265 replies to this topic

[Requital]

NameTheftVictim, on 01 April 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Well, considering the fact that MWO is going to have 'Mech customization and OmniMechs are canonically Clan tech...

I am pretty sure I have read books about IS mechs being customized and I am pretty sure that the IS developed omni mechs...

*shrug*

EDIT: I know the Clans sparked the majority of the Omnimech development in the IS...but from what I understand chassis like the Bushwhacker and Owens, ect. were developed in the IS, and from what I have seen, we will be following a timeline and will not be seeing those chassis at game launch. While most of the mech customization I have read about occurred in the merc units, I seem to remember reading about IS units changing/modifying their mechs.

Edited by Requital, 01 April 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

All this being said, what about merc groups who demand that they be allowed to name themselves "Clan Black Sheep" ("they were held in secret away from the other clans" ) or "Clan Stomp" because that is what they want to do and have since 1995 or whatever. There is some failure in players coming into MWO to appreciate that while this is indeed a game and they have played lots of them, it has something the previous games they have played do not have - established history (albiet fictional). And the game is set to begin in 3049 gametime when there is an established status quo and storyline - something that will need to be considered heavily until after 3051 begins.

The game is not yet at a point where players can just start doing what they want willy-nilly.

[StandingCow]

I think the lore should be used as a guide, but not something to have them chained to...

[Requital]

Gremlich Johns, on 01 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

All this being said, what about merc groups who demand that they be allowed to name themselves "Clan Black Sheep" ("they were held in secret away from the other clans" ) or "Clan Stomp" because that is what they want to do and have since 1995 or whatever. There is some failure in players coming into MWO to appreciate that while this is indeed a game and they have played lots of them, it has something the previous games they have played do not have - established history (albiet fictional). And the game is set to begin in 3049 gametime when there is an established status quo and storyline - something that will need to be considered heavily until after 3051 begins.

The game is not yet at a point where players can just start doing what they want willy-nilly.

agreed, that is why most of the lore needs to be followed. I like this game not just because of mech combat, but also because of the games backdrop...the moment the back drop is gone and people can rewrite history to suite their own preference...it isn't mechwarrior anymore, it is mech flight sim in a player driven universe.

Minor change to make the game playable and balanced, great! skirmishes on border worlds and periphery territories that actually change hands back and forth, slightly expanding and contracting the great houses territory, great! rewriting battletech to make some players happy? nah.

[Gremlich Johns]

Requital, on 01 April 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

I am pretty sure I have read books about IS mechs being customized and I am pretty sure that the IS developed omni mechs...

*shrug*

The IS did not develop Omni-mechs, the Clans did. The IS could not integrate Clan-tech easily into their own designs and so decided to adapt their own tech to their existing chassis, but not until after the Clans were stopped in 3052. You could certainly argue that the IS research just allowed them to create more variants of their existing mechs - just not Omni-mechs in the Clan sense which were designed from the ground up to be plug-and-play. Yes, splitting hairs, but semantically, it is important. In the IS, the term "omni" was just convenient to use and so they did.

The vast majority of true IS "Omni"-mechs were not seen until the 3060s with serious research not being conducted until after 3053. Most sincere BT-fans do not observe much after 3057

[GrimFist]

It really needs to be someplace inbetween the first 2 choices.

When i doubt refer to BT canon. When it is reasonable to make a change for community all the better.

[El Loco]

Lucifer Black, on 01 April 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

@El Loco, 'Lore dictates events already'.

Why? Why should it? What does this add to the game? Why should I care about fighting prescripted conflicts regardless of the side I'm on? What's the incentive? These are questions that seem to only get a quasi-religious answer of 'the Lore is the Law'.

There already is predetermination to some extend because of the history written into the universe. Because of the Kentares Massacre during the 1st Succession War Houses Kurita and Davion are fighting almost continuously. Because of the 4th Succession War House Liao wants to take revenge on House Davion. If you wanted to fundamentally break with lore, you would have to re-write the history of the IS. If you have the time to do that... help yourself.

Lucifer Black, on 01 April 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

I accept your criticisms as far as my poll question writing goes, but I think the intent was pretty clear. So far, I'm still getting no answer to my original question that provides a satisfactory reason for MWO to be hidebound to the musings of TT fanatics who already have a TT canon faithful game to play; namely Battletech.

