136 replies to this topic

[Kartr]

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

yes by 3049 you would think we would have nice fancy shields and armour that can repair its self.....IF you managed to have a few centuries of peace perhaps

Actually you're far more likely to have it after centuries of warfare since it would be developed to give an edge over the enemy and then they'd copy it or create their own and you'd have to develop a weapon to defeat, etc. Warfare drives innovation and increases the technological level, not decreases it.

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

to understand the technology level in BT you need to think about the scale of war and its consequences
when a nation attacks another the armys of said nations dont go out into a field and kill each other nicely leaving the contested land undamaged, no instead they make massive assaults on entire regions of land and even use WMD's to take out very large concentrations of defenses .

Not necessarily true, during WWII the Allies bombed the heck out of German industry and defenses and still had to fight on the ground and German technology continued to improve and they continued to produce weapons and advanced tanks and aircraft (Tiger II and ME262 anyone?).

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

as single attack on a single state would set the level of technology available in that region back hundreds of years

Again look at Germany, they got attacked over and over and over again and rather than set their technology back, it advanced!!! This is because a nation that is under attack will leverage its technology to create innovative ways of defending itself. Great Britan during WWII suffered under the Blitz, rather than drive their technology backwards, it forced them to improve their defenses, their radar, and their aircraft.

Japan suffered tremendously from US bombing campaigns during the war, culminating in the atomic bombings that brought them to their knees. Yet a few decades later and they were resurgent and are now leaders in the fields of electronics and robotics. Hundreds of attacks did not set them back hundreds of years technologically.

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

(imagine if your city got attacked... you think you would be getting the newest iphone when it launches ?)

Of course not, but the military would be using the technology to leverage their defense and offense. Such as using the iPhone to control small lightweight drones to seek out enemy forces. Or to drive drone mini-tanks through the streets to spot enemy ambushes and engage them while keeping the flesh and blood safe.

Just because the civilians won't get access to the cutting edge technology doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The military almost always gets the next generation of tech before the civilians do. Hundreds of years of war just means the trickle effect of getting new tech to the civilians takes even longer, not that the government and militaries don't have it.

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

when a region is invaded it is usually defended this causes even more damage and usually alot of civilian casualty's

Irrelevant to driving technological decline. Two dozen dead shop keepers and their families doesn't stop the scientists and engineers working in government facilities from working. In fact civilian casualties often spur the research to greater heights in order to prevent future civilian casualties.

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

another thing that happens during war is many civilian enterprises become high priority military targets due to the resources they provide
destroying food,weapon,tech or research stockpiles can cripple any army faster than battles of attrition

Again civilian enterprises being destroyed is irrelevant to the technological and industrial status of a nation. Military researchers will be increasing the technology available to the nation in secret labs that don't get attacked. Factories can be moved, spread out, etc., so that only one or two plants get lost and production doesn't suffer to badly.

Destroying infrastructure can hamper a nations ability to supply its forces and deploy new technologies, but it doesn't destroy that nations ability to research those new technologies or even make them on a limited scale.

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

now i have only been talking about war on a state level, now scale that up to a WORLD WAR level
imagine how bad things would get the longer said war went on

Ah yes we know what happens in World Wars, the technology constantly increases as each side tries to defend itself from the technology the other side produces. If the enemies industrial areas are within striking range of strategic forces they can be damaged to hinder the flow of technology to the troops in the field. However such strikes generally spur new more advanced technology faster than they destroy the capacity to create new technologies.

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

now scale that up again to a galactic level where battle tech sits
technology starts going backwards and it fights hard just to stay at its current level

Nope not really, things should actually keeping getting more advanced.

Think of it this way, if each side is trying to develop technology that gives them an edge over their enemy they're going to continue increasing the level of technology available. Strikes by strategic forces such as long range bombers, missiles and commando's can be used to destroy industrial capacity, and hamper development. However because development of new tech is usually done by small teams in well hidden, well defended secret locations it is hard for strategic forces to find them and kill the researchers and destroy the research.

