129 replies to this topic

[Oswin Aurelius]

To be honest, seeing the shield-like plate of armor on the Centurion, I'm beginning to wonder if the developers intend on being able to equip external armor plates to mechs that have what appears to be a useless arm.

It makes sense if you think about it. A mech's normal armor is pretty much like an exoskeleton, it's actually a part of the mech, thus the 2:1 ratio existing. However, those same limbs CAN mount additional weapon systems that weigh several tons to locations that already have maxed out armor. So, if the arm has space for additional equipment, and you have enough extra tonnage, what's to say you couldn't mount an additional, external plate of armor?

Of course, this is just me speculating, but I'm looking forward to Solaris games at some point in the future, which often use 'mechs that have been altered WAY outside of say, a military mech. Hell, being able to add a control option that could raise the arm in front of the 'mech would allow skilled players to turn a useless arm into a very useful defensive resource.

[Scanlon]

-I would support a ramming manuver because thats not campy. Arn't all MechWarrior games suppose to be non-canon anyways? So I say let us have a good gaming experiance with realistic/believable combats, and no camp!

-Shouldnt a mech that tries a DFA just crash? I assume DFA means Death From Above, and it entails a mech with jump jets, jumping and trying to 'land' on another mech. I really hope thats a very dangerous manuver for the attacker, I hope trying to jump on anything that would be tough to walk on, a hill, craters, landing on the edge of a building, or another mech, should result in a crash.

[Paladin1]

I really do hate that I had to do that, because no one likes being told that their idea won't work, but armless designs are something that has been tried long before and been found to be more likely to result in chassis destruction. There actually used to be an Urbanmech, of all designs, which was armless. The idea was that an armless design had a much narrower target profile and could, hypothetically, be harder to hit, but any damage that hit would hit the torso. Needless to say, that didn't end well and the armless Urbanmechs are now just a footnote in Battletech history.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Paladin1, on 29 March 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

I really do hate that I had to do that, because no one likes being told that their idea won't work, but armless designs are something that has been tried long before and been found to be more likely to result in chassis destruction. There actually used to be an Urbanmech, of all designs, which was armless. The idea was that an armless design had a much narrower target profile and could, hypothetically, be harder to hit, but any damage that hit would hit the torso. Needless to say, that didn't end well and the armless Urbanmechs are now just a footnote in Battletech history.

But what other light mech can mount a ridiculous amount of armor and weaponry? I've always thought of the Urbanmech as a Heavy 'mech that just has a weight problem. XD

[Paladin1]

fatcat01, on 29 March 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

A bit off topic; but do you think we could get a bit of code that allows us to make rude gestures with our 'mech's hands?

That would be kind of cool at first, but frankly it would probably buy us more trouble than it's worth. That kind of behavior is most readily associated with immature, underage kids such as you'd find on CoD or Halo. The average age of a MWO fan, as supported by several polls on the subject, is in the 25-35 age bracket.

Oswin Aurelius, on 29 March 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

To be honest, seeing the shield-like plate of armor on the Centurion, I'm beginning to wonder if the developers intend on being able to equip external armor plates to mechs that have what appears to be a useless arm.

It makes sense if you think about it. A mech's normal armor is pretty much like an exoskeleton, it's actually a part of the mech, thus the 2:1 ratio existing. However, those same limbs CAN mount additional weapon systems that weigh several tons to locations that already have maxed out armor. So, if the arm has space for additional equipment, and you have enough extra tonnage, what's to say you couldn't mount an additional, external plate of armor?

Of course, this is just me speculating, but I'm looking forward to Solaris games at some point in the future, which often use 'mechs that have been altered WAY outside of say, a military mech. Hell, being able to add a control option that could raise the arm in front of the 'mech would allow skilled players to turn a useless arm into a very useful defensive resource.

I actually hate to bring up the shield, as there are shields available on Solaris VII, but for the most part they're just for show and probably won't be seen in MWO outside of S7.

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

-I would support a ramming manuver because thats not campy. Arn't all MechWarrior games suppose to be non-canon anyways? So I say let us have a good gaming experiance with realistic/believable combats, and no camp!

-Shouldnt a mech that tries a DFA just crash? I assume DFA means Death From Above, and it entails a mech with jump jets, jumping and trying to 'land' on another mech. I really hope thats a very dangerous manuver for the attacker, I hope trying to jump on anything that would be tough to walk on, a hill, craters, landing on the edge of a building, or another mech, should result in a crash.