And you haven't stated what you mean by "loosely".
I'm not a lore fanatic... I like the history told in the BT universe, yes, but I also would love to play a part in the major events to come. I would like to have full access to tech level 2 sooner than later, but that's just natural and comes with knowing what is to come. Nevertheless, I'm happy that we have a rich history to base MWO on, this makes the game more immersive.

And please let's not forget, this is the first take on the franchise in a decade... there all kinds of players to please. TT fanatics, mecha fans, MW-jocks, MA-jocks, FPS kiddies, and so on. All want a game that fulfils their expectations, but let's be realistic: It won't. And people with deep knowledge of the lore will always appear to have the strongest opinions, because they have "facts" to back up their arguments.

[Requital]

Gremlich Johns, on 01 April 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

The IS did not develop Omni-mechs, the Clans did.

did you skip over the EDIT? (I figured someone would mis interpret that statement, so I put an edit in 14 minutes before you "quoted" me)

I know the IS did not start omnimech technology. The did develop mechs later that were similar to a modular design. Which this is a non issue, because the mechs we have been seeing for release at the start of this game are not any of the IS modular mechs in question.

I was simply trying to point out that later on, the IS did use modular designs, and prior to that, people had swapped weapons and parts. That doesn't mean it was common place, but it doesn't defy anything in lore.

Again, I personally have no problems with minor changes like this(pilots did not seem to have custom mechs in most of the BT lore, but it did happen sometimes, so it isn't a huge issue). I don't mind someone using a weapon on a mech that should not have been there, and i do not have a problem with a border world changing hands. I do have an issue with a bushwhacker being released at game lauch, and I have a problem with a capitol world changing hands outside of lore. I fail to see how that viewpoint is wrong...it allows for some player driven content, but keeps the lore on track.

[Silent]

Kaemon, on 01 April 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

What if the Goon swarm (or similar group) show up and attempt to throw the game out of balance?

Hard to say, we really don't know until we see how they are going to implement some of these major events.

Just my limited observation, but I am willing to bet a good number of goons will be joining up with the Free Rasalhague Republic, or at least hanging in or around their areas in order to try and help the space vikings keep the space knights at bay. It'd be unfortunate if it isn't possible in game to at least hold off the invasion because of lore or whatever.

[Gremlich Johns]

Requital, on 01 April 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Again, I personally have no problems with minor changes like this(pilots did not seem to have custom mechs in most of the BT lore, but it did happen sometimes, so it isn't a huge issue). I don't mind someone using a weapon on a mech that should not have been there, and i do not have a problem with a border world changing hands. I do have an issue with a bushwhacker being released at game lauch, and I have a problem with a capitol world changing hands outside of lore. I fail to see how that viewpoint is wrong...it allows for some player driven content, but keeps the lore on track.

okies!
(I was writing other things at the time (simultaneously) as well so missed the edit)

[HeIIequin]

The more I think on it, the more I think that breaking away from the lore and letting players decide everything is more trouble than its worth. Just give us a bunch of planets to battle over, and make that the focus of the game, with the canon fluff as a nice background people can immerse themselves with. This setup will be much easier for Piranha to make, which is no doubt why they chose it.

Why is the conclusion that just because they're outer periphery worlds, they won't be fun to try and conquer and hold? Don't expect the moon, and maybe you'll enjoy yourself more. Hell, I'd REALLY love a MW game with insane expectations too, but I know I won't ever get that game, and I'm okay with it.

Edited by HeIIequin, 01 April 2012 - 11:15 AM.

[ice trey]

Losing a planet here or there on a border is not a huge deal. Rigid following of those dime-a-dozen planets is irrelevant.

However, losing major district capitals and factory worlds would heavily upset the balance of the game, and I never want to hear about a successor state being completely overrun by another faction.

Like has been said, there's a canon that needs to be followed, or all the technologies and plot that follows gets usurped.

Fluctuation of the borders is no big issue, it's when stuff pivotal to the plot gets changed that something is wrong.

[FaustianQ]

Arctic Fox, on 01 April 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

That's my point. Allowing a player group to singlehandedly hold large areas of the map would only be possible if the players were the only deciding factor in the BattleTech universe, since logically something like that would involve significant amounts of non-player forces which would (nearly certainly) not make an appearance in the game. So either you're letting the players have free reign in major events and more or less ignore the existence of massive parts of the BattleTech universe, or you give the players a smaller part, able to influence things like border placement but not completely change the entire universe.

