334 replies to this topic

[Tryg]

The people I don't understand, are the one's who say 'it's not that common of an occurance' Have these people played an online title this decade? Unless you're playing on heavily regulated servers, or password protected servers, this sort of behavior is something you can come across every day, even if you only play a small number of rounds. That to me, suggests it is in fact, quite common.

Some of the suggestions put forward in this thread are good ones, some not so good. But one thing all these suggestions have in common is the intention of preventing this particular type of 'gamer' to spoil the game for the masses of the community. My personal preference, is for systems that don't punish the griefer sort, but rather reduce their effectiveness. Having funds auto-deducted to cover repairs (and when I say this, I mean ear-marked for repairs and repairs only, not lining the pockets of the victim, as like so many others, that could easily be exploited) I'm not even for punative damages, why? Cause such systems can easily be abused by the very people its set up to stop.

Community imput is great, and using a 'neighborhood watch' style community policing to report offenders in a public venue is great in theory, but how do you prevent people from adding names to the list who were not in fact guilty of the crime they're accused of? What happens when someone new to the game refuses to follow orders of the merc group he got dropped with, and they then accuse him of griefing?

As has been stated before, there is no perfect system, no real way to prevent these occurances from happening. If there were, every major multiplayer title would have such a system in place. However, to pretend the problem doesn't exist in online gaming, is a revision of history and reality. Will it be prevelant in MWO? There's no way to know, as the game isn't out. However, in case it is, wouldn't you rather have a system in place to reduce the impact instead of having the devs have to suddenly drop their projects to implement one rapid-fire after launch to stem the issue?

It is a difficult problem to address, and it'll be up to the developers to either implement a system to reduce the impact of problem players (And again, I'm not talking an accidental TK here and there, I'm talking people going out of their way to spoil the fun of other players. Deliberately and maliciously) or to ignore the problem and hope it doesn't hurt the game's population too badly.

Whether there's a system in place or not, I'll be playing the game. And how me and my group will handle trouble-makers will depend on what we have to work with. One thing I can say for certain, we will often have lone wolves with us I'm sure, and we'll always offer the benefit of the doubt on the first drop with us. So veteran or completely new to the mechwarrior franchise, as long as you're here to play MWO and not stir up issues, we'll all get along just fine.

[Dlardrageth]

wwiiogre, on 20 March 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

[...]
or we could just take dissenter number one's plan, DO NOTHING, Don't EVEN TALK ABOUT IT, it's just a waste of time, besides dissenter number one only respects people that agree with him/her.

chris

Or you could just use this forum's ignore/block function. Not sure what might be the hidden agenda there, maybe a potential griefer looking to prevent life being made too hard for him? Who is to know?

Back to the thread's topic... it's not just about what the players would like/prefer or not. It's also about the public image MWO acquires. It isn't exactly a good selling point if you can get TK'd/griefed/etc. at heart's desire. Especially not in a F2P game where people can just pack up and move off without a real loss, if they don't like what they see in matches. Thus all those arguing for "laissez faire" as far as wanton TK'ing and FF is concerned, can either not care about MWO much or simply just look for "yet another FPS", is my suspicion.

Having seen/experienced myself what happens if these issues are ignored (haven't touched my BF in ages, can't be bothered really), I'd rather have the strictest, tough as nails and meticulous oversight system that PGI can come up with/afford.

In the same manner I hope account bans are handed out swiftly and probably even with public announcement, if the need for them arises. Noone forces you to misbehave, and the consequence of losing your account is rather lenient, considering in real life someone might have punched your face in for good in a similar situation. Don't want to risk losing your account? Fine, then don't be an ****. If you don't like that you can GTFO, for all I care. To my knowledge noone ever claimed PGI wanted to turn MWO into a playing field to rehabilitate borderline sociopathic behaviour.

[metro]

>keep it on topic<

little less personal(insinuations).....I recharged my 'ceptor last night , I dont wanna have to whack anyone.

