129 replies to this topic

[Fetladral]

I think some of the mechs designed for melee can do some acrobatics like alot of jumping not just jump jets but even then its not fancy like karate or anything. Of course I could be completely wrong about that and it might depend more on the pilot than the mech itself. I don't know how accurate the dark age books are when it comes to canon. only have 2 and they are only ok most of the otheres don't even sound interesting. Theres also the fact that MOST of the melee specialty mechs in BT are mediums not sure if there are lights, but there are almost no heavies or assaults. So i'd want heavies and assaults to be able to punch or maybe grab a nearby lamp post and smack a hatchetman since most of your weapons will be useless

Edited by Fetladral, 29 March 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Watchit]

Battlemechs are made to simulate organic movement, hence the skeletal structure, actuators (joints), and myomer (muscles), so it would make sense to emulate the human structure for a roughly humanoid mech, at least for balancing purposes. An arm would make more sense than a useless counterweight, which would defeat the purpose of using a humanoid form, the purpose being versatility.

[Moosehead]

Paladin1, on 29 March 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

Then by definition, earlier MW games have failed in their goal of immersion because they have not included melee combat, which is part of the immersion into the Battletech Universe as a whole, your thoughts on the subject aside.

immersion failed with legging resulting in pogomechs.

That's a far worse sin to physics than a punch/punch/kick from an Atlas

[Saurok]

Orzorn, on 29 March 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

There seems to be a gross amount of exaggeration and hypocrisy within this thread.

Melee combat has ALWAYS been a part of EVERY aspect of the Battletech universe, from the novels to the tabletop to the mechs themselves (hellooooooooooo Axman). Yes, I understand that Mechwarrior is not Battletech, but I'll be damned if it isn't as close as it can get.

Some folks are exaggerating about melee, claiming its like Gundam or something similar. It is not mech-fu. It is far more like mech boxing. Simple punches and kicks. Very straight foward. The ONLY reason it manages to seem "campy" is because most of the art depicting melee has them doing some rather over the top things, with the exception of the Atlas punching the Masakari. THAT is how it should be (of course, directly destroying the cockpit would take a lot of luck).

Some folks are also opposing it because it "breaks immersion" and because Mechwarrior is a "simulation". Lets get some things straight here. What is Mechwarrior a simulation of? The Battletech universe with respect to mechs. Its immersion breaking to have melee, but not DFAs, charging, or man-made lightning (as Stackpoll would call it)? Why is it not immersion breaking to see a mech land on another mech's head and not topple over? It always made me laugh to see DFAs in Mechwarrior 4, because the attacking mech would just sort of bounce of their head instead of buckling from the now very awkard position of a 100 ton machine standing on top of another's shoulders. On a side note, I would they handle that situation well with the physics system. I'd love to see a DFA'ing mech just flip end over end because of the maneuver being so odd.

Let's look at it from the other side of the fence, as well. How do you think it makes tabletop fans to not see melee in EVERY Mechwarrior game? I love the Axman and Hatchetman. I'd love to see a Kodiak use its claws, the Lyran's get their hatchets, and I'm sure the Draconic dudes would love to be able to use their honorable No-Dachis.

I think some people take the "walking tank" mentality too far. People argue against hands on mechs. People argue against humanoid shaped mechs. People argue against melee. People argue against mechs being able to use their hands or, hell, I've seen a guy argue that he doesn't think mechs should be able to move their arms at all (only up or down like Mechwarrior 2 or 4). I mean, guys, at what point do these things get to actually BE MECHS? As much as people like to say "Walking tanks", its because mechs are feared machines of war, not because they're non-agile machines with no human features. Mechs have hands, they can jump, they can kick, they can climb, they have very fine motor control over all the myomer muscles in their bodies. They are very much like mechanized humans.

