129 replies to this topic

[Kenyon Burguess]

-a unweaponed arm is a shield on that side of the body. personally i would repair it for that purpose alone.

-melee is fine. it has never done that much damage (even with a weapon in hand) unless you were an atlas...even then why use it if u have that many close range weapons. its a last ditch play and even if it was included in the game, it wouldnt ruin the immersion with any sort of mech fu moves. slow pondering swing or kick

-it would be nice to pick up objectives tho.

[Volthorne]

Gabriel Amarell, on 29 March 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

5. Do a little experiment, go for a jog
6. Now go for a jog with one arm imobilized, it completely screws up your sense of ballance doesnt it, it also makes it much easier to be pushed over for the same reason. It changes your center of gravity, if you dont believe that have a little shoving contest with someone with that same arm imobolized.

Actually, it's not that hard. I had to pretty much duct-tape my arm to my chest for a whole week because I had fractured my wrist. Running was no problem, except when carrying a heavy weight on my back. The rest of your post, I can't disagree with.


To everyone who says "Screw melee, we don't need that to wreck our game": Melee has, is and will be an essential part of combat. You run out of bullets? Tough luck, pray that your friend isn't out as well. But what good are bullets (which have a much higher physical impact) when you're face-to-face with someone who has 6" and 50 lbs. on you? None, zip, zilch, nada. He's either going to knock you on your *** by throwing himself at you, or wrestle your firearm out of your hand before you can pull the trigger in his direction. Taking a firearm from someone within your reach is actually pretty easy. Now, if you have, say, a knife, club, or other blunt/edged weapon, your chances of winning go up considerably. Why? because now you have a weapon *designed* to be used in hand-to-hand combat.

Try this at home if you don't believe me: Get a friend to equip him/herself with a firearm replica (airsoft, watergun, dartgun, etc.), with the safety off (or pre-cocked, in cases where that may be necessary), standing a couple feet from you. Your friend will have their firearm hanging by their side, you will have whatever dull melee weapon you want (something non-lethal would be the best way to go, just as a disclaimer for idiots who think a kitchen knife would be appropriate). Stand 3' (three feet) from each other. Have a third party say "go" (or something similar), upon hearing this, both you and your friend will attempt to "kill" each other. I can guarantee 90% of the time, you will get inside the minimum range of your friend's firearm before he can pull the trigger. Repeat, but give your friend an emergency melee weapon. What happens? Your friend gets a chance to actually counter your rush.


Just to be clear, I'd be fine with jamming my mech's fist into some other mech's chest and firing all the weapons on that arm. Faster than having to dance around each other. Probably never going to have to do this, but if I did...

Edited by Volthorne, 29 March 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[Oppi]

Siilk, on 29 March 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

Being in the lore ≠ being good for the sim game. For example, LAMs are in the lore too but they are not in the game.

Because it's no flight sim / would be a major balancing issue / would make good map design ever so much harder / would take a lot of development time / LAMS were out of use for ages by the time the Clans invaded / [...] pick one

First it's a Battletech game, so it should be as close to Battletech as it can. Battletech has melee, there are loads of chassis with no guns on the arms or even with melee weapons that would remain useless otherwise, so there's no real reason not to include it.

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Besides, melee never felt quite right in BT. Multiton war machines kicking and punching each other ...

So, you walk down a narrow road in your Atlas, skyscrapers towering on either side, you go around a corner and look right into a Hunchback's autocannon pointing at your head. And you think it more realistic to just stand there and shoot him with your lasers then to ram your *** **** fists right through his cockpit ? Why should one build a warmachine resembling a human (or at least a humanoid creature) if no use is being made of the characteristics of that shape ?

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with a grace of oversized pre-schoolers takes all remains of the realism and throws it out of the window, making you kiss your willing suspension of disbelief goodbye.

So you'll buy jumpships and PPCs, but when it comes to the equivalent of a wrecking ball thrown at your opponent, you're out ?