When we move to the Interplanetary level like BattleTech, you run into the problem that the industrial centers of the nation are often far removed from the borders. The way BattleTech works strategic bombers and missiles are pretty much out of the question. You can't really design a missile that will launch from New Avalon, make multiple jumps through Combine space and then find a specific target on the planet months after it was fired. Bombers have the same problem, which leaves commandos and they have very similar problems of figuring out how to insert and more importantly extract.

Even raiding becomes a problem when you consider a nation can move its production capacity a half dozen jumps or more from the border. That would force a raiding group to spend months or maybe even years behind enemy lines, with no resupply, just to go destroy some factories.

All this means that in BattleTech the technological decline due to war is even more unlikely than on modern Earth since it is so much harder to hamper enemy production and research. The Succession Wars should have seen exponential growth in military technology, with a slower increase in civilian technology as it trickled down from the military. Its the logical outcome of war based on previous wars and the factors that stimulated or hindered innovation.

Naduk, on 02 November 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

so the Einstein who is inventing your amazing regenerating armour or energy shields
he has been killed repeatedly for thousands of years

Actually it was only hundreds of years, and you're actually as correct about this as you were wrong about everything else. The scientists were repeatedly kill during the ~250 years the Succession Wars lasted, but not by the wars. Rather the scientists died again and again because ComStar was conducting Operation Holy Shroud. Operation Holy Shroud was started during the Second Succession War and killed off hundreds of scientists as well as destroying research facilities and Star League caches.

ComStar conducted a centuries long campaign to cripple the Inner Sphere and drive it into technological and industrial decline. This was to enable them to eventually become the undisputed masters of the Inner Sphere by being the only ones with advanced technology. The drastic decline in the general level of technology and industry shows how successful they were at reversing the natural course of war time innovation and progress.

[Sgt Kartr]

quote buffer

[Kartr]

Vellron2005, on 03 November 2011 - 05:10 AM, said:

Personally, I think that shields would be a good option, and would bring some dynamic to the game. Look at today's tanks. 100 tons of armor, and it still gets blown to bits by a few well placed missles. Now add lasers and gauss to the mix.. In Mechwarrior, it always took lots of punishment to take down a 100 ton mech,and I always thought it was a bit unrealistic..

Untrue, many modern MBTs can take multiple anti-tank missile hits without being destroyed. Add in the fact that armor technology is always advancing to keep in step with advances in weaponry and it becomes obvious that future weapons will be countered by future armor capable of defeating them.

Well yes it is unrealistic in 'MechWarrior, but everything about BattleMechs is unrealistic. Their design is horrible for military vehicles, providing large targets with high centers of gravity, low stability, poor recoil management and low inherent accuracy. Out of all of that the way armor works is probably the least unrealistic and should simply be accepted as the logical progress of armor vs weapons.

Vellron2005, on 03 November 2011 - 05:10 AM, said:

Shields could correct that. An example of this was a game called Mission force: Cyberstorm.. It was a turn based strategy game, but the mechs there employed both shields and armor and it made the game dynamic cose' you had to think about what your weapon loadout would be like. Energy weapons took out shields, while other weapons did more damage to armor. The same principle would work well here.. Shure, older fans of the game would say no to shields, but back in the times of the original mechwarrior games, things were done a different way. This is the new age where we can have our mechs more realistic, more dynamic and overall more fun.. Why not?

So you're advocating we go to a painfully simplistic paper/rock/scissors setup where lasers beat shields, shields beat ballistics, ballistics beat armor and armor beats lasers? That sounds incredibly boring and simple and gimmicky, not to mention completely unrealistic.

Instead we have a system that allows you to pick weapons based on a series of built in drawbacks. This system allows you to create a setup that best reflects your play style without having to worry about gimmicky paper/rock/scissors game mechanics. You have to think about what your weapon load out is like based on potential terrain, environmental effects, preferences, weight, heat, criticals, etc.

This game is being derived from the TT game as much as possible and this isn't a "new age" of "more realistic" or "more dynamic" and "more overall fun," rather this is a game that rejects the annoyingly gimmicky paper/rock/scissors and infinite lives, and regening health and shields, in favor of a more realistic all or nothing type system. If you take damage its there and there's no getting rid of it, every weapon inflicts damage, some more some less, and that makes it more realistic than what you're suggesting.