[Red Beard]

Metro, on 21 March 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

>keep it on topic<

little less personal(insinuations).....I recharged my 'ceptor last , I dont wanna have to whack anyone.

Thank you for stopping by your Greenness! Things are under control. Some threads have trolls, this one has an ogre.

But we're behaving this time, I swears on the precious, we're behaving!

Edited by Red Beard, 21 March 2012 - 07:05 AM.

[wwiiogre]

Some threads have trolls that are pirates as well.

chris

[John Wolf]

Red Beard, on 20 March 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

John,

First, thank you for addressing my post with respect. Respect is a commodity rare today, and to have some to give others is really cool.

I understand that you would benefit from some examples. I will try.

If I am closing in on a fight that broke out between a friendly and an enemy off to the periphery, I may be inclined to break off and engage the enemy. If I see that the enemy mech has an upper hand and that my buddy is overheated, I might be so inclined to "Jolly Roger" for my teammate and take a few hits to keep him alive. If that happens, should my teammate get all ticked off and say I am grieving? An extreme example, to be sure, but the idea is that whether an action is good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.

As far as the commander role being filled by a "loser", all I can say is, you are going to have bad games no matter what. It is going to happen so seldom that to get upset over a single game going south once in a while is not worth it.

In your last statement, you mention that I am a hindrance because I have not provided an ezample of how to stop grieving. I am guessing then, that you have not read the entire thread in an interest of gaining "perspective". I have said all along that I do not think there is a way to stop grievers, AND, that I believe that grievers are rare enough that nothing should be done. Period. No example needed.

Thanks for a respectful post. Others on this thread should take notes.

Red,

You're correct, I haven't really read over the entire thread so if I've missed some of your responses that would have had more valued information in them I apologize. I wanted to get my 2 cents in, but didn't have the time to read the entire thread up to that point.

In your example, I've completely agreed that you are working as a team. You're showing a very rare quality for an online game and self sacrifice. However, both of our examples differ not in appearance, but as I stated, intent.

To provide a different viewpoint, look at Forums. ANY forums. Without moderation, things get out of hand, personal attacks, insults etc, and the community will suffer because of it. Online games operate the same way forums operate, people left to their own devices can get out of hand.

I played a game of BF3 last night, Friendly Fire enabled, and there was a LOT of mistaken deaths. Some people apologized (I know I did, even if it wasn't my fault but my rounds were the cause), and some didn't. Although I was intentionally TK'd once because one player got shot, and I happened to be someone standing nearby who he thought was the person responsible. That server had a !punish or !forgive system which can work if people are responsible, and can get abused as well.

To sum this up, before I forget my point.. is if you believe or support moderators in forums, as to your comments before as Metro steps in.. why do you not believe that in game moderation/support is needed?

Your view seems clear, that you don't believe its needed.. and if you're sticking to that, cool. I'm sure everyone here understands your viewpoint. However the thread is about stopping or curbing these actions in MWO. Do you have any ideas that could be used to stop people from griefing, grieving, whatever the proper term is? Even if you didn't believe a system was required, can you be neutral and provide some suggestions for people to toss about and discuss.

Thanks again,

[Trevnor]

Speaking as a former moderator for a CS:S server, I can say that TKer's and griefers are a common problem. Usually, a warning would stop most behavior, then a kick, then a temp ban. If they came back after that it was a permanent ban. I think that if there is a system, and I've read a few on this thread, where team mates of said TKer could have a voting system to kick/ban a problem player. That way, it balances any one person that just doesn't like another from kicking that player.

One the other hand, another idea was to have weapons go free, and full lock ons for problem players. I mean, there are a lot of tactical situations that might seem like someone is greifing, like the example that Red gave. In those situations, I would only consider something like that as team work, and if the player that Red saved didn't realized that, then he would have to be a noobie. I know that if I was pushing my heat curve, and someone gave me a hand, I'd be more grateful than anything else.

