257 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Ehrithane, on 02 November 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

LRMs do twice the damage as TT

Armor was increased to twice the value as TT

No other weapon was increased to do twice the damage as TT, therefore the armor increase is nulified using LRMs, it is NOT nulified using any other weapon. This simple logic means that LRMs are currently overpowered. They currently have a "buff" that no other weapon benefits from by nulifying the additional armor used to make matches more survivable.

Not surprisingly, most people still haven't realized that not everyone that sees these weapons are overpowered has a problem with them. As I said before, keep using LRM boats, pads my KDR... but you are ignoring the fact that a broken mechanic means new players won't stick around/no word of mouth, if you want a successful game, it needs to be a balanced one.

LRMs do twice the Damage as TT... True. But they also fire around 2/3 as fast as other weapons. So 4 Medium lasers(the average amount) fire three times in a turn for 60 damage and the much heavier 2 LRM20 fires twice for almost 160 damage. So Medium Lasers do 1/3 the damage for 1/5 the weight. Tell me again how LRMs are OP? Remember not all my missiles hit even when I do hit you. Tell me again how my double damage needs Nerfed? Tell me again how LRMs are OP?

Armor damage was doubled... True, but most weapon cycle times have TRIPLED, so the increase of protection does not match the damage potentual of most weapons that fire 3 times per turn.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 November 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

LRMs do twice the Damage as TT... True. But they also fire around 2/3 as fast as other weapons. So 4 Medium lasers(the average amount) fire three times in a turn for 60 damage and the much heavier 2 LRM20 fires twice for almost 160 damage. So Medium Lasers do 1/3 the damage for 1/5 the weight. Tell me again how LRMs are OP? Remember not all my missiles hit even when I do hit you. Tell me again how my double damage needs Nerfed? Tell me again how LRMs are OP?

Armor damage was doubled... True, but most weapon cycle times have TRIPLED, so the increase of protection does not match the damage potentual of most weapons that fire 3 times per turn.

Actually:
Check Ohmwrecker's Charts

Spoiler

LRM20 has a cooldown of 4.75

The Medium Laser has a cooldown of 3, but also a beam duration of 1. Tests have shown that the cooldown is only counted after the beam duration has expired. That means the Medium Laser has a fire rate of 1 shot every 4 seconds, not 1 shot every 3 seconds.

But what is the end result of all this:

MW:O
LRM20: 40 damage per shot. Average Damage Per Second: 8.42
AC20: 20 damage per shot. Average Damage per Second: 5
Medium Laser: 5 damage per shot. Average Damage per Second: 1.25

TT:
LRM 20: 20 damage per shot. Average Damage Per Second: 2
AC20: 20 damage per shot. Average Damge per Second: 2
Medium Laser: 5 damage per shot. Average Damage per Second: 0.5

Damage Increases from TT to MW:O
LRM20: +100 % per SHot; +320 % Damage per Second
AC: +0 % per SHot; 150 % Damage per Second
Medium Laser: +0 % Shot; 150 % Damage per Seond

What exactly has changed in MW:O so much that the damage of the LRM needs doubling to quadrupling?
You say missiles may miss - well, in TT they did too, I believe someone said a more realistic damage figure was 12 per salvo, since on average 12 missiles would make it. And a Medium Laser doesn't also hit every time - since you have to maintain the beam for 1 second, you can deal less damage ot the target or the desired hit location as well. Not to the extent the LRM may, but it's also not a non-factor for lasers.)

(And we haven't even gone into how this affects heat and ammo needs.
But just an example:
AC20 Ammo per Ton in TT: 5; LRM20: 6 (120 missiles)
AC20 Ammo per ton in MW:O: 7; LRM: 9 (180 missiles); 40 % increase for AC20, 50 % increase of LRMs )

Regarding doubling armour - doubling all ammo per ton values would have done the trick to compensate for the extra damage needed. But doubling damage per point of ammo makes the whole doubling of armour kinda pointless.)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 02 November 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[Pesht]

I wouldn't have as much of an issue with LRM if you didn't need to be behind a 5 story building or a sheer cliff face 60 feet tall to avoid getting hit. Anything short of a vertical wall in front of you twice the height of your mech and you're going to get destroyed by LRM even though you're in cover due to the extreme arc they take.