Mechwarrior is a simulation, of that there is no doubt, but to try so hard to force it to abide by real life is an attempt to effectively nullify Battletech lore. Mechs are terrifying machines of war because of their many capabilities, not because they are bags of guns like so many would have you believe. They have arms, legs, heads, and muscles. They have intelligent learning computers. To have them only walk and never use their arms is an affront to their many awesome, and well thought out, capabilities.

I don't just want to see mechs use melee. I'd like to see the whole swath of Battlemech capabilities. We've already got charging, which I was giddy to see. I'd love to see mechs be able to pick objects up, perhaps for transportation. I'd love missions where you have to escort an important object through the map. Yes, I'd even like to see mechs be able to climb terrain. Mechs with missing arms should take longer to get up (lie down and try to get up without using your arms. Act like a heavy machine, too, so no throwing your weight around quickly). Of course, I want to see melee. It should be simple and straight forward. A kick would be directly in front and go right back down. A punch would be straight in front, just a hook, and right back down to the sides. The entire action should take around 1.5 seconds or so.

Overall, what I really want is not to see mechs relegated to some artificial idea of what I, or others, imagine mechs to be. No, I want mechs to be what they have always been and were created as. Just as in the techmanuals. Just as in the tabletop. Just as in the novels. Mechs are more than powerful machines of war; they are complex, intricate, powerful machines of war, and I would be thrilled to see MWO really, truly show them for what they have always been. MWO has already made me greatly happy in almost every regard to mechs, especially FlyingDebris' excellent artistic visions that truly represent what the mechs looked like in the imaginations of every fan, and I can't say just how happy it would make me to see melee. Not because I want to use it all the time, or because I want to see a light mech get obliterated by the kick of an Atlas, but because I want mechs to finally come into their own. To show the world that this isn't just some giant robot game, but this is Mechwarrior.

My thoughts exactly.

MechWarrior is made to simulate Battletech, not some uber realistic giant robot setting (realistic giant robot simulation? think about it)

Edited by Saurok, 29 March 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Grithis]

Scanlon, on 29 March 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

You're right. I admittedly have never played TT. What's important to note is that this is MechWarrior and not Battletech. MechWarrior is a registered trademark and BattleTech has said before that any games under the title MW are not official canon. The game isnt BattleTech Online it's MechWarrior Online. Just like MechAssault isnt MechWarrior, MechWarrior isn't Battletech. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I actually have to agree, there. It is MW, not BT. MW has always been slightly different from BT. Mech Assault, (hiss), was at times wildly so.

The devs of MWO have said, though, that they will be using the BT canon to influence the direction of the game, as well as the input of the players. This being said, I think both sides, MW and BT, can expect to see some differences.

[Lycan]

Moosehead, on 29 March 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

immersion failed with legging resulting in pogomechs.

That's a far worse sin to physics than a punch/punch/kick from an Atlas

It's also immersion destroying when the mech counts as "Destroyed" when one of it's legs is blown off.

Grithis, on 29 March 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

<snip> It is MW, not BT <snip>

And you wouldn't have "Mechwarrior" without "Battletech". What do you think a Mechwarrior game is suppose to be simulating if not Battletech? The whole reason Mechwarrior even exists is because it's based off Battletech. In trying to remove "Battletech" from "Mechwarrior" you're just turning the game into "Generic Giant Robot Death Match Game X".

And if you really want to get down to the brass tacks of things, PGI should be making an MMO Sci-Fi game were we have full avatars and a persistant world we were can walk around in, etc because that's what you'd need if you really want to call it "Mechwarrior" because all that name refers to is the pilots inside the mech.

So no, Mechwarrior IS Battletech.

Edited by Lycan, 29 March 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[The Cheese]

Is this really a big deal? If something's going to get punched or kicked, it's not going to happen all that often.

You're not going to see a commando going around punching things. As funny as it would be to see a lance of them going around beating on other mechs, it's not going to be useful against anything but other lights. Same for any other weight class. If your fist is smaller, and you have less armour, you're better off running the hell away, lest you get your **** ruined. You're not going to win that fight.

