265 replies to this topic

[Tadakuma]

Silent, on 01 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Just my limited observation, but I am willing to bet a good number of goons will be joining up with the Free Rasalhague Republic, or at least hanging in or around their areas in order to try and help the space vikings keep the space knights at bay. It'd be unfortunate if it isn't possible in game to at least hold off the invasion because of lore or whatever.

There is a couple of problem with this.

To start off with the idea that the FRR can hold of the clans doesn't makes any sense. In military terms they're a second rate power, while I can't dig out the exact figures (the information I have is from the mid 3050S) they're not as well equipped as the great houses and their military is smaller. In terms of military size I suspect that they were on par with The Taurian Concordant which means that they were respectable but couldn't survive a war with any of the 5 great house.

The second problem is that if the FRR does hold off the clan it creates a flow on issues with the history, this has the potential to substantially alter the timeline and you then have to workout other flow on effects.

As an example at the Clan Council to decide wither the clans would honour the Truce of Turkyyid the Ghost Bears supported the truce, As the third most successful invading clan their opinion was important in the final decision to abide by the truce.

In terms of writing, changing the battletech universe so there is no truce of Turkyyid or forcing the Jade Falcon or Smoke Jaguar to be a more warden is hard to justify and would be a fairly difficult task.

Hellequin put it, simply isn't worth the effort.

As a Side note (I assume the Goon refers to the Eve griefers who went around killing those large syndicate ships that took several years of real time effort to build) the idea that the game should voluntarily make itself vulnerable to that sort of behaviour is mystifying to me.

[Pvt Dancer]

Think of it like this... I like Game of Thrones, but I haven't read any of the books. Martain understood that the creators of the series will not follow the book line for line (see his Authors@Google interview). He accepted this and trusts them, but comes right out and says that the series is a different beast than his books. They could have, for example, not killed Eddard Stark.

Now, after I saw season 1, I read the first book. I did this because I wanted to 'enjoy the ride' of the series and not have any premonitions on how my mind pictured everything... I am glad, because I like Peter Dinklage's Imp more than the book's version of him. I will wait till the end of season 2 to read the next book, and go from there.

Now, the books are 'canon', but changes have already been made, changes I can live with, changes that will, for the most part, not drastically change the story of the books. I feel the same way with Mechwarrior and the BT Universe and MWO. We have to story that is 'canon', small changes will be made, but the butterfly effect will not happen because I helped to win a planet and thus the Clans never invade. At that point, if you throw away the world setting to forge a new one, your on the verge of saying 'I am just tromping around in giant robot death machines and what they are called doesn't matter to me, what the setting is doesn't matter to me, and thus calling it Battletech/Mechwarrior doesn't matter'.

You also end up with the Groundhogs day effect like in Planetside and World War II Online, where you are forced to do an artificial reset periodically because one faction 'won', so you just play over and over again for really nothing. Yay... how soon can we force the game to start over at 3049. No thank you.

Story is a story, if you don't like it, don't invest yourself into it. If you want to change the story, do it at home with your friends that may enjoy the ride. But as soon as you attempt to change the story and /force/ others to have to deal with it because /you/ don't like the canon, your being selfish. I don't care that you don't like the story, as much as you don't care that I /do/ like the story.

Edited by Pvt Dancer, 07 April 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[Cochise]

Should the lore be law? Sorta. Maybe. But not absulute.

Hopefully, MWO will balance a couple of things and make us spend all out $$$$
　
1. Gameplay always has to be numma one, (sometimes to the detriment of other things) which includes:

• atmosphere/immersion/physics
  
• mechanics
  
• interface (Mech controls, Mech labs, banking, corp setup, on and on)
  
• rules that make sense, rules governing the game, why stuff works the way it does - like canon, like physics
  
• maps and environment
  
• rewards/punishment for behaviors, balancing sticks vs carrots to drive behavior
  
  　

2. The Lore/Storyline

• Battletech Novels
  
• Tabletop Canon

3. The Mechwarrior Franchise

The Mechwarrior Franchise (which in this case I hope would be Mechwarrior 1, 2 & 3) although I don't think ANY of the Mech games sold less than a million units which is pretty darn good whether we all liked them that much or not.