The trouble with saying you need skill to counter LRM is those people using the LRM can also use skill to counter your counter. Spreading out LRM boats so getting under the range of one of them means you get hit by the 3 other ones and die is just one of many examples.

Edited by Pesht, 02 November 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[Dommel]

Ashnod, on 02 November 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Doesn't really happen unless your not moving, and you should pretty much always be moving, weaving, etc.


Also about the streak cat, 8 streak 2's doing 2.5 damage per missile.. yea You are playing a light mech you need to realize how fragile you are, and do your damn best to avoid as much damage as possible.

Even if your still moving and dodging and all that. there are still times you get hit. I don't mind that LRMs are strong, but it should not be an insta (near) death thing for players. going critical within 1 minutes of a match because you are forces(enemies, map layout, etc) to maneuver in such a way that LRMs hit, seems very harsh.. Going critical in lets say 3 salvos seems better to me.

And I think this design philosophy carries over to all weapons and mechs. you should not be able to die or be near death in 1 shot. Maybe a few exceptions for sniper/"skill" type of things with slow rate of fire.. but then still I have my doubts about it.

[Joseph Mallan]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 November 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

Actually:
Check Ohmwrecker's Charts

Spoiler

LRM20 has a cooldown of 4.75

The Medium Laser has a cooldown of 3, but also a beam duration of 1. Tests have shown that the cooldown is only counted after the beam duration has expired. That means the Medium Laser has a fire rate of 1 shot every 4 seconds, not 1 shot every 3 seconds.

A point I did Miss. Thank you for the reminder. That does change my numbers but not the position.

Oh and don't even go with Damge per second on TT, cause by TT LRM20s can do between 6-20 damage per salvo depending on how the dice rolls. The average damage of an LRM 20 is 12 points per salvo.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 02 November 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[I Just Ate Your Grapes Bro]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 November 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

A point I did Miss. Thank you for the reminder. That does change my numbers but not the position.

Oh and don't even go with Damge per second on TT, cause by TT LRM20s can do between 6-20 damage per salvo depending on how the dice rolls. The average damage of an LRM 20 is 12 points per salvo.

Except here, if you are on a large enough target, it's closer to 38-40. Even on smaller targets, only 2-4 missiles will miss if they are running. I pilot a cicada and at 129 kph, I can only hope to outrun LRMs if I'm strafing at medium range, even then a few almost always hit, so saying you can just outrun them simply isn't accurate, you CAN use cover, but you're rolling the proverbial dice on wether or not those LRMs are actually going to be STOPPED by that cover.

Then take into account if someone is wasting an assault slot for the ever popular LRM atas boat.... It doesn't fire all 20 missiles at once, it fires 5 at a time, which increase both its accuracy AND lower its damage spread, while allowing it to fire continuously, nullifying the cooldown numbers you've posted.....


Oh, and lets not forget, you can just sit in your base, never actually move and barely move your torso and top the damage and kill charts every time.



How exactly weren't they overpowered again?



Oh that's right...... cause you have to have a third party target to hit with them at max range? Man LRMs suck.....

The problem isn't, "how much fun do we get to keep having blowing up newbies in our LRM boats!!!!?" The problem is, how long do you think newbies will honestly stick around when they are getting destroyed in seconds from targets they never saw, and who used no skill whatsoever to kill them? (anyone claiming the skill lies in the LRM boat and NOT the spotter is just delusional)

Edited by Ehrithane, 02 November 2012 - 04:30 AM.

[Dharmik]

Salient, on 29 October 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

i bet those LRMs seem... pretty OP. That's because, they are.

Sorry, you'd be betting wrong. LRM's are easy to avoid. Dodge behind cover and break LOS, use AMS, mechs in a group with AMS will wipe out most incoming LRM's. Tons of ways to deal with LRM's. If you know what you're doing you can close on LRM mechs on most maps without them being able to get many shots on you. They're far from over powered and only truly effective when working in a team with good spotters.

