120 replies to this topic

[THE350MAN]

clans are cool with me

[Aethon]

Hmmm...it seems that many do not understand exactly why we prefer to support the Clans; while I cannot speak for everyone, I think I can explain why the vast majority of Clan supporters do what they do.

First off, regarding Clan technology...people constantly complain about it, but there is a reason it is so advanced. About 250 years before Operation Revival, with the fall of the Star League, all the IS houses started blasting one another (along with their research and production facilities) back to the stone age. They were about halfway done with that task when Kerensky's people returned. During those ~250 years, the Clans did not attempt to dismiss violence either; instead, they acknowkedged that armed forces are necessary, and that violence is part of man's nature. They simply restricted wars to warriors, so the civilians, research and production facilities, infrastructure, etc. were not harmed in the ensuing powerplays. Thus, IS tech was a good several hundred years behind Clan technology when Operation Revival began, and the IS has been playing catch-up ever since. This, however, has little to do with the reason most of us prefer to play as Clansmen.

Then you have the ideology. The IS is full of regicide, greed, assassinations, destruction of infrastructure to prevent anyone else from having it, intentional and pointless murder of countless civilians, and general chaos. The great houses say they wish to re-establish the Star League, but let us face the facts: each house lord only wishes to do so if s/he is the First Lord. Rather than holding a consensus of some sort to choose the First Lord, they insist on fighting wars across all of inhabited space (or the bit they know of) to try and force the point, with little in the way of rules of conduct. This is not the spirit of the Star League; this is a handful of dictators jockeying for power. And before you argue that the Clans do the same thing, know this: they keep their non-warrior castes out of the crossfire, and do not risk destruction of infrastructure in their trials.

Do not misunderstand me, though; there have been terrible deeds committed on the part of both sides (momentarily glares at the Smoke Jaguars), but to err is human, and the Clans never claimed to be perfect. In the long run, however, it boils down to one word: vision. The Clans hold the Star League in reverence like nothing else; the Star League, after all, enabled what may very well be the longest and greatest period of peace and prosperity humanity had ever seen. The Clans...and, of course, the Wardens and Crusaders within...often pursue different means to this end, but this is the goal for which they were all founded.

In short, we have better reasons to support the Clans than their technology or claims of being 'elite'. After all, anyone can use their technology or claim a title. I hope this explains our position a little better.

[Woodstock]

MagnusEffect, on 03 November 2011 - 10:10 PM, said:

Bottom line I will reiterate: if the Clans as a faction cannot be made fundamentally different to "behave" like the Clans, make them vicious AI that we all have to fear/fight against as an unwelcome third party/wildcard.

We REALLY need to avoid the Clans become "just another House" like in recent MW titles.

Simply making their equipment cost more and dropping into battle with less tonnage/mechs is boring and uncreative. Think harder people.

Agreed ... Lazy game design is something they should avoid ...we have waited years for this game, so a few extra months is not that scary

Please don't give us another Star Trek online ... Great IP ... 2D game.

Edited by woodstock, 03 November 2011 - 10:52 PM.

[MagnusEffect]

Phades, on 03 November 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

You can't force people to role play the most clean idealistic clan style of honor and tactics. That is the bottom line. And unfortunately that is the reality they have to code against. Even if they were to try, you would have a backwards system rewarding good players in the IS, but punishing good players in the clans, as inherently "good" players (competitive natured spike style folks) are going to get the job done in the most efficient manner possible. While lore wise this would elevate their rank, unless of course they used overwhelming force (oops we are talking about the competitive crowd), which would be always. Thus just as they reach their desired "elite" status level, they would lose it the first chance they got to use it. It would **** off the guys at the top and invariably **** off the folks at the bottom since that will invariably end up being what they face off against most frequently from their point of view once the game matures to that point.

Now don't get me wrong, I've played on the short end of the stick plenty of times and longer than i'd care to admit. I can deal with it to a degree, but after awhile it just gets overwhelming. Other folks are not nearly as patient or stubborn as I am and will give up. Seen it happen far too often. What i've put forward isn't imaginative or creative, but it is harsh and realistic given the circumstances.