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So no punching, no kicking and for the love of everything holy, no melee weapons. If you want that things for your mechs, you're better of with japanese mecha.

It's been in the lore since the first book came out, so if you don't like it, maybe it's you who is better off with something else.

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I like those too BTW, but BT mechs have a different style of pseudo-realistic war machines, they don't need "power axes" and "energy swords", not to mention mech-fu.

And when was it that anybody demanded those things ? You're clearly exaggerating. If you have a 10 ton fist and your opponent gets too close, you shove it right into his face. Nothing anime or scifi about it.

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No, that would be Summoner. What is your point?

Easy. I've encountered a significant correlation between people who prefer clan mechs, people who don't like mechs with hands, people who don't like the idea of melee and people who don't give a sh*t about Battletech lore and keep asking things like "there are no MadCat pictures, why don't they do the MadCat, I never pilot anything but a MadCat", so I just had to test my hypothesis (even knowing that not all of these necessarily apply to you), and I think I got pretty close to the Bull's Eye
The Clans deem melee between mechs "dirty," so they don't build fists or other melee weapons. It's not that hard to see why people who pilot Clan Mechs don't want melee in. They'd be at a disadvantage.

Edited by Oppi, 29 March 2012 - 02:10 PM.

[The Cheese]

I figure that it all comes down to cost rather than history, regardless as to whether we get melee or not.

Will it be more expensive to repair your arm, or to replace that PPC that was destroyed because your side torso was unprotected?

Edited by The Cheese, 29 March 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[Lycan]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Because it's a simulator. Its about immersion. Which means if I cant believe my surroundings then im not immersed. Ergo the game has failed it's goal.

So if the game includes melee combat, you feel that it breaks immersion and thus fails in your eyes. If, however, the game doesn't include melee combat, as the TT game does, then in the eyes of those that played the TT, the game fails because it breaks the immersion for them.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there's way more of us that would like it included, since it's part of the Battletech world, then there are those like you who feel it shouldn't be part of the game.

Since PGI seems to be on our side of the fence on this issue, you're more than likely going to be disappointed.

And what do you mean by "camp"? As been stated, melee combat between mechs isn't dropping into a kung-fu stance and going all Bruce Lee on your opponent. It's rudimentary punching and kicking.

Don't see what's "campy" about that . . . but it does make me think you've never played the tabletop game and your only experience with the Mechwarrior Franchise is through the video games, which, in my opinion have NEVER done the franchise justice.

[Scanlon]

Lycan, on 29 March 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

So if the game includes melee combat, you feel that it breaks immersion and thus fails in your eyes. If, however, the game doesn't include melee combat, as the TT game does, then in the eyes of those that played the TT, the game fails because it breaks the immersion for them.

Right, you can't please everyone. I understand I might be in the minority, Im just expressing my opinion.

Lycan, on 29 March 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

And what do you mean by "camp"? As been stated, melee combat between mechs isn't dropping into a kung-fu stance and going all Bruce Lee on your opponent. It's rudimentary punching and kicking. Don't see what's "campy" about that . . .

Being campy means something that is so extreme that it's distasteful and/or amusing. It's camp because it's silly, and hard to be believable.

Lycan, on 29 March 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

but it does make me think you've never played the tabletop game and your only experience with the Mechwarrior Franchise is through the video games, which, in my opinion have NEVER done the franchise justice.

You're right. I admittedly have never played TT. What's important to note is that this is MechWarrior and not Battletech. MechWarrior is a registered trademark and BattleTech has said before that any games under the title MW are not official canon. The game isnt BattleTech Online it's MechWarrior Online. Just like MechAssault isnt MechWarrior, MechWarrior isn't Battletech. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Famous]

Scanlon- I believe you are wrong in your last point.

MechWarrior is a title given to the men and women who pilot a 'mech in the BattleTech universe.