And you missed my point. Under the current system, border worlds are were all the actual fun will be, because they aren't scripted, and can change hands, and do require a level of acumen, strength and charisma to hold. What ends up happening is the faction players end up in a circle jerk with canon and are held to it, while the mercs basically ignore lore - it's not important to them, it doesn't influence them, might as well not even be a mechwarrior game to them.

So unless you allow players to partake in faction events and have them deal with the consequences (The clans dominate the IS for instance) while be guiding by lore, or you get either mostly merc corp player who simply ignore the fact it's a mechwarrior game, or you get players running wild and a game that can't keep to cannon.

Silent, on 01 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Just my limited observation, but I am willing to bet a good number of goons will be joining up with the Free Rasalhague Republic, or at least hanging in or around their areas in order to try and help the space vikings keep the space knights at bay. It'd be unfortunate if it isn't possible in game to at least hold off the invasion because of lore or whatever.

This! This is what I am talking about! Why do people seem set in the idea that certain things have to happen specific way? Why would anyone play as clan knowing that nothing they do is worth their time, if it's predetermined they don't even have to show up to play, all that territory is given to them! This isn't about giving the FRR a chance, it's actually about making the existence of the FRR meaningful to more then cannon and to make the clans work for their territory.

HeIIequin, on 01 April 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

The more I think on it, the more I think that breaking away from the lore and letting players decide everything is more trouble than its worth. Just give us a bunch of planets to battle over, and make that the focus of the game, with the canon fluff as a nice background people can immerse themselves with. This setup will be much easier for Piranha to make, which is no doubt why they chose it.

Why bother fighting over planets at all? Just make the entire game a drop in multiplayer based on Battletech. Why bother going the length to make the IS conquerable if it means nothing?

No one is asking for us to decide everything, ala EVE, but if you don't let players actually influence events then there is really no point to it, it's not a game, it's a novel. Yay, I am a Davion, so when FedCom breaks up I suppose I should just deal with it - why bother fighting for it if it's predetermined. In fact, I am not so much a part of my faction, since I am not actually partaking in it, but am as much an outsider as any merc or lone wolf.

And I think there is some confusion - I am not asking any particular player to have influence, I am asking for faction groups to have influence, I am asking for some interaction between mercs and factions so they don't exist in separate universes essentially. The way the canon diehards seem to want it, the whole game is on rails and everyone is going to pretend that the IS map somehow has actual meaning to the game.

[Moosehead]

Silent, on 01 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Just my limited observation, but I am willing to bet a good number of goons will be joining up with the Free Rasalhague Republic, or at least hanging in or around their areas in order to try and help the space vikings keep the space knights at bay. It'd be unfortunate if it isn't possible in game to at least hold off the invasion because of lore or whatever.

A 'save the FRR' campaign may be a doomed effort, but if enough players sign up for that attempt, and do well, why should that effort be for nothing?

Things shouldn't be on rails to that extent. There would still be a Rasalhague Dominion in the future, but more FRR than GB in flavor

[HeIIequin]

I get you Faustian, and what I meant by not letting players determine everything was in regard to 'no restrictions'. That is a bad thing. I fully expect at some point that Piranha may contemplate actually adding in a more complex conquest system than what they currently have (which doesn't involve drastic changes to lore), but in the end I still don't see how just fighting for periphery worlds won't be fun in any way. The game is, first and foremost, about being a mech pilot blowing things up, (and I'm pretty sure that's how the majority of MWO players will see it). Everything after that is gravy.

TLDR: people just need to be happy with not being able to conquer the whole galaxy. Just do your best to try and conquer the worlds they let us. Even that might end up being difficult enough without having to conquer a bajillion more planets.

Edited by HeIIequin, 01 April 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

if player-faction battles have no impact, why play at all with a story? MWO is not in and of itself canon. Its just the current iteration, the core of the Btech lore is safely locked in source books, novels, scenario paks etc. If everything in MWO is predetermined, then why would anyone care about any particular victory or defeat? Why should I throw myself into the defense of Twycross, if it's going to fall? my opponents don't actually earn this victory either, it's ceded to them by plot fiat.