Um...what? Other than suggesting Clans only take up to 40 ton mechs, I didn't read any solution. Something about "competitive natured spike style folks"... whatever that means. Are you talking about min-max guys?

Some points to clear up on the subject of limiting Clan recruits to invited top ranking Inner Sphere players:

• I never suggested newly recruited clan players have to stop using their Inner Sphere characters.
  
• Never suggested players get kicked after their first loss (rather, I would suggest a threshold or grace period that allowed new clanners to gain their footing).
  
• The threshold of wins vs losses for keeping your Clan membership could be based on the average of the Clan as a whole
  
• There would be a max limit for players of each Clan. The max limit could still be quite large based on the % of the player base. Possibly in the high hundreds for active members? More? Let's hope so. Most serious players could probably hit the top 15% of the entire player base easily I'm guessing.
  
• Not all players would bother to stay/accept the invite, thereby opening up to players ranked below them.
  
• The Clans' superior player base and technology would be balanced by a smaller player base for these factions than the Houses. Less players online means less territory they can actually take and hold (mirrors the actual Clan invasion). This is assuming such game mechanics will exist of course.
  
• Tweaks and balancing issues would obviously play their part.
  
• I agree that my solution for player based clans ends up only rewarding the top ranked players, but honestly... if I'm fighting a Clanner and they suck, I am ****** on principle for them giving me an easy fight.

I welcome a better solution to resolve the generic factional differences. The Clans BY NATURE are an alien warrior culture. It is time we had a MW game that actually reflected that. If you want more sameness, MWLL is an excellent game worth picking up... zero distinctions between clans and houses.


nitpicking aside....

AGAIN I ASK: HOW ARE WE/YOU/WHOEVER GOING TO MAKE THE CLANS SOMETHING UNIQUE BESIDES JUST "ANOTHER" HOUSE? making stuff cost more is soooooo boring and has been done to death.

at least this idea is ballsy and (to my knowledge) original for the MW franchise, mods included. short of making a true MMORPG with the proper (well.. sorta) introduction of different factions those games offer, I am having trouble finding a better solution.

Honestly, if I had things my way, I would probably just make the Clans a badass NPC faction, give them nasty AI, and make everyone wish we were back in 3025

Edited by MagnusEffect, 03 November 2011 - 11:50 PM.

[Woodstock]

MagnusEffect, on 03 November 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:

Honestly, if I had things my way, I would probably just make the Clans a badass NPC faction, give them nasty AI, and make everyone wish we were back in 3025

The more I read this thread I started the more I agree with you. The only concession to the clanners I would make is I would have them act as Star commanders for the clans. (ala lance structure of mw4) And selection of them should be by invitation only, based on a combination of forum roleplay and kick As* game stats.

The clans could then be PROGRAMMED to leg people ... to spout all the clan garbage they always do about freebirth scum etc etc .... It would really help create atmosphere.

Edited by woodstock, 03 November 2011 - 11:55 PM.

[MagnusEffect]

woodstock, on 03 November 2011 - 11:53 PM, said:

The more I read this thread I started the more I agree with you. The only concession to the clanners I would make is I would have them act as Star commanders for the clans. (ala lance structure of mw4) And selection of them should be by invitation only, based on a combination of forum roleplay and kick As* game stats.

The clans could then be PROGRAMMED to leg people ... to spout all the clan garbage they always do about freebirth scum etc etc .... It would really help create atmosphere.

judging by the number of clan players out there, that sounds like A LOT of star commanders running around *****-nilly. but I like it as an alternative maybe have targets set by the Clan Khan AI so individual star commanders have something to focus their efforts on. really anything that fosters a *real* distinction between how the Clans and House factions play I am down for.

edit- apparently you can't say W.I.L.L.Y? the censoring here is oppressive!

Edited by MagnusEffect, 04 November 2011 - 12:10 AM.

[Woodstock]

Well yes ..there are lots of people here who like clan tech and have the piloting skills but don't really have the clanner mentality ... and I'm sure there are plenty here who have the clanner mentality but the piloting skills of my long dead granny (RIP)

So I'm sure if you limit the clan recruitment to a mix of those two things (clan mentality and kick A*S piloting skills) you will find the numbers of viable candidates is significantly lower.