[Enigmos]

LRMs only seem OP when you are being incessantly hit by multiple streams of missiles. They are needed for scout suppression.

[Triggerhippy]

Lol at OP poll didn't go as expected huh?
LRM's are nasty -but they are supposed to be.
Wait for ecm that should help a lot, no point in trying to balance them before that's in the game.

[wanderer]

Ezrekiel, on 30 October 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Well, LRM vs SRM balance is weird, to put it mildly.

Tabletop: LRM = 1 damage/missile SRM = 2 damage/missile
MWO: LRM = 2 damage/missile SRM = 2.5 damage/missile

wtf ?

Both weapons lack the ability to precision-aim at a target, meaning their higher damage is in effect, not.

Good rule of thumb- take whatever damage an LRM carrier or boat does and halve it for their actual effect, as about that much gets wasted on damage to non-critical components during hitting a target. 40 damage from an LRM salvo is like 20 damage directed at the section you wanted hit, as far as killing something is concerned. For SRMs, 66% (since most people compensate by point-blanking for minimal spread, but some missiles still hit where they aren't wanted) to 75% of damage is "on-target" vs. simply wasted blowing up armor or internals that would have gone away from more precise shooting. An LRM barrage will tear apart an arm and side torso equally, while someone firing at that Atlas just aims for the side torso and with less damage, blows the limb off in the process. Likewise, LRMs tend to destroy side torsos (both sides, no less!) before dealing lethal CT damage.

My 4-digit damage total with LRMs is about the equivalent of 500 or so "real" damage dealt by non-missile fire.

[Pesht]

Triggerhippy, on 02 November 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

Lol at OP poll didn't go as expected huh?

This just in, huge number of people using LRM boats in games. In another unrelated story, huge number of people state LRMs not overpowered.

[Triggerhippy]

Yup lrm boats are boring bits of kit - but very weak to scouts - I can sum up your argument with the old "scissors are OP - rock is fine - regards paper." Line - it's all a system of checks and balances. If your not well balanced, of course your going to run into issues, and you sound like you may have a few.

[MustrumRidcully]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 November 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

A point I did Miss. Thank you for the reminder. That does change my numbers but not the position.

But on what basis?

At least 50 % of all locked missiles would need to miss on average for LRMs reaching the damage/tonnage efficiency of other weapons.

[I Just Ate Your Grapes Bro]

wanderer, on 02 November 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

Both weapons lack the ability to precision-aim at a target, meaning their higher damage is in effect, not.

Good rule of thumb- take whatever damage an LRM carrier or boat does and halve it for their actual effect, as about that much gets wasted on damage to non-critical components during hitting a target. 40 damage from an LRM salvo is like 20 damage directed at the section you wanted hit, as far as killing something is concerned. For SRMs, 66% (since most people compensate by point-blanking for minimal spread, but some missiles still hit where they aren't wanted) to 75% of damage is "on-target" vs. simply wasted blowing up armor or internals that would have gone away from more precise shooting. An LRM barrage will tear apart an arm and side torso equally, while someone firing at that Atlas just aims for the side torso and with less damage, blows the limb off in the process. Likewise, LRMs tend to destroy side torsos (both sides, no less!) before dealing lethal CT damage.

My 4-digit damage total with LRMs is about the equivalent of 500 or so "real" damage dealt by non-missile fire.

The section you wanted to hit? which section was that exactly when you were halfway across the map? This isn't a legitimate argument as it does do damage over the whole mech, very effectively shredding their armor with minimal effort or ammo consumption. For a FRACTION of a ton, 2 salvos, you can kill a light mech in seconds, strip a medium of all armor, or even tear a component off of a heavy. No other weapon offers this advantage up, even the dreaded gausscat requires line of sight, quick reflexes and a steady hand to kill someone, the LRM literally just requires you to be sitting there and push the fire button. You could probably even just write a macro and not even have to do that.

Also, the majority of missiles hit the target in its largest hitbox location, so it IS dealing damage unevenly across the mech, not equally to a side torso and arm.... a hunchback will take MUCH more of the damage to its CT than a centurion would.