Balancing those three things is a lot, and I think they are going to have to compromise on some things to get number 1 to its maximum potential. Hopefully, most will be happy with it. Not all people will. You can't hang some people even with a new rope.

Edited by Cochise, 07 April 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[3Xtr3m3]

MechWarrior Online
Product information
Type Computer game
Development Piranha Games
Publication information
Publisher Infinite Game Publishing
First published 2012
MSRP Free to Play
Content
Series MechWarrior


MechWarrior Online is an upcoming BattleTech-themed simulation game currently under development by Piranha Games and Smith & Tinker for Microsoft Windows. It was originally intended as a reboot of the MechWarrior series of computer games and announced as "MechWarrior" (frequently referred to as "MechWarrior 5" by fans, as the series had four previous installments).

As of yet, the game—announced as an online, free-to-play multi-player game—has not been launched.


When asked, BattleTech Line Developer Herbert A. Beas II stated in an official chat that the game would not be canonical per se[1]. Player factions (Houses and Merc Corps) will be fighting for worlds, therefore diverging from canonical lore. To maintain some essence of a canonical timeline, planets central to lore will be reserved by PGI's development staff so that major canonical events can be played out in the game's persistent setting.

That said, no video game iteration of MechWarrior has ever been considered canonical.


The above is from Sarna. Seems set in stone. Here is the link address http://www.sarna.net...Warrior_Online.

This should put the nail in the coffin on this chat of affecting Canonical history. Force of Law as it exists in real life says it is not going to happen. Anyone who says other wise is deluding themselves and anyone who listens to them. Please play the game as it is. Not how you want it to be.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Volthorne, on 07 April 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

Oh, f*** no, you did NOT just suggest limited-time campaign chapters. You realize that time-limited campaign chapters are the WORST possible thing you can do to an MMO? Number of reasons:
1) Sweet loot from campaign sections becomes unavailable after they finish (unbalanced distribution of fire power).
2) Newbies get jump-started to current campaign tech level, meaning you'd have pissed off vets because they had to WORK for their gear, and the same stuff just got handed out like candy to the new guy (this is NEVER acceptable in ANY circle of society).
3) Said chapters are often marketed as DLC/expansions, because f*** the F2P'ers, they can sit alone and forgotten in their lowest tier level 1 tech.

Actually I wasnt suggesting anthying of what you are flying off the handle about. I was suggesting chapters as a way to move the setting game through the classic timeline and events as it pertains to the backdrop of our battles.

As for the change in tech, I think its a given that someone who joines day 500 will have more tech to choose from as they advance than someone who joined day 1 before tech is added through normal updates.

I have a feeling though that you dislike time-limited campaign chapters where tech is no longer available from previous chapters and vets get screwed. On that I would definately agree with you.

[Tannhauser Gate]

3Xtr3m3, on 08 April 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

MechWarrior Online
Product information
Type Computer game
Development Piranha Games
Publication information
Publisher Infinite Game Publishing
First published 2012
MSRP Free to Play
Content
Series MechWarrior


MechWarrior Online is an upcoming BattleTech-themed simulation game currently under development by Piranha Games and Smith & Tinker for Microsoft Windows. It was originally intended as a reboot of the MechWarrior series of computer games and announced as "MechWarrior" (frequently referred to as "MechWarrior 5" by fans, as the series had four previous installments).

As of yet, the game—announced as an online, free-to-play multi-player game—has not been launched.


When asked, BattleTech Line Developer Herbert A. Beas II stated in an official chat that the game would not be canonical per se[1]. Player factions (Houses and Merc Corps) will be fighting for worlds, therefore diverging from canonical lore. To maintain some essence of a canonical timeline, planets central to lore will be reserved by PGI's development staff so that major canonical events can be played out in the game's persistent setting.

That said, no video game iteration of MechWarrior has ever been considered canonical.


The above is from Sarna. Seems set in stone. Here is the link address http://www.sarna.net...Warrior_Online.