I've read quite a few good ideas, and hope that the devs are paying attention. In the end, we will have to play the game, and see what results from that, before implementing another system or two on top of what the devs have been/are planning.

[metro]

Red Beard, on 21 March 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

.
But we're behaving this time, I swears on the precious, we're behaving!

Good. Cuz you all see this?? It is the code of conduct you all agreed to abide by, to use this sight.

so we wont be allowing this------------->

[Red Beard]

John Wolf, on 21 March 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Red,

You're correct, I haven't really read over the entire thread so if I've missed some of your responses that would have had more valued information in them I apologize. I wanted to get my 2 cents in, but didn't have the time to read the entire thread up to that point.

In your example, I've completely agreed that you are working as a team. You're showing a very rare quality for an online game and self sacrifice. However, both of our examples differ not in appearance, but as I stated, intent.

To provide a different viewpoint, look at Forums. ANY forums. Without moderation, things get out of hand, personal attacks, insults etc, and the community will suffer because of it. Online games operate the same way forums operate, people left to their own devices can get out of hand.

I played a game of BF3 last night, Friendly Fire enabled, and there was a LOT of mistaken deaths. Some people apologized (I know I did, even if it wasn't my fault but my rounds were the cause), and some didn't. Although I was intentionally TK'd once because one player got shot, and I happened to be someone standing nearby who he thought was the person responsible. That server had a !punish or !forgive system which can work if people are responsible, and can get abused as well.

To sum this up, before I forget my point.. is if you believe or support moderators in forums, as to your comments before as Metro steps in.. why do you not believe that in game moderation/support is needed?

Your view seems clear, that you don't believe its needed.. and if you're sticking to that, cool. I'm sure everyone here understands your viewpoint. However the thread is about stopping or curbing these actions in MWO. Do you have any ideas that could be used to stop people from griefing, grieving, whatever the proper term is? Even if you didn't believe a system was required, can you be neutral and provide some suggestions for people to toss about and discuss.

Thanks again,

Thank you for the kind response.

As far as moderators in forums, I guess I have to say that I feel like they are only there because the sites that have them want to protect their IP by keeping certain, "element" out and making it more palatable to the masses. I come from a really different background than most, and I have MUCH thicker skin than most. I have been called every name in the book, (surprising, I know), and I have also been sent emails with threats and messages like..."..goodbye a-hole! Glad you were kicked out, don't evar come back!"...and with all of that, I am totally unbothered. I have NEVER reported a single person for ANYTHING in a forum, simply because I don't pretend to tell people how to speak or behave. If somebody wants to let loose with some less than savory words to get their thoughts about me across, let me have it. I am a grown frickin man.

I grew up in the inner city of the bay area of California and went on to become a wildland firefighter, then a construction worker, and for the past decade, I have taught Shaolin kung fu. I am totally unbothered by speech and behaviour that would get you banned. That said, I also know that most people respond much better to kinder, easier going language, so I have learned to use "forum-speak" in order to not get banned, again. Honestly, cursing and vulgarity is just how some folks communicate and I don't think anyone has a right to tell you to not be YOU. But, this is America and our rights are sneaking out the back door in terms of freedom of speech, so we all need to be nice to each other.

Again, John, I respect your views on this thread, but this thread is an open forum, is it not? You are not required to come here and only post things that others agree with are you? That said, I will continue to post respectfully, but I will not alter my opinions to fit into your beliefs.

Cannot wait to wipe the floor with you sooner than later!

[Tryg]

It is in fact a common misconception that the Freedom of Speech we enjoy in this country is unlimited and universal. It isn't, and never has been. The owner of a property or establishment has a right which supercedes individual rights in regards to that establishment or property. This extends to the internet as well. While you have the right on a public street to say whatever you like (with the caveat that you must not be a threat to the safety of yourself or others), on or in a private venue (Someone's home, a business, or a webforum) your freedoms exist only so far as the owner of that establishment chooses to allow.