Likewise, you'd imagine that an Atlas would do a ton of damage if it punched or kicked something, true, but it has to CATCH the target first. Not to mention that the other mech has to be at least tall enough to get punched. It might kick, you say? Well the pilot of that smaller mech deserves it, if they're trying to take on an atlas by moving at a snail's pace from right in front of the damn thing.

I was in the "I don't care" camp, when it came to melee, but now, I'd love to see it. If it shuts up these "RAWR GOTTA FOLLOW CANON!!" people, and the "RAWR I HATE MELEE!!" people see that they're not gonna get hit by it unless they're stupid, then it's worth it.

[Siilk]

Lycan, on 29 March 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

So no, Mechwarrior IS Battletech.

Yes, MW based on BT. Not MW is not BT. MW series always had significant differences from TT and general BT lore. It has it's own distinctive style with mech portrayed more like a walking tanks rather than fully articulated humanoid robots. And you know what? It's better that way. MW is a lot more believable and realistic than TT, lack of melee being one of important factors here. So, you can think of me as a big MW fan, but not really a TT fan. And my desire is for MWO to preserve the spirit of MW, not TT.

Oppi, on 29 March 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

It's not that hard to see why people who pilot Clan Mechs don't want melee in. They'd be at a disadvantage.

I couldn't care less about "disadvantage". If you simly seek "free lunch"-style advantage in melee, I would be totally cool if all hand-equipped mechs would have "free" small lasers of the same total damage of TT "atlas bitchslap". I'm really that cool with any advantage melee might bring. It's ruining sim style with fistfights I'm concerned about. Oh, BTW, Clan mechs do look more plausible in general, as they are designed in later years, when Fasa stopped with ripping off anime designs and tried to came up with something unique.

The Cheese, on 30 March 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

You're not going to see a commando going around punching things.

The problem is, you'll see a huge amount of Commandos, Centurions, Dragons, Awesomes and Atlases punching air or scenery features around them, you know just for $h1ts and giggles. And this would definitely ruin the immersion of the game.

In short, I don't want MWO to end up being glorified WH40k. I can appreciate this kind of fiction but it does not match MW style which, like it or not, is quite different from TT style.

Edited by Siilk, 30 March 2012 - 12:50 AM.

[Volthorne]

Siilk, have you been paying attention to ANYTHING that's been said? MechWarrior = term for pilot *IN* the battlemech. Without BattleTech, there is no MechWarrior, simply because they'd all be sitting on their *****, twiddling their thumbs.

The reasons why MW games have never featured melee is because of coding limitations, and hardware limitations. A lot of those games would have been made back when Quake (original) would have been considered "decent" in both graphics and scripting departments (no melee attacks there either). And when a series gets rolling, devs don't like to shake things up a lot, meaning that once melee attacks were in fact possible to code, the devs probably went "well, it wasn't in the last game..." and forced the digital incarnation of BT into this bullshit rut that it's in right now. I also realize that a lot of people hate melee due to the garbage that came from the CoD, Battlefield and MoH franchises, where taking a knife to the toe meant instant death (Seriously, **** CoD, MoH and Battlefield for that useless contribution).

When melee gets added (Not a question of "if" anymore, so much debate sparked in this thread) expect it to be like actual kick-boxing, but limited to jabs and shin-kicks, not just "I poked you, you're dead". Direct-fire support lining up a shot on a friend? punch him in the back of the head to mess with his aiming. Ambushed by an Hunchback while piloting a Commando? Run around behind him and kick a leg out from under him (and then run the hell away as fast as you can, provided you're still alive to make the kick).

[Titus Pullo XIII]

I always belived that Mech Hands were for cracking open a nice, cold, Mech-sized beer at the end of an engagement.

[The Cheese]

Siilk, on 30 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

The problem is, you'll see a huge amount of Commandos, Centurions, Dragons, Awesomes and Atlases punching air or scenery features around them, you know just for $h1ts and giggles. And this would definitely ruin the immersion of the game.