This should put the nail in the coffin on this chat of affecting Canonical history. Force of Law as it exists in real life says it is not going to happen. Anyone who says other wise is deluding themselves and anyone who listens to them. Please play the game as it is. Not how you want it to be.

Actually that is from Wikipedia so it was written by fans and not PGI staff. I know because I wrote part of that. So you cant really use that as definitive proof of PGI's intent. We wont know until the game is launched or they tell us (which they often qualify it by saying that it could change at any time).

[Stone Profit]

This thread is full of people who say "They shouldn't stick to lore, because I don't care about lore and I shouldn't be forced to adhere to it" and to that I say how is that any different from those who say "lore should be adhered to because I care about it and shouldn't be unable to play canonically" If you don't care, why stick not stick to it? I have a good reason to stick to it, though. Its already a richly built, well laid out universe that has had countless hours of work put into it, and if you don't agree with it, well, I'm sure there's lots of things you wish were different in life, and you'll have to get over those too. But what makes me happy, truly happy, is that the Devs are going to stick to canon, and even have a BT writer on board to help, and all of those who selfishly want it the way they think it should be and screw anyone else will have to suck it up or not play. And I'm now I'm gonna go read some BT source books for fun, 'cause I do love the lore, and nuts to those who don't.

3Xtr3m3, on 08 April 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

MechWarrior Online
Product information
Type Computer game
Development Piranha Games
Publication information
Publisher Infinite Game Publishing
First published 2012
MSRP Free to Play
Content
Series MechWarrior


MechWarrior Online is an upcoming BattleTech-themed simulation game currently under development by Piranha Games and Smith & Tinker for Microsoft Windows. It was originally intended as a reboot of the MechWarrior series of computer games and announced as "MechWarrior" (frequently referred to as "MechWarrior 5" by fans, as the series had four previous installments).

As of yet, the game—announced as an online, free-to-play multi-player game—has not been launched.


When asked, BattleTech Line Developer Herbert A. Beas II stated in an official chat that the game would not be canonical per se[1]. Player factions (Houses and Merc Corps) will be fighting for worlds, therefore diverging from canonical lore. To maintain some essence of a canonical timeline, planets central to lore will be reserved by PGI's development staff so that major canonical events can be played out in the game's persistent setting.

That said, no video game iteration of MechWarrior has ever been considered canonical.


The above is from Sarna. Seems set in stone. Here is the link address http://www.sarna.net...Warrior_Online.

This should put the nail in the coffin on this chat of affecting Canonical history. Force of Law as it exists in real life says it is not going to happen. Anyone who says other wise is deluding themselves and anyone who listens to them. Please play the game as it is. Not how you want it to be.

Dude, since when has anybody ever considered something that can be changed by anyone "Set in stone."? I could go change it right now to say something completely different, would that then be set in stone?

Edited by Stone Profit, 11 April 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

If you want me to stick to ROLEPLAYING a certain way because that's how it was done in the game's lore, forget it.

If you're concerned that lore should dictate GAMEPLAY MECHANICS, then I fallback to my belief on a 1:1 TT conversion of rules; and that is that TT rules should act as a basis but not be the end-all, be-all. Ones that don't transpose properly into MWO gameplay should be altered or, if need be, scrapped.

[Dihm]

Famous, on 04 April 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Right now the FRR seems to be the place where people want to go to be the guy, or the group, or the lance, whatever, that turns back the Clan invasion. If the Devs let you play this are you going to complain when the Clan Mechs are ripping you apart because of the difference in tech? How much fun will it be to watch the mech you've been working with and customizing get torn to shreds because you are that outclassed? There's a reason ComStar/ComGuards had to save the IS, they weren't so far behind the tech curve.

I honestly don't understand the position of "If I can't change everything I'm not going to play" Why should you join the FRR if they're going to get rolled over? Because you like the flavor of the FRR, anything else is meta-gaming and min/max-ing.