MechWarrior games are based in the Battletech universe. Therefore all MechWarrior is BattleTech, but not all BattleTech is MechWarrior.

The exclusion of MechWarrior games from canon gives the developers and publishers license to include major characters from the universe and/or add in major characters/event/merc companies without changing the overall narrative of the BattleTech universe.

[Rear Admiral]

I think those of us who've had long relationships w/ BT and understand the importance of melee combat in relation to the overall game are trying to be respectful and understanding of those of you who think melee has no place in MWO.

but its hard because to us, for 30 years or so, melee was not a controversy, was not stupid (or at least not any stupider than any other ideas in a wargame of giant walking tanks), was balanced, and served a very important role on the battlefield. Posters like Scanlon continually lose site of this. They believe that since they've never played a video game with melee in it (mostly due to technical reasons), that they are experts on BT and what does/does not belong in a video game. It smacks of selfishness, a lack of perspective, and an overall lack of tolerance for anything you dont agree with.

How can one who has only followed NFL football for 3 seasons claim to know what does and does not belong in the current game? If you had recently taken up hunting or cooking - say, in the last 5 years - how could you go to gathering of cooks/hunters who've been doing it for over 30+ years a piece and try to tell them that a major part of their craft is stupid and to be disregarded? And to top it off, after you speak your opinion, you jam your fingers in your ears and refuse to listen to any counter argument, no matter how polite and respectful it is offered?

It just makes you sound like a spoiled child with no respect for the history of the game or the people that love it and supported it down through the years.

Those of us who've been at BT for decades, have seen many mechwarrior games come and go, not one of them with good melee combat in it, and we see a major part of the game not being represented well. Now we have a chance to see it implemented, and all the rookies/fng's who've played a bastardized version of this game over the years are trying to tell us that it doesnt belong? You have no frame of reference on the subject scanlon, at least not one i can honestly respect.

How can you tell bakers how to make their cakes if you are only a sandwich maker?

[Orzorn]

There seems to be a gross amount of exaggeration and hypocrisy within this thread.

Melee combat has ALWAYS been a part of EVERY aspect of the Battletech universe, from the novels to the tabletop to the mechs themselves (hellooooooooooo Axman). Yes, I understand that Mechwarrior is not Battletech, but I'll be damned if it isn't as close as it can get.

Some folks are exaggerating about melee, claiming its like Gundam or something similar. It is not mech-fu. It is far more like mech boxing. Simple punches and kicks. Very straight foward. The ONLY reason it manages to seem "campy" is because most of the art depicting melee has them doing some rather over the top things, with the exception of the Atlas punching the Masakari. THAT is how it should be (of course, directly destroying the cockpit would take a lot of luck).

Some folks are also opposing it because it "breaks immersion" and because Mechwarrior is a "simulation". Lets get some things straight here. What is Mechwarrior a simulation of? The Battletech universe with respect to mechs. Its immersion breaking to have melee, but not DFAs, charging, or man-made lightning (as Stackpoll would call it)? Why is it not immersion breaking to see a mech land on another mech's head and not topple over? It always made me laugh to see DFAs in Mechwarrior 4, because the attacking mech would just sort of bounce of their head instead of buckling from the now very awkard position of a 100 ton machine standing on top of another's shoulders. On a side note, I would they handle that situation well with the physics system. I'd love to see a DFA'ing mech just flip end over end because of the maneuver being so odd.

Let's look at it from the other side of the fence, as well. How do you think it makes tabletop fans to not see melee in EVERY Mechwarrior game? I love the Axman and Hatchetman. I'd love to see a Kodiak use its claws, the Lyran's get their hatchets, and I'm sure the Draconic dudes would love to be able to use their honorable No-Dachis.

