593 replies to this topic

[Strumtruppen]

i think MFB's are a good idea expect who will pliot them? and if it's a NPC then, there goes the MFB, and if you choose ballstic weapon's set then you should suffer the trouble of reloading. i personally ran out of ammo when it no longer mattered when i had taken down about 5+ mechs in MW4 mercs in my puma with a LBX-20 AC and 4 med lasers

Edited by Strumtruppen, 06 April 2012 - 06:05 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

wwiiogre, on 05 April 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

That is how I would see it as well Aegis, but would like it available, if the player who wants a reload had already purchased the ammo and had to choose to put it in the base or cargo loader knowing he may not use it and it could be destroyed or stolen. For me, that makes it a better game.

chris

I like that idea. So before you drop, you have to designate not only money for the ammo (any not used would be refunded) and there may be an additional cost for being able to do so.

I'm just not keen on the idea of it getting stolen. There's too many unscrupulous people online, teammates and enemies alike. It would have to be put aside just for you, and you could only do it once per game. Of course, the more ammo your variant stores, the more expensive the feature would be.

I love a dynamic battlefield.

Since energy weapons have infinite ammo, I would hope that the ammo-based weapons have a "pound for pound" more powerful punch to help balance to pro/con of each weapon type.

[Yeach]

Jonas, on 05 April 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

I do poss this question, will the ammo be closer to the TT style ( 1 ton = 10 rounds "A/C-20" ) or are they going more of the MW4 route where every thing seem to have more shots per ton ?

That is a good question.
You have to also remember that TT rules the 1 round also indicates that damage done in 10 seconds.
(if you don't go by the Solaris rules which I think is an entirely different ruleset altogether)
With a typical AC20 loadout with two tons of ammo (10 rounds); you should be able to have substain fire for 100 seconds or 1 min 40s

(Correct me if I am wrong) but the MW4 AC20 has a recycle time of 5 seconds and 20 shots (per ton); If the shot tonnage were havled (10 shots per ton in MW4), I think this system would have been acceptable.

My opinion is that for STOCK mechs with the default loadout for AC20 ammo in a Hunchback or Atlas should be reasonable enough to be able in a 12v12 battle be able to take out 6 average tonnage mechs (half the total) with AC20s alone.
Extrapolating from Mechs requiring 3 - 4 shots would equal about 20 shots required (or double the amount of 10 shots).

[00dlez]

MostlyHarmless, on 04 April 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

I think ammo boats should have to deal with running dry, those who prefer energy heavy designs have to deal with heat problems if you want ammo dependent designs then you get to deal with less heat but a finite amount of ammo.

^That's it.

[TheRulesLawyer]

I'm not dead set against MFB reloads, but it should take a long time to do, and you should be utterly helpless, and at a huge risk of ammo explosion if hit while reloading. Running out of ammo is the risk of the weapon. They should do damage far quicker than energy based weapons, but it comes at a price.

[Ragotag]

I'm kind of torn on this. I'm really fond of the idea of having a very difficult to destroy Drop Ship or Mech Bay in the rear, one that a 'Mech could retreat to when heavily damaged or out of ammo in order to minimize any further wear & tear which equates to C-Bill expenses. If some game feature like this were implemented, it would also be reasonable to use such facilities for ammo resupply as long as the time it takes to resupply is somewhat realistic (like 5 - 10 minutes) which very well could make such a resupply feature moot if the average battle only lasts 20 minutes.

However, going to the rear for resupply would temporarily remove the 'Mech's remaining combat power (if any) from the battle, so it could be an interesting dynamic. Can a 'Mech get to the rear, resupply, and return to the battlefield in time to actually make a difference? Would a resupplied 'Mech return to the battlefront only to find themselves outnumbered 4:1, thus risking the total destruction of their 'Mech?

[Evgeny Bear]

Aegis Kleais™, on 06 April 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

I like that idea. So before you drop, you have to designate not only money for the ammo (any not used would be refunded) and there may be an additional cost for being able to do so.

I'm just not keen on the idea of it getting stolen. There's too many unscrupulous people online, teammates and enemies alike. It would have to be put aside just for you, and you could only do it once per game. Of course, the more ammo your variant stores, the more expensive the feature would be.

I love a dynamic battlefield.

Since energy weapons have infinite ammo, I would hope that the ammo-based weapons have a "pound for pound" more powerful punch to help balance to pro/con of each weapon type.

If I do scout role, shooting your ammo trucks and wreak havoc amongst your support would be the first thing I would do after I scouted your position, there is no Fault in that thinking, only tactical value.

Edited by Andar89, 06 April 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

shouldnt be a concern unless your a really terrible shot or you played around in the mechlab and screwed yourself.

[HepatitisTK]

I'd rather not see reloads in the game though i wont mind seeing MFBs. To me it's a terribly small thing to worry about and heres my line of thinking:

You're in an ammo boat. Through the match you've managed to survive to the point where you are out of ammo. What does this mean? It could be two things. 1. You've expended all of your ammo and have done tremendous damage to the opposing team. Even if you didn't fell any enemy mechs you have helped your team out ALOT and thus should feel good about yourself. You were useful and by this time the match should be nearly over if not done and your pockets should be filled with Cbills and your heart with pride. 2. You've expended all of your ammo by holding the trigger down but managed to pull an accuracy % of 5%. If you run out of ammo AND haven't done much damage to the enemy... then you don't need a reload... you need a complete piloting skill/tactical overhaul.

[xKiNGx]

If i waste all my ammo on a shiny *** rock thats my problem.. but i think replenishing ammo would be a good idea

[Yuba Frank]

You will have to balance your loadout to make sure you aren't defenseless when your rounds run out or develop the skill of managing your loadout through cycling which weapons you are using. It is up the the mechwarrior to decide how that works.