[Zendric]

woodstock, on 04 November 2011 - 03:41 AM, said:

So I'm sure if you limit the clan recruitment to a mix of those two things (clan mentality and kick A*S piloting skills) you will find the numbers of viable candidates is significantly lower.

But that is entirely not fair, people who love the lore of the Clans but aren't top-tier amazing awesomesaus will be miffed and kept from their wanted faction.

[Sideways]

You could make Clan part of the paid part, I personally would be willing to pay subscription to play as clan but thats just me. Or because of honor and the bidding process, in larger battles you could limit the number of clan players or augment the IS side with bots. But if you alientate the Clanners you are going to everntually loose a huge number of players who are going to get tired of being forced to fight for a faction that is not theirs. At least in 3, 4, and Mercs we still had the option to slap our Clan Logo's on for multi player.

Well Bargained and Done.

[Zendric]

Sideways, on 04 November 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

But if you alientate the Clanners you are going to everntually loose a huge number of players who are going to get tired of being forced to fight for a faction that is not theirs.

Exactly, once the novelty of trolling around in mankey IS tech is gone I probably wont be held for long if I can't hop into Clan Smoke Jaguar and roleplay my dear old heart out.

[Woodstock]

Zendric, on 04 November 2011 - 03:54 AM, said:

But that is entirely not fair, people who love the lore of the Clans but aren't top-tier amazing awesomesaus will be miffed and kept from their wanted faction.

But doesn't that make them clanner wannabe ... bondsmen at best (okay I know its a touch harsh. but to make the clans a completely playable faction which is so nerfed as to be no better than the inner sphere is a horrible idea. And I don't wanna play clans.

Personally I would have preferred a 3025 timeline but i wasn't consulted

The fact we are close to the clan invasion and they have stated they want to keep close to the timeline means we are facing some amazing, epic tactical battles. Which I am worried that your average joe player might mess up.

Anyway ... you said its unfair but if you are some what ... 'challenged' in the piloting department would a true clan warrior think that they deserved a place in the clan 'faction'? Or are those the ones that will train and train and train ... enter contest after contest to earn their place along side their brothers.

If they just say ... its not fair I'm not playing this 'F-ing' game anymore ... then do you think they were right for the clan faction in the first place?

I think having to earn a slot in the clan faction will energise the community, not kill it.

[Razor Kotovsky]

Players ofc. But there is no reason in letting them fight IS players without being outnumbered or somehow balanced via other means.

I heard there is something called BV in tabletop, c/d?

P.S.: Stop baiting, vatborns.

Edited by Razor Kotovsky, 04 November 2011 - 04:09 AM.

[Woodstock]

Zendric, on 04 November 2011 - 04:01 AM, said:

Exactly, once the novelty of trolling around in mankey IS tech is gone I probably wont be held for long if I can't hop into Clan Smoke Jaguar and roleplay my dear old heart out.

So if your stuck in your IS mech thinking **** this s*cks! An the devs are offering the chance to enter the clan faction by winning a contest ... what would you do?

Say 'thats lame and everyone who wants to get in should get in' or do a 'rocky' and train and win that contest!

Earning your place. So no one can say your just a clan wannabe.

[Amarus Cameron]

My brother warrior Zendric has hit the nail right on the head. If we are forced to fight for factions we have no love of, why would we stay? And ok, say that we stay, the developers will not make much off of us. Why would we buy paint schemes and other such things that have to do with factions that we have not a care in the world about. I certainly will not pay for the aspects of the game I do not care about.

woodstock, on 04 November 2011 - 04:04 AM, said:

But doesn't that make them clanner wannabe ... bondsmen at best (okay I know its a touch harsh. but to make the clans a completely playable faction which is so nerfed as to be no better than the inner sphere is a horrible idea. And I don't wanna play clans.

Personally I would have preferred a 3025 timeline but i wasn't consulted

The fact we are close to the clan invasion and they have stated they want to keep close to the timeline means we are facing some amazing, epic tactical battles. Which I am worried that your average joe player might mess up.