I think some people take the "walking tank" mentality too far. People argue against hands on mechs. People argue against humanoid shaped mechs. People argue against melee. People argue against mechs being able to use their hands or, hell, I've seen a guy argue that he doesn't think mechs should be able to move their arms at all (only up or down like Mechwarrior 2 or 4). I mean, guys, at what point do these things get to actually BE MECHS? As much as people like to say "Walking tanks", its because mechs are feared machines of war, not because they're non-agile machines with no human features. Mechs have hands, they can jump, they can kick, they can climb, they have very fine motor control over all the myomer muscles in their bodies. They are very much like mechanized humans.

Mechwarrior is a simulation, of that there is no doubt, but to try so hard to force it to abide by real life is an attempt to effectively nullify Battletech lore. Mechs are terrifying machines of war because of their many capabilities, not because they are bags of guns like so many would have you believe. They have arms, legs, heads, and muscles. They have intelligent learning computers. To have them only walk and never use their arms is an affront to their many awesome, and well thought out, capabilities.

I don't just want to see mechs use melee. I'd like to see the whole swath of Battlemech capabilities. We've already got charging, which I was giddy to see. I'd love to see mechs be able to pick objects up, perhaps for transportation. I'd love missions where you have to escort an important object through the map. Yes, I'd even like to see mechs be able to climb terrain. Mechs with missing arms should take longer to get up (lie down and try to get up without using your arms. Act like a heavy machine, too, so no throwing your weight around quickly). Of course, I want to see melee. It should be simple and straight forward. A kick would be directly in front and go right back down. A punch would be straight in front, just a hook, and right back down to the sides. The entire action should take around 1.5 seconds or so.

Overall, what I really want is not to see mechs relegated to some artificial idea of what I, or others, imagine mechs to be. No, I want mechs to be what they have always been and were created as. Just as in the techmanuals. Just as in the tabletop. Just as in the novels. Mechs are more than powerful machines of war; they are complex, intricate, powerful machines of war, and I would be thrilled to see MWO really, truly show them for what they have always been. MWO has already made me greatly happy in almost every regard to mechs, especially FlyingDebris' excellent artistic visions that truly represent what the mechs looked like in the imaginations of every fan, and I can't say just how happy it would make me to see melee. Not because I want to use it all the time, or because I want to see a light mech get obliterated by the kick of an Atlas, but because I want mechs to finally come into their own. To show the world that this isn't just some giant robot game, but this is Mechwarrior.

[Lycan]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

Right, you can't please everyone. I understand I might be in the minority, Im just expressing my opinion.

Very true. We're just trying to give you a bit more information in the hopes that it might change your opinion and/or see the idea in a new light.

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Being campy means something that is so extreme that it's distasteful and/or amusing. It's camp because it's silly, and hard to be believable.

Never heard of "camp" referring to something distasteful but it's all good. What I don't understand is how you can find the option of being able clock a mech, silly or unbelievable. I'm right there with you if the Mechwarior/Battletech version of melee combat was the fluid martial arts style of fighting that is seen in a lot of anime-genre games. But it's not. So you kind of lost me there.

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You're right. I admittedly have never played TT. What's important to note is that this is MechWarrior and not Battletech. MechWarrior is a registered trademark and BattleTech has said before that any games under the title MW are not official canon. The game isnt BattleTech Online it's MechWarrior Online. Just like MechAssault isnt MechWarrior, MechWarrior isn't Battletech. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've never heard that anything done under the "Mechwarrior" name was considered non-canon. Admittedly, I stopped playing the Mechwarrior video games after MW2 because they didn't feel like Battletech games to me so that could be why I missed it.

[Scanlon]

RA, Dude chill out. Im entitled to an opinion just like you. I wasnt being disrepsctful to anyone or their opinions. You dont have to attack me.

Edited by Scanlon, 29 March 2012 - 04:24 PM.

[Cathedral]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Melee in and of itself does not ruin immersion, camp does.

Look at these and tell me the feeling they convey to you


http://www.bing.com/...t=0&FORM=IDFRIR


http://www.sarna.net.../DragonKick.jpg

Pretty much the only impression that i got from that second image was that the Dragon was running full speed, jumped off a ledge and the other 'Mech just happened to be in the way. I see no 'camp' in this.

