120 replies to this topic

[Woodstock]

But the clans SHOULD be better than the IS ... so mking it balanced just makes them boring.

The 'balancing' should come in the control of who gets to play a clanner. An I don't think that should be based on money/Roleplaying/ desire ... It should be based on did they win a 'trial of position.'

No one can complain if everyone has the chance to enter. No one can complain if they lose fair and square ... cos they just try again in the next trial. Its not a one chance and if you lose then sorry you never play a clanner. Its a sorry you lost this time ... go back to the simulator and train and come back next time.

The only restriction should be: once you have unlocked the clans on your account then you can't enter another 'trial of position.'

[Jaroth Corbett]

woodstock, on 02 November 2011 - 02:18 PM, said:

But any player who is allowed to play clan tech will have a huge advantage over inner sphere pilots.


And that will start a whole mess of crying and moaning.


If it has to be a human at the controls of clan mechs I'd say devs and staff. But I doubt there will be enough bodies for that.


Which brings me back to Bots.


The only question is...Is A.I. upto the task?


Maybe later on we can phase in players into clan control. But to begin with I dont see how they could possibly balance clan/inner sphere factions.


They shouldn't be balanced for G*d's sake! The clan should be superior! so how can some players be given that advantage over others? (contest winners?)


so Staff or bots.


Comments?

The one advantage the IS had over the Clans is numbers not just as in we have x number of warriors & you have y number of warriors, Clans voluntarily chose to fight with less people.

So here is a possible solution:

Aethon, on 03 November 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:

Balance is simple - use a Battle Value system similar to tabletop. Value everything based purely on its performance, not its intimidation or coolness factor, and group the units in appropriate numbers for their side.


Thus, a high BV star of Clan mechs (five) could go up against two low BV lances (8 mechs). Or, a trinary of Clan mechs (15) could go up against a Company of IS mechs (16). The IS would still have a slight advantage due to their number (more tactical options available), but...if done right...it would work just fine for gameplay reasons.


It really is not hard to make something like that work, IMHO; I trust they are able to do it. I am not going to cry and quit if I have to play as a mercenary, mind you; I just prefer the Clan ideology and military organization. *shrugs*


Also, since I am already in Clan Hell's Horses Gamma Galaxy, in MWLL, I would prefer to stay in the same unit.

CoffiNail, on 03 November 2011 - 12:50 PM, said:

You see, they HAVE to make players the Clans, why because there goes a HUGE chunk of the player base who says ***** you! I very much may be one of those players. MW2:31CC and GBL ARE my two games, when ever I played MechCommander 1 and 2 I would focus on trying to get clan mechs and re forming lances in to stars. I will only play IS as long as I have to, and if they do not give that option, I will probably just stick to MWLL.


I do agree there should be a set of tests for The Clan players. They should be players that know the lore and in combat trials will show that they will fight one on one letting other clan members know they have chosen to pick this target. Or even better a sensor to let you know this mech is already targeted by trothkin.


I to the dismay of my team mates in PUBs on MWLL will often let someone finish their battle before jumping in to finish off the enemy if he happens to win the fight. I also get extremely frustrated when I am in a battle with someone for the better part of a minute and we are both skillfully dodging and manuvering to have some surat filth come and pop a couple PPCs in me, ending the duel.


If they picked the right players through a set of Trials before hand, then let those players pre-play as clans in Clan vs Clan battles to hone their skills of zell.


If done right, it could be amazing!


Also bidding, as someone pointed out earlier. Clans Bid, This would be the staple as well to see which clan star/binary commander gets to do the drop. Yeah going to suck when your star looses the honor, but hey part of being Clan.


On the topic of the staff playing the clans... too laughable. I am sure they will get some game time, but DEVs do not play the game the same way. They would not be running around going, "Alright need to take out this unit" they run around and go "Oh hey there is that enemy on radar, wait... why is that building's texture not sitting right, I think I need to remember to tell -person- to get that fixed. DEVs from my knowledge tend to analyze their game when they play it.