Anyway ... you said its unfair but if you are some what ... 'challenged' in the piloting department would a true clan warrior think that they deserved a place in the clan 'faction'? Or are those the ones that will train and train and train ... enter contest after contest to earn their place along side their brothers.

If they just say ... its not fair I'm not playing this 'F-ing' game anymore ... then do you think they were right for the clan faction in the first place?

I think having to earn a slot in the clan faction will energise the community, not kill it.

Also as much as I know many people worry about their ability to get into the clans I must agree with Woodstock. If one cannot complete a trial of position successfully why should they be in a clan? Although I do think lower areas of the clan should be open to failures. Kind of like assigning them to solahma or garrison clusters while the big boys go off and fight in front line clusters.

[Frantic Pryde]

Look, clearly the players have to be allowed to play clan. So many of us have been waiting a very long time for this and to deny us the ability to play with thenfactions that we are so attached would just **** off way to much of the player core.

That said this is a game and there needs to be balance.

The battletech universe gives the devs plenty of tools to deal with this. Since there is clearly some kind of xp system, the clans can have a different system based on honor. I think bidding and zellbrigen absolutely needs to implemented or you will just get a bunch of munchkins running around being unbeably obnoxious.

Clans need to have better tech. Let's keep this as true to battletech as we can. Just make clans restrictive so only the die hard clan players would want to do it.

[Zendric]

woodstock, on 04 November 2011 - 04:04 AM, said:

But doesn't that make them clanner wannabe ... bondsmen at best (okay I know its a touch harsh. but to make the clans a completely playable faction which is so nerfed as to be no better than the inner sphere is a horrible idea. And I don't wanna play clans.

Personally I would have preferred a 3025 timeline but i wasn't consulted

The fact we are close to the clan invasion and they have stated they want to keep close to the timeline means we are facing some amazing, epic tactical battles. Which I am worried that your average joe player might mess up.

Anyway ... you said its unfair but if you are some what ... 'challenged' in the piloting department would a true clan warrior think that they deserved a place in the clan 'faction'? Or are those the ones that will train and train and train ... enter contest after contest to earn their place along side their brothers.

If they just say ... its not fair I'm not playing this 'F-ing' game anymore ... then do you think they were right for the clan faction in the first place?

I think having to earn a slot in the clan faction will energise the community, not kill it.

It will murder any player based Clans, who in my experience can play a huge role in maintaining an active community.

If we do have to do a ToP to enter Clans, it should only be so difficult as to eliminate the "lol am assault mech" pilots and the sort.

[Amarus Cameron]

Razor Kotovsky, on 04 November 2011 - 04:07 AM, said:

Players ofc. But there is no reason in letting them fight IS players without being outnumbered or somehow balanced via other means.

I heard there is something called BV in tabletop, c/d?

Yes there is BV but it is not always a good indicator, by BV a star of firemoths are worth less than a lance of heavy IS mechs, but the firemoths will win everytime.

[Amarus Cameron]

frantic pryde, on 04 November 2011 - 04:09 AM, said:

Clans need to have better tech. Let's keep this as true to battletech as we can. Just make clans restrictive so only the die hard clan players would want to do it.

Including bidding and zellbringen would be most excellent but unless they can code consequences for not doing this I do not see how it is possible to enforce. Otherwise you are spot on. Amarus=die hard player

[Zendric]

frantic pryde, on 04 November 2011 - 04:09 AM, said:

Clans need to have better tech. Let's keep this as true to battletech as we can. Just make clans restrictive so only the die hard clan players would want to do it.

Exactly, strict codes of Honor and strict Zellbrigen when fighting other Clans. Also, mech advancement for Clans should be slow, one pilot typically stays with the mech they start with and specialize in it to make them a great duelist.

[Amarus Cameron]

Zendric, on 04 November 2011 - 04:12 AM, said:

Exactly, strict codes of Honor and strict Zellbrigen when fighting other Clans. Also, mech advancement for Clans should be slow, one pilot typically stays with the mech they start with and specialize in it to make them a great duelist.

Indeed, although if we actually went with lore you chose your trial of position mech and stick with it. I chose you summoner!