I can only speak for myself, but "because you like the flavor of the FRR" is the exact reason I'm dedicated to the FRR. I'll roll with however PGI has the story unfold, be it with us as "bit players" or with us changing the course of "history". I'll just be happy that I can finally represent my favorite faction. That said, I'll bluster and boisterously declare that we shall stem the tide and turn back the vile invading scum. I'll shout to the rooftops that these worlds we fought so hard and long to win the freedom of will stay that way, and that the Clans won't advance one more step into our glorious Republic. Even if it isn't possible. I'll still be happy, either way. I can live with being pushed all the way back based on the lore, 7 systems is plenty for me.

Tadakuma, on 07 April 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

To start off with the idea that the FRR can hold of the clans doesn't makes any sense. In military terms they're a second rate power, while I can't dig out the exact figures (the information I have is from the mid 3050S) they're not as well equipped as the great houses and their military is smaller. In terms of military size I suspect that they were on par with The Taurian Concordant which means that they were respectable but couldn't survive a war with any of the 5 great house.

Very true, and a deliberate step that the first Elected Prince took, so as not to anger either of the major powers that surrounded us. Having only 15 Regiments, with VERY little experience, is the reason why the FRR crumbled as quickly as it did. Clan Wolf and Ghost Bear couldn't have picked a better attack corridor if they tried, going up against the fledgling 15 year old buffer state. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened had Christian Mansdottir been elected instead of Haakon Magnusson, since Christian (who became the General of the armed forces) had a vastly different stance on how much military might was needed.

Having it set up to change history takes some MAJOR hand-waving to call it anything remotely like Role-Playing. Right off the bat, we'll probably have more people in the FRR than were ever fielded, not to mention all the meta-gaming that's going on of people wanting to be there just because they want a first crack at Clan salvage/mechs.

[MaddMaxx]

Someone mentioned the "Lulls" in the Timeline. Perhaps it is these times where PGI could inject the Community into the Lore without it actually having any undesirable effect on the actual Lore itself.

Whose to say that Maxx's Marauders didn't go to Planet X, under contract of House A, on a strictly humanitarian run to stall the invading Clanners just long enough to allow the local population that wanted to leave, to did so.

In the end, the Clanners still get the Planet but our Skirmish(s) with them showed our Courage, Grit and our Compassion. The fact we had to tuck our tail and give up the Planet was a known component going in.

We may have to fall back under the Clans might but it is not written anywhere that we can't resist them at every turn and on every rock, moon and or Planet they take from the Sphere. Let that be our Cheer and let that be what the people read in the News reels and feeds.

"We will not go quietly!" Huuzah! lol

[CCC Dober]

Paladin1, on 07 April 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sorry, but you're incorrect here. While Battletech is a different game, it's only different because of the media format, not the game focus. The original game was designed for Lance on Lance battles, which is similar to the size that MWO is looking to be. Furthermore, while there was a game (The Succession Wars) that allowed you to command an entire Faction, that's not the case for Battletech.

There's actually no reason to stray from the canon timeline. MWO is looking to be scaled for minor conflicts, while the canon timeline only really touches on major points for the most part. While there are exceptions, they are just that; the exception and not the rule.

Just for starters, a turn based, dice controlled game is VERY different from a real time, skill based game. The former allows you 'global' control, the latter only 'limited' control, a single Mech to be precise and MAYBE some external, automated assets (aerospace fighters, arty etc.). Different scope, different rules. Rather obvious, isn't it?

I'm not gonna comment much on canon btw. I think it gives the game a proper background as opposed to many modern games that are rather shallow in comparison. If it makes the game better great, but if it needlessly cuts into the options of players and as such limits the game's true potential ...

[Paladin1]

CCC_Dober, on 11 April 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

Just for starters, a turn based, dice controlled game is VERY different from a real time, skill based game. The former allows you 'global' control, the latter only 'limited' control, a single Mech to be precise and MAYBE some external, automated assets (aerospace fighters, arty etc.). Different scope, different rules. Rather obvious, isn't it?

Like I said, the media format is different but Battletech and Mechwarrior are the same game otherwise. You claim that you could only control a single Mech, yet I distinctly remember being able to give commands to my lancemates in MW3. The truth is that once you get outside of the differences in media, the two games are identical.