Also, if this were "a good rule of thumb" would LRM boats be doing 1600 damage per fight while nothing else gets close to them? I don't think so.

Edited by Ehrithane, 02 November 2012 - 05:07 AM.

[Fusea]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 November 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

But on what basis?

At least 50 % of all locked missiles would need to miss on average for LRMs reaching the damage/tonnage efficiency of other weapons.

Not really. Since LRMs are going to splatter all over your body. LRMs are good at softening targets and Critical hunting when used against a weakened target. I love my missile Cat and still loved it when everyone was running AMS. Still loved it when I couldn't get a team to spot for me to save my soul from the black pits of hades and was doing... 16 damage a match. I will repeat that. I've had matches with double digit damage figurs because of utterly crap spotting. Want to stop the missiles? Kill the spotter or chase him off with heavy fire. Think you may be the subject of a target lock? Shut down for a second. It breaks all locks but Narc and Tag. Try shutting down when someone is using an AC/20, lemme know how well that works out for you.

LRMs are like any other weapon. Very good at what they do. But pretty crap everywhere else.

For added fun against missile boats, grab a light mech or a Cicada, sneak wide around the map, pew pew them with lasers and watch them scatter. Any missile boat will immediately stop flinging missiles to try and deal with you. And the fun fact is, they typically have very limited close range fire power. Don't forget to announce in team chat that you have the missile carrier chasing you around in a knife fight. It's just good team work to let your friends know that the rain has stopped because you are so awesome.

[Kronos Hopeslayer]

Ever see a bunch of LRM boats get rolled over by a lance of medium mechs? Ya not so OP when they can't shoot them.

[sirius89]

LRM's are not OP.Just every noob sports them atm because trial mechs.It's basically LRM Boat Online atm.

[Enigmos]

Countering an LRM team is considerably different depending on whether you have cover. Charging them across 800 meters of open ground on caustic is widely different from infiltrating the frozen city to within 180 meters.

[IamSeanConnery]

The Gunman, on 30 October 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Sorry OP, currently 70% of respondents disagree with you.

If you don't like getting hit by LRM's try one of the following, their all battle tested and proven tactics:
1. Get behind cover.
2. Move outside maximum LRM range
3. Move inside minimum LRM range
4. Buy AMS
5. Out run the LRMs (light mechs only)

Logic:
#1. Cover is shoddy when forming an offensive and the cover must be high since the drop angle on LRMs is steep. This is the best option- but only reliable if you hole up
#2&3. Are you joking? 180-1000m is impossible to stay out of or close the gap very easily. Especially with multiple LRM mechs.
#4. AMS. Lets say it shoots an LRM5 worth out. So when I get hit by 4LRM20=80LRM, I only get hit with ~75. Phew! ;/ Best scenario you have 4 AMS. Great. I'm still getting hit with 60. After misses thats at least 80 damage per volley. Just look at LRM mechs damage scores post match. They often do twice the amount of damage as other mechs.
#5. Let's all play light mechs.

LRMS aren't horribly OP, which I think is reflected in the polls. However, they are OP enough to change the playstyle out there -3/4 of the battle hiding from LRMs and 1/4 brawling. I'd like to see more like 1/2 and 1/2.

Increase the minimum range to 250 and decrease damage from 2 to 1.75. Either that or implement ECM well.

It is also my personal opinion that many people simply ignore the OPness simply because they use them and enjoy the way they play. I personally think they lack skill to play and stay away. Therefore, naturally I am biased. It comes down to how you want the game to feel. I just think there is too much LRMing going on and the damage with combination of stripping weapons away due to criticals through armor is simply too effective for a support weapon that is relatively easy to use.

[MustrumRidcully]

Fusea, on 02 November 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

Not really. Since LRMs are going to splatter all over your body.

Not every Laser and every Ballistic Projectile hits exactly where you want it to hit, either.Should they get, say, a 50 % damage buff for that perhaps?

LRMs do tend to hit the torso regions, and sometimes the head. This is pretty much where most other weapons will also hit if you're going for a center torso kill, which is probably stil the most common way of destroying a mech.