So go back to your Halo and your Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer if you want your regening shields and your paper/rock/scissors style mechanics. Around here we like to live on the edge, rely on our skills, try to keep our armor from taking hits, position ourselves so damaged armor doesn't get hit again, and generally rely on skill rather than shields and carrying a paper, a rock and a set of scissors all the time.

GHQCommander, on 08 June 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

One more thing. Shield tech is no big deal, in real life basic shields will exist in the next 30 years.

Do tell! I would love to see where you're getting this from, the idea that we'll have "energy shields" in the the next 30 years.

GHQCommander, on 08 June 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

The developers would easily get away with creating a shield mod that applies even a weak temporary energy shielding around the selected part of a mech.

No they couldn't because such a thing has never existed in BTech. The closest thing was some sort of device that from what I can tell, sucked in dust particles, charged them and blew them back out to in order to create a cloud of charged particles that interfered with PPCs.

GHQCommander, on 08 June 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'm not talking big powerful bubbles and I am talking possible solutions to when this issue starts to be an issue. We'll find out soon enough won't we.

Simple solution if, and I mean IF legging becomes a problem, increase the amount of armor on the legs and/or decrease the size of the leg hitboxes.

[OcO]

There is a misunderstanding on the term legging I believe. How I've always read it refer to is in simply destroying 1 leg and the mech is "dead". As you posted Bud this is not how they are doing it in MWO you have to destroy both legs to destroy the mech.

Once again I don't know where it was stated but if you destroy only 1 leg it does not get blown off, the mech simply suffers a speed debuff as it limps around with its good leg. From there if you then take out the second leg as well you destroy the mech as you have underlined.

Yes both descriptions are "Legging" however it was the older method of only needed to destroy 1 leg to destroy the mech that caused complaints in the past and was what I was specifically referring to in my posts.

[Kartr]

OcO, on 08 June 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

If you have read all the dev blogs and Q&As you would know this. It has been verified by a dev you can not blow legs off.

Edit: To not be a total *** I'm not exactly sure where that is referenced from. I know I have seen it verified but could not tell you from what source or thread.

Buddahcjcc, on 08 June 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

ok... again...


http://mwomercs.com/...5-mech-warfare/

Bolded and underlined. Where did they say theyre taking that out?

also, again...
http://mwomercs.com/...devs-5-answers/

Like I said, if theyve changed that, show me where so I can update my info. And if they have THEY need to update their Q&A
And honestly... a MW or BT based game where they make body parts indestructable because people cry?

Destroying legs isn't the same as blowing them off. A leg can be destroyed in that it no longer works, but it can still be attached and hold the 'Mech up.

[DireWolf307]

Uh oh, Nazi Germany has been invoked, thread lock in 3...2...

[Justesp]

DireWolf307, on 08 June 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Uh oh, Nazi Germany has been invoked, thread lock in 3...2...

Quickly, everyone! Point at him! Point at him and laugh! HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!

[Uller Phrost]

IF you like a Mech game with regenerative armor check out CAV. They had a nano gel that would harded over holes. good luck on CAV I have some mechs and the rules but REAPER dropped CAV mostly 5 years ago

[DireWolf307]

Buddahcjcc, on 08 June 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

what? where? Other than your post?



Like your quote

Kartr had several paragraphs talking about WWII Germany. What is that exactly?

The mods here have shut down threads for less.

Edited by DireWolf307, 08 June 2012 - 01:30 PM.

[BlackMoore]

GHQCommander, on 08 June 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Played them all.

But this is not them all. This is a brand new thing and at some stage the devs will start doing things in it that never existed anywhere else in the mech world canon or not. It is inevitable otherwise after 3 years it will get boring.

All I remember is that they said the clock will keep ticking, time will keep progressing. So I can't help thinking that at some stage new technology will be introduced and need to. Someone said hitting legs is harder than I think, I don't agree.

Everything I read about the game so far, sounds like the game is going to be about shooting legs and when a team focuses fire on a single target to do it. What the heck will stop them?