Edited by Cathedral, 29 March 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Rear Admiral]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

RA, Dude chill out. Im entitled to an opinion just like you. I wasnt being disrepsctful to anyone or their opinions. You dont have to attack me.

Not sure who this is directed at, but I didnt read any personal attacks on you. All i did was illustrate how your opinion on the matter has no merit, IMO.

And really, you shouldnt call people out for non existent personal attacks on yourself and then turn around and launch one of your own. Very mature.

edit: ok, for some reason the text in the thread did not include my inititals, but the quote did. Either way, my point stands. Have a nice day, Scanlon.

Edited by Rear Admiral, 29 March 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[squat251]

instead of a punch or kick button i would rather just have the collision of say a torso rotation with the arm connecting to the opponent count and do damage, kicking seems impractical since even if it is a stomp, its going to throw off your balance arms or not.

besides, if we didnt have arms then there wouldnt be anything fun to blow off other than legs.. and legs arent as fun.

and its got nothing to do with my lack of tabletop knowlege, this isnt tabletop, this is a video game somethings will break balance in a videogame especially an fps things need to happen quickly far quicker than rolling dice and argueing over the results (never played BT but did play a little D&D) this is a game based off the table top, but there is no need to pull in things that will not make the game better for everyone. while I'm sure the table top guys would love to see the muscles of the mechs doing things, that is not what has been represented by the past games (which took up more time of my youth than i would like to admit) i think a happy medium should be found between walking tanks and mechanized 50+ton humans. charging is good, since that is a tactic i liked to employ in past games, and hopefully unlike those games it knocks the opponent down (provided i out size them, ofcourse) however grappling and things like this dont fit in a fast paced fps.

my $.02

Edited by squat251, 29 March 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Scanlon]

RA, deriding my opinions mercilessly and comparing me to selfish child implying that I am inferior to you, I took as an 'existing' attack.

Edited by Scanlon, 29 March 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[Urist McPilot]

What you guys are doing is comparing (modern day combat) to (mech combat) they are both very different. For example even with the newest body armor it is highly unlikely you will take more than 2 to three bursts and still be able to move. Whereas in a mech the guy is wearing a suit of armor that takes at least 2 shots from a PPC or two to take down (about 14 seconds) while he can move at up to 120 km an hour. The result being that if he wanted to get close he probably would (saying that he isnt already damaged or you didnt leg him)

So in my opinion a melee build on a mech than what you guys (scanlon) especially is saying which is i put a guy weilding a broadsword up against a modern day infantry men and he wasn't effective, so therefor mechs will not be either. It is a different combat system with different rules and much more survivability so applying modern day combat tactics JUST WONT WORK!

Just my 2 cents

Edited by Urist McPilot, 29 March 2012 - 04:48 PM.

[ZnSeventeen]

squat251, on 29 March 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

instead of a punch or kick button i would rather just have the collision of say a torso rotation with the arm connecting to the opponent count and do damage, kicking seems impractical since even if it is a stomp, its going to throw off your balance arms or not.

besides, if we didnt have arms then there wouldnt be anything fun to blow off other than legs.. and legs arent as fun.

Well, at least in the table top, missing a kick did throw off your balance. In real life kicking throws off your balance. It happens.

I think physical combat should be minimal, it ruins immersion if it is not an option. If a person designs a mech with limbs, they surely can spend twenty minutes coding in a basic kick, or a basic punch.

Physical combat has been a part of mechanical warfare since 8 September 1914, when a pilot rammed another, killing both. If WWI pilots could do it, I expect mechs could too. (Note that it was desperate.)

Edited by ZnSeventeen, 29 March 2012 - 04:52 PM.

[Scanlon]

I have already conceded that certain aspects of melee combat would be a good addition to the game, and according to Dev Blog are going to be implemented (charging/DFA).