If you consider that DFA is just another form of charge attack, then it makes sense to include it as well. Furthermore, it's incredibly difficult to pull off a DFA successfully and they always result in damage to both machines, so I really have no problem at all including them in the game. It's a desperation tactic.

Oswin Aurelius, on 29 March 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

But what other light mech can mount a ridiculous amount of armor and weaponry? I've always thought of the Urbanmech as a Heavy 'mech that just has a weight problem. XD

Yeah, in a way the Urbie is an anorexic heavy but it's still got a light `Mech's internal structure. Once you burn through that armor, it goes down quickly.

[Scanlon]

Theres a reason melee combat has fallen out of favor. Its because its not better. You dont see SWAT teams or Forced entry teams bringing swords and axes, they bring guns.

BattleMechs that were designed in the 80's and 90's overlooked this sort of thing because it's a fantasy setting, that was pretty much trying to appeal to children. We're grown ups now, and when youre creating or participating in a combat simulator the point is immersion and realism, silly things like swords should go right into the dumpster because they work against the goal.

[Scanlon]

Paladin, the sorts of "melee fighting" youre talking about, I fully endorse.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Theres a reason melee combat has fallen out of favor. Its because its not better. You dont see SWAT teams or Forced entry teams bringing swords and axes, they bring guns.

BattleMechs that were designed in the 80's and 90's overlooked this sort of thing because it's a fantasy setting, that was pretty much trying to appeal to children. We're grown ups now, and when youre creating or participating in a combat simulator the point is immersion and realism, silly things like swords should go right into the dumpster because they work against the goal.

I'm not saying that this isn't true, but what happens when someone has to reload when there's someone standing right in front of them with a shotgun shoved in their face? SWAT forces are trained in hand-to-hand combat, because there will always be situations where pulling out a combat knife is going to save your life.

In Mechwarrior, let's say you're in an Awesome. You've got a lot of high-heat, high-reload weapons. If a Hunchback somehow sneaks up to you and all your PPCs are on cooldown or your heat is too high, you have to wait before you can even think about defending yourself. An Awesome in that situation would punch the Hunchback in the face with it's only remaining offensive option, it's 'useless' left arm (because we all know that small laser's not going to help much XD).

[Scanlon]

In that situation the Hunchback has soundly flanked you and you're beaten; Without intervention of a team-mate you'll likely lose. I dont think there is anything wrong with mechs having short-comings, I think it adds to the game in fact. You have to know yours.

I mean what's the point of being faster and more manuverable and smarter if the Awesome can just punch you and kill you anyways?

EDIT: There's also nothing wrong with losing.

Edited by Scanlon, 29 March 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[Paladin1]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Theres a reason melee combat has fallen out of favor. Its because its not better. You dont see SWAT teams or Forced entry teams bringing swords and axes, they bring guns.

BattleMechs that were designed in the 80's and 90's overlooked this sort of thing because it's a fantasy setting, that was pretty much trying to appeal to children. We're grown ups now, and when youre creating or participating in a combat simulator the point is immersion and realism, silly things like swords should go right into the dumpster because they work against the goal.

Actually, while you don't see swords any longer, you do see hatchets, knives and bayonets even today. There's always going to be a need for melee weapons, even if you don't realize it at first.

Also, check into most of the awards and citations given out during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. A large portion of them involve combat that devolved into hand-to-hand combat and let's not forget about the Gurkha troopers that the Brits use. They're as elite as they come and every single one of them carry a blade.

Edited by Paladin1, 29 March 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Curon Hifor]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Theres a reason melee combat has fallen out of favor. Its because its not better. You dont see SWAT teams or Forced entry teams bringing swords and axes, they bring guns.

BattleMechs that were designed in the 80's and 90's overlooked this sort of thing because it's a fantasy setting, that was pretty much trying to appeal to children. We're grown ups now, and when youre creating or participating in a combat simulator the point is immersion and realism, silly things like swords should go right into the dumpster because they work against the goal.

Oswin Aurelius, on 29 March 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

I'm not saying that this isn't true, but what happens when someone has to reload when there's someone standing right in front of them with a shotgun shoved in their face? SWAT forces are trained in hand-to-hand combat, because there will always be situations where pulling out a combat knife is going to save your life.