In this way, using this forum as an example, the moderators would be well in their rights to remove posting privilages or outright ban someone for the board for merely being entirely off-topic, speaking of religion, politics, or even football. Merely because they've established this board for the discussion of their upcoming game release and content relating to it. Because this is a privately owned forum, and privately owned game (even if it is released as a free-to-play, they will still own it) And so can quite legally moderate content within the game.

This applies from simple things like moderating language on the forums, to forbidding certain offensive behaviors in game once it is released. And they can do all of this without once stepping on an established 'Right'

So drifting back on topic, I'm less concerned with language itself then I am with behavior. You can spout all the profanity you want, throw a fit, and much more without ever truely offending someone. Or you could use absolutely proper language and have someone fuming ready to put their fist through their monitor. The former sort of behavior, while perhaps seen as childish, isn't too harmful to most of us as we're used to far worse.

The latter type of behavior, even when done skirting the rules of what is allowed or isn't, is where trouble happens. When someone is saying or doing something JUST to ignite the tempers of those around them. It is this sort of behavior that is either characterized by or used to provoke intentional team-killing, game-drop-outs, and more. The difficulty comes in finding a way to stop this behavior without punishing the lesser (or in my opinion non) offense of the formerly mentioned sort.

[Red Beard]

BTW Metro, where can I get those cool little animations? I can think of more than a few things that I can do with that flamey guy....mwahahaha!

[John Wolf]

Red Beard, on 21 March 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Thank you for the kind response. As far as moderators in forums, I guess I have to say that I feel like they are only there because the sites that have them want to protect their IP by keeping certain, "element" out and making it more palatable to the masses. I come from a really different background than most, and I have MUCH thicker skin than most. I have been called every name in the book, (surprising, I know), and I have also been sent emails with threats and messages like..."..goodbye a-hole! Glad you were kicked out, don't evar come back!"...and with all of that, I am totally unbothered. I have NEVER reported a single person for ANYTHING in a forum, simply because I don't pretend to tell people how to speak or behave. If somebody wants to let loose with some less than savory words to get their thoughts about me across, let me have it. I am a grown frickin man. I grew up in the inner city of the bay area of California and went on to become a wildland firefighter, then a construction worker, and for the past decade, I have taught Shaolin kung fu. I am totally unbothered by speech and behaviour that would get you banned. That said, I also know that most people respond much better to kinder, easier going language, so I have learned to use "forum-speak" in order to not get banned, again. Honestly, cursing and vulgarity is just how some folks communicate and I don't think anyone has a right to tell you to not be YOU. But, this is America and our rights are sneaking out the back door in terms of freedom of speech, so we all need to be nice to each other. Again, John, I respect your views on this thread, but this thread is an open forum, is it not? You are not required to come here and only post things that others agree with are you? That said, I will continue to post respectfully, but I will not alter my opinions to fit into your beliefs. Cannot wait to wipe the floor with you sooner than later!

Red, I'm sorry for this misunderstanding.. I am not trying to get you to change your opinion. You're welcome to it and I respect you for voicing it. However, I was asking if you could contribute to the topic. I understand you don't believe its necessary, I just think that you can still believe its not required, but 'If I was FORCED to implement some kind of system, I would do... this.' and provide something for us to debate and consider. (And maybe someone else to say that wouldn't work or its too much. )

I'm just trying to get you to provide even a tidbit of support for the topic, even if you don't agree with it. I'll consider that a marginal victory if I can make it happen.

Also, don't be so eager to meet me in the field.. I don't play as nicely there as I do here. Although, I'd be happy to make sure we meet up in a game sometime and have a duel.

[Red Beard]

John Wolf, on 21 March 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Red, I'm sorry for this misunderstanding.. I am not trying to get you to change your opinion. You're welcome to it and I respect you for voicing it. However, I was asking if you could contribute to the topic. I understand you don't believe its necessary, I just think that you can still believe its not required, but 'If I was FORCED to implement some kind of system, I would do... this.' and provide something for us to debate and consider. (And maybe someone else to say that wouldn't work or its too much. )

I'm just trying to get you to provide even a tidbit of support for the topic, even if you don't agree with it. I'll consider that a marginal victory if I can make it happen.