I only disparage camp like combat that in my humble opinion are antiquated, yet zealosly defended due to their roots in the game that only put it there for the sake of being more dynamic but at the cost of realism. But realism doesn't really matter, its a fun TT fantasy game. Fantasy and Sim are like opposites to me.

Thank you enlightening me that what you aim for is a simulation of a fantasy game. I now see It is me who doesn't belong, not melee combat. Goodbye and enjoy the game.

[Rear Admiral]

Scanlon-

I apologize if i offended you in any way. I did not mean to imply that you were 'inferior' to me. Lord knows, i wouldn't imply that about anybody. I simply feel that people that pass judgement on a thing without at the very least trying it out have no basis to offer constructive criticism about that thing. Furthermore, when the thing you are passing judgement on is a long standing, important component of the overall whole, it further disqualifies said opinions. experience, knowledge, perspective, and forethought are key ingredients to a well thought out idea that you want others to take seriously. When your opinions lack those qualities, it just sounds like you are a troll.

Now if you had stated your experience w/ the TT rules and how you didnt like the melee rules, and WHY, instead of just saying, essentially, 'melee is stupid' i may have been a little more sensitive to your viewpoint.

At any rate, it was nothing personal and sorry if you were offended.


edit: grammar, punctuation

Edited by Rear Admiral, 29 March 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 08:41 AM, said:

Theres a reason melee combat has fallen out of favor. Its because its not better. You dont see SWAT teams or Forced entry teams bringing swords and axes, they bring guns.

BattleMechs that were designed in the 80's and 90's overlooked this sort of thing because it's a fantasy setting, that was pretty much trying to appeal to children. We're grown ups now, and when youre creating or participating in a combat simulator the point is immersion and realism, silly things like swords should go right into the dumpster because they work against the goal.

Look at riot cops. I see a lot more shields, helmets, and truncheons than rifles. Standard police still carry batons or billy clubs. But "swords and axes" just aren't going to come into that line of work, since the focus of their duties is to try to subdue subject, not stab them.

But looking around the world, militaries may all issue assault rifles, but they also train hand to hand and give troops either bayonets or large "fighting knives". The machete still remains an active weapon in third world conflicts, despite the plethora of Kalashminov rifles floating around in the wake of the Cold War era. But no one with any sense is charging accross the battlefield with them, they tend to be things that come out in confined quarters, where they remain awfully damn effective. Melee combat is simply more effective in its appropriate range - getting to that range is just very difficult when confronted by effective projectile weapons on an open battlefield.

In regards to 'mech combat, I generally see lugging around a five ton hatchet as a waste of loadout weight, but I can see where it can be useful in certain mission roles, and in gladiatorial fights. Adding melee to the game is not and should not be the top priority ahead of launch, but I can see it having a place - if for nothing else than keeping people honest during close-range battles. As it is, I'm expecting that a charging Atlas is the sort of thing everyone is going to want to get the hell out of the way of, and rightly so!

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Because it's a simulator. Its about immersion. Which means if I cant believe my surroundings then im not immersed. Ergo the game has failed it's goal.

Having 'mechs with articulated limbs that are incapable of interacting with my surroundings seems like more of a stretch to me... I'm not seeing any added immersion in "my giant war robot isn't allowed to touch anything."

mwhighlander, on 29 March 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

I myself am not a fan of melee whatsoever. Having said that, it is also clearly within lore.

If someone tries to get a swing on me, I'll just aim for the weapon, leg and walk away.

<Insert counter argument that said melee user wouldn't allow me to just shoot them>

Well, nothing wrong with returning fire at close range, and it's certainly Hoyle. But I don't see how you'll have time to torso twist, target the swinging weapon, fire, torso twist again, target the legs, and fire a second time, in less time that it takes for your opponent to reach out and smack you, especially if he's the first mover. It would require you to move at least 4x faster than your opponent, and have extremely quick weapon cycle times.