In Mechwarrior, let's say you're in an Awesome. You've got a lot of high-heat, high-reload weapons. If a Hunchback somehow sneaks up to you and all your PPCs are on cooldown or your heat is too high, you have to wait before you can even think about defending yourself. An Awesome in that situation would punch the Hunchback in the face with it's only remaining offensive option, it's 'useless' left arm (because we all know that small laser's not going to help much XD).

Seriously, it's not like these 'Mechs suddenly possess Gundam agility or Kung Fu manoeuvres. The kicks are represented by just a stomp and punches look like the most simplistic jabs ever seen. Melee combat has been in BattleTech since almost its entire inception, and it is an incredibly viable tactic on both the TableTop and in real world circumstances. That's one of the reasons an Atlas is FEARED on the TableTop, because if it gets close, BOOM goes the AC/20, and SMASH goes the fists into the enemy's face. And trust me, enemy 'Mechs being within literal spitting distance of each other happens quite frequently in the chaos of urban combat, so being able to kick an enemy in the leg or punch an enemy in the torso can help out a lot.

Edit:

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

I mean what's the point of being faster and more manuverable and smarter if the Awesome can just punch you and kill you anyways?

The fact that you can stay out of melee range of that Awesome

Edited by Curon Hifor, 29 March 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[Orzorn]

Mechs with missing limbs should take longer to get up after being knocked down. This would help to balance this issue also.

[Scanlon]

Paladin1, on 29 March 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Actually, while you don't see swords any longer, you do see hatchets, knives and bayonets even today. There's always going to be a need for melee weapons, even if you don't realize it at first.

Carrying a knife as a desperation last resort is the translation of the Awesome's 1 small laser.

I brought a knife with me to Afghanistan and I used to as a tool not a weapon. Really that's what they're for. Those special forces guys that carry around hatchets or blades need to be able to survive on their own. Being able to survive means you need to provide for yourself, tools help. That's why they bring those sorts of things. Fighting with them is an after thought as you can fight in melee with anything: your rifle butt, or entrenching tool.

Edited by Scanlon, 29 March 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Siilk]

Paladin1, on 29 March 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Actually, it is in the game. It's just that we don't know the full details of how it works or what options are available to us yet. The Devs have gone on record though stating that some forms of melee combat (DFAs and Charges) will be implemented.

DFA and charge attack are just fancy words for "ramming the enemy". There's a big difference between this and "mech-fu". You can ram your enemy in any sophisticated tank sim to try to damage it's tracks or tip it over. What you are asking for is for a tank to come at point blank and try to beat the enemy tank by swinging the main gun at it. The comedic value would be pretty much the same.

Paladin1, on 29 March 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Furthermore, it's also historically an option in Battletech and there are several dedicated melee designs in canon, which is the reason why so many are clamoring for it's inclusion in MWO. If anyone can make the case of melee's inclusion/exclusion being the cause of immersion suspension, it's those who want to see melee implemented. Melee combat is a part of the Battletech Universe, like it or not.

Yes, there are canon melee-centered designs in BT. And no, I don't like them. Oh, and there's a small group of people who also think such mechs shouldn't be in MW games, they are called developers of all previous MW games. And don't try to talk about "game engines not being powerful enough at that time". Gundam games, Armored Core series and lots and lots of other japaneese-style mecha games had melee combat since the dawn of time. Devs of MW games have deliberately chosen not to mess with melee, it just doesn't suit BT sims, plane and simple.

[Paladin1]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Carrying a knife as a desperation last resort is the equivalent of the Awesomes 1 small laser. I brought a knife with me to Afghanistan and I used to as a tool not a weapon. Really that's what they're for.

Army or USMC?

[Grithis]

Fetladral, on 29 March 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

even in the books you don't really see it except for the mechs that have melee weapons

There are a lot more examples than this, but it fits so well. In the novel, "Main Event", a Warhammer pilot by the name of Esmerelda first killed a Charger, and then later an Imp by spearing them with a PPC cannon.

As far as the whole melee combat thing goes, saying something doesn't make sense in a life or death struggle is laughable. I don't care what I have to do in a fight where my life is on the line. If I think beating my opponent with a rubber chicken while wearing a Jello mold on my head and singing "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee" would somehow save my life, that's what I would do.