I completely agree. Mechwarrior 3 was my 1st online game & also the 1st Mechwarrior game I ever played,. After reading about Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat & then Mechwarrior 2: Ghost Bear Legacy, it was **** disappointing to play as an Inner Sphere Unit. All 3 of the MW4 games have the player as an IS unit or worse, detestable mercenaries. I swapped IS mechs & tech as fast as I could in those games. The ending of the Steiner Campaign for Wolf's Dragoons in MW4:Mercenaries where you took the Trial of Position for Clan Wolf was my FAVORITE part & it was the **** last mission of the game. If they want to make it pre-invasion, cool. but at least it is only 3049. Oh btw guess which Clan was in the IS in 3049?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 04 November 2011 - 05:21 AM.

[Amarus Cameron]

Saw your comment before edit...mine has no bearing anymore

Edited by Amarus Cameron, 04 November 2011 - 05:15 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Sorry if I threw you off there. I had no idea how long they let a post go for, so I kept pasting quotes then adding my replies to them as I went along to see if they would cut it off. Please feel free to say what was on your mind.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 04 November 2011 - 05:20 AM.

[Woodstock]

so maybe we need a new poll?

How should the clanners be selected?

1) Real money purchase? (Oh *** no please no!)
2) Trial of position? (daily/weekly etc)
3) Open to all.
4) Don't let players play clan.

What do you think?

[Razor Kotovsky]

woodstock, on 04 November 2011 - 05:23 AM, said:

What do you think?

I think this matter is closed. Who wants to play clan should totally be able to.

Besides IS quickly gets up to speed with the technology.
As a mercenary i don't see any problems at all.

Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 04 November 2011 - 05:30 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Are you not grasping this? After 5 games (MW3, MW3:PM, MW4:V, MW4:BK & MW4:M) there are people ITCHING to play the Clans. You bring out a new MW game, then you BETTER give us something to scratch that itch. A delay is not a problem but no relief will NOT be tolerated. Your job as a game developer is to make your game the best & to make everyone WANT to play YOUR game. There is MW4:M & MW:LL for people that want to play clans. If you want your new game to pull people away you had better have it. So no bots. If the devs want to be Clan of course they can, they MADE the game! To limit it to only the devs though, would be VERY counter-productive.

[CoffiNail]

You know... it is a lot more work for the gents at PGI... maybe the best bet is 4 months after it is live, open the Clans as their HomeWorlds, There they have to prove their skills in Zellbrigen, piloting and gunnery skills, and RP skills. Remember it was mainly the front line galaxies that invaded. The rest all stayed at the Homeworlds. Maybe having a set of 'trials' to determine what players get to continue as Clans, can get heavy practice in Zell fighting ONLY clans, maybe the occasional IS bandit/pirate in the Periphery. This way players can get use to the system, but it is not a huge jumping of ship when the clans arrive. When the clans arrive, people playing the Clansmen have already been doing so for a certain amount of time.

Have a VERY nice introduction for people explaining the ins and outs of Clan warfare and let it be known you are EXPECTED to follow it. Plus to be Clan you need to join a clan, which will have skilled Pilot/RPers as the Star Colonels, Captains and Commanders who can then assist the endoctine of the less knowledgeable player with out taking the fire our of Operation Revival.

Early morning thoughts.

[Woodstock]

CoffiNail, on 04 November 2011 - 05:38 AM, said:

Have a VERY nice introduction for people explaining the ins and outs of Clan warfare and let it be known you are EXPECTED to follow it.

But who enforces it? and how do they enforce it?

Your earlier comment is okay though about having clan v clan only battles for the 6 months prior to the invasion.

[Woodstock]

Made a new poll ... have a look and vote please guys and clanners

[CoffiNail]

woodstock, on 04 November 2011 - 05:50 AM, said:

But who enforces it? and how do they enforce it?

Your earlier comment is okay though about having clan v clan only battles for the 6 months prior to the invasion.

That is the question, quiaff Maybe unit commanders?

[Woodstock]

CoffiNail, on 04 November 2011 - 05:57 AM, said:

That is the question, quiaff Maybe unit commanders?

Once you open the gates to the players ...saying anyone can join ..you can't then kick them out cos their don't roleplay right!

might be able to limit who gets to go to the inner sphere ...but that is a very very thin patch of ice and I would not want to be anywhere near that one!

[IS Wolf]

Zendric, on 04 November 2011 - 04:17 AM, said:

With standard IS pilots?

Lol, one Fire Moth could take out that trash.