Also, don't be so eager to meet me in the field.. I don't play as nicely there as I do here. Although, I'd be happy to make sure we meet up in a game sometime and have a duel.

You are as good natured a guy here as I have seen. I will try.

I would, in the effort of keeping things simple, implement a small area within each pilot's "publicly viewable" profile, where others can leave their contributions to that pilots reputation. You can add to it in a positive way, or use it to warn other players of said pilots deeds. If the pilot has negative feedback, AND it is right there for all to view, he might have real trouble getting a game until he changes his ways.

I used to play Black Ops zombies alot, and before I started any game, I would check to see how many levels the players that joined my room had achieved. Not the exact same thing, but some kind of simple way of letting others know what you have been doing, good or bad.

[Red Beard]

wwiiogre, on 21 March 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Some threads have trolls that are pirates as well.

chris

I gotta hand it to ya here, Grumps, thats not too bad! I can accept that!

[T0RC4ED]

Red Beard, on 21 March 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

I would, in the effort of keeping things simple, implement a small area within each pilot's "publicly viewable" profile, where others can leave their contributions to that pilots reputation. You can add to it in a positive way, or use it to warn other players of said pilots deeds.

Red, buddy, Ive got to say I dont like this Idea.... I can just see the pages and pages and maybe even a book of people calling me a hacker like they did on MW2 and Black ops...(I never did these things). I would assume I would end up with a similar rep on MWO. Just because I dont like the Idea doesnt mean its not a good one though

[metro]

ok, Red, red,and John....

your picking at each other is like


So I must ask you all to refrain, carry on with the topic

or I will shut it down, and give you all a day or 2 away from MW:O posting privys.

I promise!

[Bawb]

how about just not making weapons converge on your own team ever... making your own team hard to hit anyway... not impossible... but without convergence weapons wouldnt exactly target thier own team... making aiming at team members isnanely difficult...

[Red Beard]

T0RC4ED, on 21 March 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Red, buddy, Ive got to say I dont like this Idea.... I can just see the pages and pages and maybe even a book of people calling me a hacker like they did on MW2 and Black ops...(I never did these things). I would assume I would end up with a similar rep on MWO. Just because I dont like the Idea doesnt mean its not a good one though

It's ok, I didn't like it much either. I just figured I would think of SOMETHING...

Metro, on 21 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

ok, Red, red,and John....

your picking at each other is like


So I must ask you all to refrain, carry on with the topic

or I will shut it down, and give you all a day or 2 away from MW:O posting privys.

I promise!

Metro, as you serious? We have been more than respectful, especially these last 4 or 5 pages. Could you re-read some of it please. Now I am confused

Bawb, on 21 March 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

how about just not making weapons converge on your own team ever... making your own team hard to hit anyway... not impossible... but without convergence weapons wouldnt exactly target thier own team... making aiming at team members isnanely difficult...

If anything, I think this might be a way to go, for starters. I like this idea, but I think it may be a bit tough to implement. I dunno...

[Red1769]

What Bawb said...that could be an idea. I like that one if it could be implemented decently...

[xKiNGx]

He didnt mean to shoot him in the back with a multitide of explosive projectiles...

Any whoo.. I think that a kill switch would be a bad idea... If your a noob, have one broken arm... or just suck at this game... That would probably be a good reason to shut you down and use you as bait for getting kills..
The best idea would probably be bounty.. cause TKer's to become pirates and they have bounty on there heads, the player gets the chance to have good ol' fashion revenge... and get benefits from it. I would also like to point if there was a report system GM's would have to look into the reports yada yada yada... A bounty system would save time and effort...

And besides.. doesnt everyone wanna battle for #1Pirate/Jackass?