Your right the clock IS ticking and the Tech will come with canon not a marketing stratagy. I look forward to seeing you on the battlefield

P.S.
When you see me, don't try to raise your shields.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Tech civilians are using means the Militay is 20 years advanced.

So when we get new bits of hardware and processing power etc. Really awesome futuristic gear....well...military is 20 years BEYOND that.

Really crazy stuff like direct particle beam weapons. Those blue prints have been around since tesla.

Lots of cool stuff.

[Redvette]

I agree with everyone who has said 'no' to shields and no adaptive... regenerating armor. Nope, if you are a fan of the books (classic ones) and the games you know they struggled to keep things working. Also, the tech they had was pretty basic after you discount the Mechs.
I want shattered armor.

[UncleKulikov]

Negative. There are alternatives with shields and regenerative armor.

http://en.wikipedia....ech:_Earthsiege

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Earthsiege_2

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/CyberStorm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starsiege

[BlackMoore]

Earthsiege and starsiege are mechs, but a different story. They are not part of BattleTech.

[DireWolf307]

BlackMoore, on 08 June 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Earthsiege and starsiege are mechs, but a different story. They are not part of BattleTech.

Actually, they are HERCs.

[Kartr]

Buddahcjcc, on 08 June 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Like your quote

Thanks.

DireWolf307, on 08 June 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Kartr had several paragraphs talking about WWII Germany. What is that exactly?

The mods here have shut down threads for less.

Because saying "Germany developed better technology while being bombed night and day for years," is the same as saying "They're as bad as Hitler/Nazis!"
[/sarcasm] Yes I can't see any difference my self, you are correct I invoked Hitler/Nazis.[/sarcasm]

I need you to fill out an Eye-Dee-Ten-Tee form please.

Edited by Kartr, 08 June 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[GHQCommander]

So the conclusion is, most of you can't stand change. You can't stand change ONLY BECAUSE it is that very thing, CHANGE. It never existed before.

Fact is people. No shields makes no sense whatsoever if you think realistically and thats what many people do especially smart people who know real life technology. Technology in any world, fantasy or in real life would never get as far as it is in MechWarrior without an energy shielding strong enough to repel a bit of everything. That is a fact.

Now sure, someone a long time ago somehow decided that Mechs would not have shields. It does not mean a member of the community cannot suggest some type of shielding is added too the game and they should not get such immature responses for doing so.

Do you all honestly think the state of MechWarrior canon is going to stay the way it is for all time? This MMO will fill in blanks and take advantage of those blanks in order to make more money.

[DireWolf307]

GHQCommander, on 08 June 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

So the conclusion is, most of you can't stand change. You can't stand change ONLY BECAUSE it is that very thing, CHANGE. It never existed before.

Fact is people. No shields makes no sense whatsoever if you think realistically and thats what many people do especially smart people who know real life technology. Technology in any world, fantasy or in real life would never get as far as it is in MechWarrior without an energy shielding strong enough to repel a bit of everything. That is a fact.

Now sure, someone a long time ago somehow decided that Mechs would not have shields. It does not mean a member of the community cannot suggest some type of shielding is added too the game and they should not get such immature responses for doing so.

Do you all honestly think the state of MechWarrior canon is going to stay the way it is for all time? This MMO will fill in blanks and take advantage of those blanks in order to make more money.

Yeah, let's go ahead and change everything Battletech is just to make it more "cool".



Pro Tip. If MW:O is too hard for you because it is what it's supposed to be, don't play. Problem solved. Go play Hawken and have fun with your lolrobot game.

[st1x]

They see me regeneratin'.....They hatin'.....

[OcO]

GHQCommander, on 08 June 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Fact is people. No shields makes no sense whatsoever if you think realistically and thats what many people do especially smart people who know real life technology. Technology in any world, fantasy or in real life would never get as far as it is in MechWarrior without an energy shielding strong enough to repel a bit of everything. That is a fact.

The FACT is that the technology in Battle Tech/Mech Warrior DID get as far as it is with out an energy shielding strong enough to repel a bit of everything.

Your wanting to change the YEARS of source books and established technology to better fit your idea of what the game should be is in no way fact.