[CCC Dober]

You gotta be kidding. Rolling dice and waiting for your enemy's to make his move (eventually) are TT/BT.
Mechwarrior allows you to interrupt your enemy at any time and play by your rules. BIG difference! Are we really on the same page here?

[Kargush]

Famous, on 04 April 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

If the Devs let you play this are you going to complain when the Clan Mechs are ripping you apart because of the difference in tech? How much fun will it be to watch the mech you've been working with and customizing get torn to shreds because you are that outclassed?

I can only speak for myself, but I know what I've signed up for. Wouldn't want it any other way.

[Gremlich Johns]

Once the Clans hit the deck, an alternate reality is created, permitting deviation from Canon.

[Androclese]

Gremlich Johns, on 01 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

All this being said, what about merc groups who demand that they be allowed to name themselves "Clan Black Sheep" ("they were held in secret away from the other clans" ) or "Clan Stomp" because that is what they want to do and have since 1995 or whatever. There is some failure in players coming into MWO to appreciate that while this is indeed a game and they have played lots of them, it has something the previous games they have played do not have - established history (albiet fictional). And the game is set to begin in 3049 gametime when there is an established status quo and storyline - something that will need to be considered heavily until after 3051 begins.

The game is not yet at a point where players can just start doing what they want willy-nilly.

Wow, we're being called out by name, sweet! Thanks, I'm honored.

But seriously, let me understand your premise here. You are saying that we cannot call ourselves what we want, nor play in the manner we want to, because we don't meet your definition of canon? Right, OK, I get it. That must be why this game is Free To Play, because nothing can happen that isn't covered exactly as it was in the books and we will instead just be starting at a non-interactive video simulation of the books. Yeah, yeah, makes total sense. So, umm.. if that is the case, explain the existence of the Unseen in the books but not in this game?

....
<crickets>
<tumbleweed>
...

Yeah, that is what I thought.

*sigh* Please stop waving the canon cannon around... you guys are just going to hurt yourselves one of these days.

[FOXace]

Honestly no matter where they take the story with this, so long as the Mech’s can still blow stuff up then I am happy.

Edited by FOXace, 12 April 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Paladin1]

CCC_Dober, on 11 April 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

You gotta be kidding. Rolling dice and waiting for your enemy's to make his move (eventually) are TT/BT.
Mechwarrior allows you to interrupt your enemy at any time and play by your rules. BIG difference! Are we really on the same page here?

Evidently you don't understand what I'm talking about when I say that the only difference between Battletech and Mechwarrior is the media in which it's displayed. Quit getting hung up on the idea of rolling dice versus reflexes and realize that both games are dealing with identical subject matter, which is what I'm talking about.

[HeIIequin]

Androclese, on 12 April 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Wow, we're being called out by name, sweet! Thanks, I'm honored.

But seriously, let me understand your premise here. You are saying that we cannot call ourselves what we want, nor play in the manner we want to, because we don't meet your definition of canon? Right, OK, I get it. That must be why this game is Free To Play, because nothing can happen that isn't covered exactly as it was in the books and we will instead just be starting at a non-interactive video simulation of the books. Yeah, yeah, makes total sense. So, umm.. if that is the case, explain the existence of the Unseen in the books but not in this game?

....
<crickets>
<tumbleweed>
...

Yeah, that is what I thought.

*sigh* Please stop waving the canon cannon around... you guys are just going to hurt yourselves one of these days.

It's possible he was alluding more to the possibility of opening up a bad can of worms. Next thing is well see is the Superfriends Happiness Compact. They run around trolling about peace and friendship or some other crap, deliberately ignore everything BT, and annoy the **** out of EVERYONE. It's already going to happen anyways, I know, but now imagine that unit dominating the IS, (in a full conquest mode) taking planet after planet, controlling and dictating what most other players can do, etc. I doubt the more hardcore BT fans are going to appreciate this if it happened. I know I wouldn't.

The average non BT/MW fan isn't going to give a damn about maintaining a certain 'feel', which I would assume most of the people who posted in this thread would be. In some other game with little to no canon as a setting this isn't a problem, but BT has such rich history that deviating so strongly from that is much more apparent and immersion breaking, even if we're not following lore to the letter. It's something to be aware of at any rate.