Hardly. Terrain would be deciding factor. Lots of trees or debris or even a city environment?
Then that Fire Moth will not be able to go full throttle. Toss in Streak Technology for the Spheroids and that Moth is going to get hammered if he gets too close.

------------
Trial of Positions aka Contests will do nicely.

[stigner]

OK, i may be missing the mark here, but I think some people are missing (or possibly not just fully applying) what the concept of the "REBOOT" part of MWO might encompass. Bear with me here, as I might be thinking too far outside of the box.

If we follow the timeline, IS tech will have time to close the gap on clan tech for the year the clans retreated.

IF we have players playing clan factions, what are they going to do for the year off?

IF we can only play as IS pilots, are we just going to be stuck in limbo for a year preforming raids on clan garrisoned worlds?

Is it possible to play BOTH clan and IS? Let me explain that one. Say we join a unit from the DCMS. While we are not defending a world from the Smoke Jaguars, could we be fielding a unit from the Jade Falcons against an FC unit?

Those are just a few speedbumps, if you will, about following the timeline to the letter.

My other big question is what happens to the timeline if we win a battle that was lost in the books?

I think a lot of the answers we have about if/who should play as clan pilots cant truly be answered until we find out more of how the Dev's plan on the game being played. Thoughts?

[Seth]

I am quite dubious of allowing people to join clan factions. Before I continue though, I will say I have played as a clanner since MW3 and have been part of Clan Jade Falcon for over 9 years. So I would love to be able to play as a Jade Falcon. But, when I put the roleplay aspect aside and look at the practical point of view, I really think it would be better to keep Clan units restricted to Bots.

The Clans need to be universally feared and respected as a force that comes out of nowhere. In the novels, people actually entertained the idea that these invaders were actually aliens instead of just people with superior tech. Having missions where you and 20 of your friends can try to defend a planet from the invaders or where you raid a clan garrison for some precious clan salvage practically writes itself. But if you end up letting anyone join or start a clan unit, you could realistically end up with a bad team of clanners getting their **** kicked by some no-name planetary militia unit.

On the subject of salvage, once we start getting access to clan salvage, that stuff should be gold. Sure that Clan Pulse Laser runs a bit hot, but you better believe you will find some way to install it on your Thunderbolt. And can you imagine if you get your hands of a salvageable Shadow Cat? If you can simply join a Clan faction and get access to all the equipment that comes with that, Clan salvage looses a bit of that revered status.

Having competitions allowing people to compete for a spot in a clan unit might be fun, but then how can a group of friends who have formed their own online units stay together offline if their best online players are supposed to play against them. Additionally, you end up rewarding the best players in the game with superior technology and making them even better which makes no sense at all from a balance point of view. The same could be said of allowing only veterans who have played for a long time to join clan factions. The people who have been playing the longest can move onto a clan unit and new players are stuck with the hand-me-downs.

Having both factions be playable requires finding a way to balance I.S. teams vs Clan teams. Relying on tonnage means you end up with tech where the Inner Sphere clearly has the edge (looking at you MW4 I.S. ballistic and A-LRM weapons). That should not happen because the Clans should have a technological edge in every single way. Basically, clan mechs should be able to hit as hard as an I.S. mech of a weight class above them while or be able to move like an I.S. mech of a weight class below them. Relying on BV works in table top games, but only because you have two players instead of 5 vs 8. If you loose a Stinger in a tabletop game, no big deal because you still got 7 mechs to play with. But if you are the guy who is actually in the Stinger, your opinion is probably different because you are stuck on the sidelines until the next round starts. BV will not work because inevitably you will end up with a number of I.S. pilots dead and waiting for the next round to start.

You can not rely on roleplay to handicap clan players either. Half the players who would end up joining a clan faction would probably be doing it simply because of the easier access to the advanced tech. And the other half who honestly want to roleplay have different ideas of what the correct way to roleplay is. (Bidding is only done among the attackers, you do not keep bidding against the defenders!)

You would also effectively split the player pool in half between I.S. and Clan players. And honestly, I think more people would switch to a Clan faction than remain with an I.S. unit. You would end up with undermanned House armies.

We have not had a MechWarrior game where you create a character and have a persistent attachment to one faction or another. Until now, your allegiance was simply identified through your tags. Until now, anyone could join an open game, and take any mech and weapon combo they wanted. If you intentionally handicap a person in a match against another person, half those people will quickly become disenfranchised with the game.