I'm getting sick of people saying that melee combat doesn't make sense or would ruin realism. We proponents of it aren't talking about turning MWO into a big game of Real Steel, or anything. I just want tactical options to aid me in the field. I might never use any melee system that's implemented. I might also find myself needing melee someday, and it's not there to help me.

[Paladin1]

Siilk, on 29 March 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Yes, there are canon melee-centered designs in BT. And no, I don't like them. Oh, and there's a small group of people who also think such mechs shouldn't be in MW games, they are called developers of all previous MW games. And don't try to talk about "game engines not being powerful enough at that time". Gundam games, Armored Core series and lots and lots of other japaneese-style mecha games had melee combat since the dawn of time. Devs of MW games have deliberately chosen not to mess with melee, it just doesn't suit BT sims, plane and simple.

I see your problem. This has nothing to do with keeping the game canon or staying within the game's past aesthetics, this has everything to do with YOUR interpretation of how things should be. Sorry, but that's just not going to cut it. Also, you point to Gundam, Armored Core and other other Japanese-style mecha games as having melee combat but you neglect to mention that those games came AFTER MW2, which is pretty much the Gold Standard when it comes to MW games.

Your argument is based on your opinion that melee shouldn't be included because it doesn't match the previous game's mood, which was set partially due to technological limitations and partially due to faction limitations. The Clans abhor physical combat, so a game centered on the Clan point of view is, by definition, not going to focus on physical combat.

My argument is based upon the fact that melee should be included because it matches the established canon of the Battletech Universe.

Which one of us is not being consistent here?

[Famous]

The flip side of that Scanlon is that armor designed to stop fast moving projectiles and laser weaponry does not have the backing to resist a melee strike.

As a modern example bullet resistant armor is nearly useless against blunt or edged weapons, so they have stab vests to make up for this shortfall. A slow moving edged or blunt weapon will cause a substantial amount of damage to a mech.

Now punching with a weapon, such as the Awesome's right arm, should wreck the weapon. They're simply not designed to sustain the forces. Any mech with a hand should be able to swing that hand, preferably into buildings, trees, large rocks- all of that could change the face of a battle or maybe even take out a smaller mech

[Curon Hifor]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Carrying a knife as a desperation last resort is the translation of the Awesome's 1 small laser.

I brought a knife with me to Afghanistan and I used to as a tool not a weapon. Really that's what they're for. Those special forces guys that carry around hatchets or blades need to be able to survive on their own being able to survive means you need to provide for yourself. That's why they bring those sorts of things. Fighting with them is an after thought as you can fight in melee with anything: your rifle butt, or entrenching tool.

Siilk, on 29 March 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

DFA and charge attack are just fancy words for "ramming the enemy". There's a big difference between this and "mech-fu". You can ram your enemy in any sophisticated tank sim to try to damage it's tracks or tip it over. What you are asking for is for a tank to come at point blank and try to beat the enemy tank by swinging the main gun at it. The comedic value would be pretty much the same.


Yes, there are canon melee-centered designs in BT. And no, I don't like them. Oh, and there's a small group of people who also think such mechs shouldn't be in MW games, they are called developers of all previous MW games. And don't try to talk about "game engines not being powerful enough at that time". Gundam games, Armored Core series and lots and lots of other japaneese-style mecha games had melee combat since the dawn of time. Devs of MW games have deliberately chosen not to mess with melee, it just doesn't suit BT sims, plane and simple.

Well, this is the chance for MWO to be different than those other games, then. As Grithis mentioned, it's not going to devolve into a Rock 'em, Sock 'em robots match. Besides, how would melee ruin realism anyway? Police have to use hand-to-hand combat on occasion, as do the military. If melee combat was completely useless on the battlefield, why would they teach us how to fight with our fists and feet in Basic?

Besides. We can't argue realism here on a BattleTech/MechWarrior board. Its giant, fighting robots. These things would never be viable in a real-world setting, nor could they really work in a real-world setting. That's like trying to argue realism in Dungeons and Dragons, where Magic exists.

[King Caesar]

fatcat01, on 28 March 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Say I have an Awesome or Centurion and at some point the left arm gets blown off. Apparently we can go into battle with a damaged 'mech, so why not just save the C-bills and leave it off?



maybe get some 'bloody stump' camo too

I would repair it. I cannot tell you how many times I have crushed an enemy under the claw of my Awesome.