for transfer of funds, this would assume funds can be transferred between accounts (I suspect that won't be an option since the game is free-to-play, people could just 'account farm' to load up on currency then transfer it to a primary account) A better way to ensure that doesn't happen...take the cost for damage inflicted out of the round rewards first. I think it is probable that even the losing team will be awarded some manner of c-bills, abusive accounts would therefore be gaining /nothing/ for the round and thusly be unable to repair their own mech of any damage, making it harder for them to repeat the performance the next drop.

I don't see why this would be a bad idea personally i feel bad whenever I accidentally TK/FF and in this game with NO re-spawns I'll feel worse, I want to give the player C-bills to fix the dmg that I accidentally did. Mind you my Blue-on-Blue fire is minimal but I cant speak for everyones aim and how everyone else feels. I pay for what I F-up. i don't see why I should just give my lance mate the finger and say "Fix it you're damn self" if it was my bad. The main problem being the people that run out in front of a full spread of missiles or a few PPC shots.

[LordDeathStrike]

pardon me all, genious moment:

TK repairs, should be billed, to the player that shot the friendly (aka track who dmgs what, if you hit your team mate, your cbills will be garnished to fix every point of dmg, from armor paint dings, to that arm you blew off, to that reactor you breached)

this system, is completely 100% fair, you wanna kill your team? its gonna cost you alot.

you accidently wang your buddy? well its gonna cost you, not him to fix it.

the only potential grief is people trying to stand in front of you so you cant shoot, but you dont have to fire, you can just leave the game and not have a repair bill and leave the griefer to get annihilated.

if somoene else already brought this up i didnt see it, feel free too implement this at once, post haste, ff should be on, and ff should cost the person shooting his buddy the repair money to make sure its not abused!