[Seth]

stigner, on 08 November 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:

If we follow the timeline, IS tech will have time to close the gap on clan tech for the year the clans retreated.

The I.S. doesn't start to close the cap technologically until around the 3060's. Keeping in mind that for every year the passes in the Inner Sphere, one passes in real life too. So the two sides might start to reach parity around 2025.

stigner, on 08 November 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:

IF we can only play as IS pilots, are we just going to be stuck in limbo for a year preforming raids on clan garrisoned worlds?

The Inner Sphere was hardly a peaceful place before the Clans showed up. Trust me.

stigner, on 08 November 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:

My other big question is what happens to the timeline if we win a battle that was lost in the books?

Great question!

[MagnusEffect]

Zombie post FTW But yeah, hands down, you want to be a badarse clanner, you got to EARN it... the clan way; Trial of Positions, bidding systems, etc. need to be integrated into gameplay. Playing for the clans NEEDS to feel fundamentally different from playing as an IS unit. I don't want my favorite targets going soft on me

Also, THIS (for future discussion):

http://mwomercs.com/...lect-a-clanner/

Edited by MagnusEffect, 09 November 2011 - 02:46 AM.

[3Xtr3m3]

Col. Sanders, on 02 November 2011 - 02:40 PM, said:

People should have to test into Clan warfare, in a trial of position. They'd need to be able to fight using Zellbrigen.

"Col. Sanders?" Really!?!?
Love your original recipe. Eat at your place all the time. I am guesing you are hoping to be Clan Jade Chi...Uh Falcon .
all in fun please take it that way.
I seriously think that the clans will not be fought battles that players can influence. They will be done deals. No contracts for Mercorps to defend against them, they will be news flashes that what was a Faction planet is now a Core planet with no chance for players to alter the planets fated acquisition by The Clans.

[3Xtr3m3]

woodstock, on 04 November 2011 - 04:56 AM, said:

The 'balancing' should come in the control of who gets to play a clanner. An I don't think that should be based on money/Roleplaying/ desire ... It should be based on did they win a 'trial of position.'

No one can complain if everyone has the chance to enter. No one can complain if they lose fair and square ... cos they just try again in the next trial. Its not a one chance and if you lose then sorry you never play a clanner. Its a sorry you lost this time ... go back to the simulator and train and come back next time.

The only restriction should be: once you have unlocked the clans on your account then you can't enter another 'trial of position.'

Maybe a good spot for a PAY situation. 32 people PAY to compete for a clan position, 1 or 2 come out with them. Fits with clan tradition for a Bloodname. And I am guessing the line would be long with people willing to shell out cash for those coveted positions. Including those who would gloat over their success in beating 31 other worse players than they are. These re the ones that when they run into a well run IS TEAM, would get their butt handed to them.

[Gremlich Johns]

CoffiNail, on 04 November 2011 - 05:38 AM, said:

You know... it is a lot more work for the gents at PGI... maybe the best bet is 4 months after it is live, open the Clans as their HomeWorlds, There they have to prove their skills in Zellbrigen, piloting and gunnery skills, and RP skills. Remember it was mainly the front line galaxies that invaded. The rest all stayed at the Homeworlds. Maybe having a set of 'trials' to determine what players get to continue as Clans, can get heavy practice in Zell fighting ONLY clans, maybe the occasional IS bandit/pirate in the Periphery. This way players can get use to the system, but it is not a huge jumping of ship when the clans arrive. When the clans arrive, people playing the Clansmen have already been doing so for a certain amount of time.

Have a VERY nice introduction for people explaining the ins and outs of Clan warfare and let it be known you are EXPECTED to follow it. Plus to be Clan you need to join a clan, which will have skilled Pilot/RPers as the Star Colonels, Captains and Commanders who can then assist the endoctine of the less knowledgeable player with out taking the fire our of Operation Revival.

Early morning thoughts.

I very much like this musing!!! The homeworlds being open as a separate part of MWO would allow the people playing clans to work together, develop the Clansmen mindset for bidding, etc!! This would also support some of what Jaroth started here

Mongo like!!

Mongo not like the pay to be Clan idea. You will never know what kind of player has the cash without the Clansman's soul.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 14 February 2012 - 06:33 PM.