I say having a malleable universe will lead to some exciting results, and interesting back-and-forth between factions. Nowhere does anyone say that whole factions should be overrun, but following canon to the letter takes a huge amount of player agency out of the equation, and remember MWO is a game not a book/comic/movie, player impact is expected.

[Silent]

Yeah, it would really only be a doomed effort if we weren't allowed to push back and try and keep the Clans from gaining ground, I am sure it would be inevitable that the FRR would be overtaken at some point but if we could hold them back for a period and annoy them that would be great. If the worlds are just given to the Clans based on the canon timeline then what's the point of even trying to fight back? Just sit there and wait to go Ghost Bear or something.

Edited by Silent, 01 April 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Morr]

In Truth i wouldn't mind a little bending of the fiction, The way i see this is as a Supplement to an overarching idea, A campaign for a overall game system. Don't get me wrong I love Battletech. But the problem with making it a carbon copy is that people know how things are going to play out, the FRR north side is going to be turned in to a bloody steel curtain waiting for the clan to attack. I think alot of DCMS and FC troops will be waiting more to Tangle with the clans then fight each other.

If they allow us to change history though. I have a feeling that a lot of Liao players will invade the St. Ives and crush it, then most likely they will rush many planets in the Federated Commonwealth. or the other will happen with the FC steam roll right over the Capellans.

Just bringing in people IE the players make it so that the map it's self will forever be changed, I really don't think that the map will stay like the canon map for every long if they allow us to change history, But i'd rather that then just goofing off until the clans arrive and then going to war.

But what do i know, I'm just a merc that will fight to eat.

[Requital]

I see nothing wrong with a good portion of space being up for grabs, but key worlds at key times being off limits. That is what will add depth to the game...a story.

What some of you are asking for is not a story. You want to go blow stuff up...to divide and conquer. You simply want a map you can control...and if it is only 25% of the map, that isn't enough...you want the whole thing. So tell me...what happens as you re-write history? form a crusade that conquers the galaxy? With each house that falls you get stronger, and the others get weaker? How much fun will it be when you have nothing left to fight over? You going to start an internal war?

Yeah, lets just plan on a good portion of the map being off limits(capitols, some production facilities, planets tied to upcoming lore events...like Vega or Tukayyid), while say 10%-20% of each houses territory and production can be lost. Sorry if I don't see a possible 60% gain or a 20% loss of what we had at the start as being "Worth playing for".

Basically, the majority of the people asking to influence everything just want to "make everything better"...they want to improve on this world everything is set in. That is fine, but supposedly, we are mechWARRIORS. We fight small scale battles for our house, for our unit, or for money. We are not generals, precentors, galaxy commanders, kahns, chancellors, governors, coordinators, princes, monarchs, archons, or anything else. We are not here to determine how the IS will be shaped, we are to fight. If you belong to a house, you fight for that house. Do not take it personally if you cannot single-handedly stop a clan invasion force, it is not your job to be a superhero or a strategist.

People do not like to be told about the inevitable, it is our nature to fight to create a better future for ourselves...but guess what, we all die...it is inevitable no matter how much you fight it. Who cares if some parts of this game are set in stone...there are very few MMO's where the plot is not. Knowing that I can bring glory and impact whatever unit I join is enough for me...no matter if that unit has 7 worlds or 700.

[mockingfox]

To all you lore-hounds out their stop and think. how will following the lore of MW/BT IN GAME make this a better game. you propose that players do not effect major events/battles/politics but only participate in smaller skirmishes and raids that happen around these events.

So since we cant take planets because what if we take a planet that is suppose to be taken in the lore by mister hero, what are we suppose to do?

are we just suppose to battle for... nothing? Since any victory/defeat we expierience MUST NOT effect the outcome of the lore in anyway for the lores sake what are we left with?

we are left with nothing, no control, no motivation. all we have is a little post and a small board change "hero took this planet back from the faction here" or "the clans took this planet.. to bad you couldnt be their to stop them"

the thought of this gimped MMO where players have no say/control on the world makes me want to puke. I want to fight for my faction and have them win because of me and my friends, I want to be the one to storm their capital and set fire to their homes, not some hero in a book.

so "Lore must come first" shouldnt be, "the Players should come first" should be. and *** **** it would be great if our actions are what mattered, not some storybook hero