You're also going to see people trying to DFA trees. Should we also not include jump jets?

Point is, any game feature can be abused for ***** and giggles.

[Titus Pullo XIII]

I seriously doubt there will be any form of unconventional combat requiring hands/fists/fingers (they call 'em fingers but I never seem them fing!).

[Tuhalu]

Siilk, on 30 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

In short, I don't want MWO to end up being glorified WH40k. I can appreciate this kind of fiction but it does not match MW style which, like it or not, is quite different from TT style.

Now you're just making irrational decisions based on your fear.

In WH40K, there are guys that are simply built for melee and balance that by being completely useless at long range. In Battletech/Mechwarrior, there are some guys that are built to be slightly better at melee IF they manage to get into it, but are still quite OK at longer ranges.

IF they include punches and kicks and hatchets and swords, all they need to do is make them have a 10 second cooldown (lorewise, so the myomer bundles don't overheat from impact stresses or something). Then it would still be fine. And I imagine you'd have a hard time firing any weapons at all while your mech goes through the punching or kicking motions. And there would be some mechs that just couldn't punch (Jenner, Stalker, Catapult, etc).

[Titus Pullo XIII]

I believe our friend was referencing Titans. There is a rather large difference between Mechs and Titans.

[Kifferson von doober]

fatcat01, on 29 March 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Everyone always trying to ruin my day with ridiculous things like facts and knowledge

Does'nt is also affect your ability to get back up if you get knocked over?
Actually i'm really looking foreward to the animation for an urbie trying to right itself, Giggle.
You guys have heard of cow tipping right? LOL

[Kifferson von doober]

I'm still on the not bothering to reattach savered arms topic here mind, just read it back and realised that i'm making less sense than usual.

[Tuhalu]

Titus Pullo XIII, on 30 March 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

I believe our friend was referencing Titans. There is a rather large difference between Mechs and Titans.

Besides Titans being rather larger than Mechs you mean? Yeah, that's an even sillier comparison.

The bottom line is, melee weapons and attacks are useful in battletech/mechwarrior, but they are by no means one-shot wonders in most cases.

[Oppi]

Siilk, on 30 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

It's ruining sim style with fistfights I'm concerned about.

Not having melee attacks ruins the sim style, because in a "real" mech fight you just would not frikkin stand there and do nothing if your heat score was too high to shoot and you had the option to just shove your arm in someones cockpit instead. This would probably cost your life. Why can't you get it ? It's not that hard to understand.

Quote

Oh, BTW, Clan mechs do look more plausible in general,

I have to admit that you just made my day. This made me laugh very hard. Do you honestly think that this insane contraption that places the cockpit in front of everything else, making the pilot a meatshield for the reactor, having no plausible way of reloading the missile pods (which are perfect targets for snipers btw, because they stand out so much and will cause a fine ammo explosion when hit) and would constantly keep hitting it's hip and legs with it's own arms if the torso was turned more than about 20 degrees looks more plausible than a warhammer, which is one of the designs ripped off some anime stuff that you were just talking about ? This is ridiculous.

btw : Nearly every second Clan mech shares one or two of the issues I just pointed out at the Timberwolf example.

Edited by Oppi, 30 March 2012 - 05:22 AM.

[AlanEsh]

Grithis, on 29 March 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

... beating my opponent with a rubber chicken while wearing a Jello mold on my head and singing "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee" ...

I want to play that game! Let me know when it is ready for beta.

[Titus Pullo XIII]

Tuhalu, on 30 March 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

Besides Titans being rather larger than Mechs you mean? Yeah, that's an even sillier comparison.

Well, there is a significant difference between a war engine that can simply step on an Atlas or Daishi. In that kind of fight the Mech might as well be an Elemental.

Edited by Titus Pullo XIII, 30 March 2012 - 05:38 AM.