[Androclese]

HeIIequin, on 14 April 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

It's possible he was alluding more to the possibility of opening up a bad can of worms. Next thing is well see is the Superfriends Happiness Compact. They run around trolling about peace and friendship or some other crap, deliberately ignore everything BT, and annoy the **** out of EVERYONE. It's already going to happen anyways, I know, but now imagine that unit dominating the IS, (in a full conquest mode) taking planet after planet, controlling and dictating what most other players can do, etc. I doubt the more hardcore BT fans are going to appreciate this if it happened. I know I wouldn't.

The average non BT/MW fan isn't going to give a damn about maintaining a certain 'feel', which I would assume most of the people who posted in this thread would be. In some other game with little to no canon as a setting this isn't a problem, but BT has such rich history that deviating so strongly from that is much more apparent and immersion breaking, even if we're not following lore to the letter. It's something to be aware of at any rate.

HeIIequin,

You are the first person to give us a reply that did not taunt us or try to tell us how wrong we are. Since you took the time to give me a serious response, I can only do the same.

Believe it or not, I agree with you; my Clan agrees with you. If people are going to group up and play in this game, it will work best if they try to play their characters within the confines of the lore. To that degree, Clan Black Sheep does act in that manner... we run trials, we hold the proper ranks, we speak and hold ourselves as if we were living within the Battletech Universe. We purposely crafted ourselves and our history to fit within the cracks and loopholes of the official canon. If you allow that everything Kerensky did was not always written down, and also allow that we held ourselves apart until long after the Clan's established their territories, then [CBS] holding a few planets outside of mapped space is plausible. Understand, we did not do this to annoy the crap out of everybody (I'll address how we RP later), we crafted our history and creation the way we did so that this fit into the History, to fit into the game, and integrate ourselves as much as is possible. We are not asking to be written into the canon, we are just asking that we be allowed to exist in our version of reality... this games version of reality, and to be interacted with the same as any other Clan, because believe me, we will help make this game fun.

Look at us like this. Lets say you went to the Renaissance Faire this summer and you saw three groups of people within the Faire:

One group is in period exact costumes, speaking with perfect accents, and never once breaking character. Those are the canon people within these forums. More power to them and their ability to do that. That is not us, but we do not wish to stop them from doing that. They bring character to the game.

The next group you see is dressed up in some fairly detailed costumes, but they aren't period correct, their accents are slightly off, and they have been hitting the mead a bit more than they should have. This is how Clan Black Sheep is best described. We look up to the canon people and their dedication to the canon, but we realize we aren't able be them.

The last group is dressed up Halloween costumes, star trek uniforms, or justice league costumes, and they are making a complete mockery of the entire affair. We are not these people, although the canon people might disagree.

I spoke about the RP aspect of [CBS]. I can only describe it like this... on the forums, when we are in character, look at us as the Delta Tau Chi house, only we have girls in our ranks and they are more raucous than the boys. We are loud, obnoxious, and don't take things at all seriously... except when we strap into our mechs... ok, even then, we have keggerator taps built into the console... xD

We are here to have fun and to make your experience that much more interesting, and to do it using as much of the established canon as possible... just not all of it. Go ask anybody that knew us in the MW2 days, we made things fun, and bottom line, that is all we want to have.

If the fundies will simply accept that we aren't going away, that we are conducting ourselves as a Clan (mostly) should, and that we just need to be dealt with like any other Clan, then we will stop breaking character and making "leave us along posts". YES, I get that the Clans are not in the game yet, we still aren't changing our name. Treat us a Mercs until invasion day, ignoring our name, and all will be well.

...but if we continue to get fundie messages in posts that we started for ourselves in our little corner of the world, telling us how wrong we are that if we don't stop calling ourselves a Clan, then the IS won't deal with us, then I'll keep coming in their places to antagonize them in the same fashion and continually drive home the point that we, and other like us, are NOT going away. Ever.

So to that end, I call a truce and if left alone, promise to refrain from any further posts of this type. From here forward, I will stay in character and avoid all this nonsense.

Aff?