[Steel Talon]

Some kind of supply drops, u got dropship above battlefield anyway.
As strategic aspect, enemy can caputre your supplies.

When u run out of ammo & battle is not over, it would be seriously dumb to do nothing

Edited by steel talon, 06 April 2012 - 03:54 PM.

[Goldhawk]

Kylarus, on 04 April 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

This is my feel on it.
Running out of ammo is something that feels really cool to read about in stories where the length of a battle is generally short and the players(actors/characters/etc) have literary boundaries as opposed to graphical boundaries. In TT, running out of ammo seems like it separates the crafty from the straightforward. I haven't played very much, but in such a game I could see a player making use of nonstandard combat maneuvers to take down a foe. In a more graphical game where one can't hand-wave those things, it limits options, but doesn't have to make it less fun, in that you still have other weapons and possibly DFA and running the enemy into traps and hazards.

In a short sweet match, ammo should last till the end. In a protracted battle with numerous opponents, perhaps being able to cycle frontliners to and from a MFB to reload while you have forces holding a line would be viable. Could lead to the choice of blitz and hope it doesn't backfire or whittle the opponent down from a fortified position.
The sweet spot for battle times should be between running out of ammo for all your weapons (machine guns as well) and necessitating a reload to continue the fight with any decency and not hitting the halfway mark on your primary ammo counter.

I agree, in the Battletech novels, the best way that the Inner Sphere was able to defeat the Clans on Tukayyid was because the clanners enjoyed using ballistic and missile weapons. It then allowed the Comstar forces to obliterate the clan mechs that relied too much upon ballistic weapons, example, the "Gargoyle" or Man-O-War. 80 tons of fear with auto cannons, SRMs, and.... a small laser in a primary configuration..... After all that ammo is gone......Awkward... Yea.... So if you are insane enough to throw 4 heavy autocannons on your mech, and you have crappy secondary weapons, and you run out of ammo... I am coming for YOU! Talons out baby.

[Lorcan Lladd]

I do support the addition of supply units and supply routes in the game; that could add some new elements to be considered when planning for a battle, both from defensive and offensive perspectives...
...It could also make long, drawn-out matches more fun to play for those who don't boat lasers.

[Seabear]

The 3025 TRO has the J27 which is a combat ammo transport to accomplish the reloading of mechs on or near the battlefield. It is slow, weak and tends to blow up very easily. These could be used as the source of resupply. They would also make wonderful objectives to be taken if possible. There would be some very interesting fights for these prizes with both sides trying to take/ defend the truck without blowing it up.

Resupply realy does not come into the picture unless there is an interconnected campaign where mechs are in the field for an extended period of time. Then resupply becomes a major point of concern. The old adage "One studies tactics to win battles; one studies strategy to win campaigns;one studies logistics to win wars" is true. I would like to see some inclusion of supply in the game , but in the end this is a game about piloting mechs not bookkeeeping.

[trycksh0t]

I say when you're out, you're out, and I intend to almost always run ammo-dependent 'Mechs. This is why the medium laser was invented, it is the perfect back-up for when you run dry.

And really, we're talking about company level engagements here. If you're even half awake, running dry shouldn't be an issue.

[Felix Dracc]

My only thought is if MFB's are put in then should they be destroyable?
Attacking a enemies supply train is a valid tactic in war.

[Vexgrave Lars]

The cost must equal the benefits, MFB:

Mobile Field Bases are similar to a DropShip's 'Mech or vehicle cubicle, providing a repair platform equipped with the same gear minus launch mechanisms and amenities.^[1]They were first put into use by the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth in 3059 and Clan Coyote in 3060.

Assuming we trash canon... 10 years different..

The vehicle is massive, capable of storing large amounts of any equipment required for prolonged operations (in game statistics are 300 tons of equipment, as well as 2 stripped down Battlemech chassis of any weight class). Maximum speed is given by the Mechwarrior 3 tech manual as 64 kph, cruising speed is 43 kph. When the vehicles deploy, their upper portions unfold, forming a complete mechbay. When three vehicles work together, they are capable of enclosing a Mech completely, but even one vehicle is capable of providing efficient (if slower) repairs. Nine such vehicles along with a BattleMech company could be carried by a Union class DropShip (it is unknown whether any modifications were required).

Mobile Field Base vehicles are completely unarmed.

So the MFB carries 500 tons of gear.. 300 stuff, plus up to 2, 200 ton mech chassis.

What's a reasonable cost to a company using such a vehicle? How do you think that should be balanced? And since this is a Price is Right giveaway... why not have armor repairs and crit repairs too.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 07 April 2012 - 09:39 AM.

[Paladin1]

While I wouldn't mind having the option to reload if possible, I voted no reloads at all for one very specific reason.

It takes 15 minutes PER TON OF AMMO to reload. Even a design such as the Enforcer, with it's single ton of ammo, would take 15 minutes to reload and that's not counting the amount of time it takes to travel to and from the base, move into position, shut down and restart, then return to the battle. In total, you could very easily be looking at over 30 minutes of down time just to reload a single ton of ammo. Designs such as the AS7-D Atlas, which carries five tons of ammo (2 tons for the AC, 2 tons for the LRM, 1 ton for the SRM), would take 1.25 hours to reload completely.

Those of you thinking that reloading the ammo bins on a `Mech is like swapping out an empty rifle magazine for a full one don't understand how these designs are built. The magazines of a `Mech are more like the magazines on a modern warship. They're buried in the guts of the `Mech and are under literally layers of armor and myomers.

Also, there's the little problem of transporting those MFBs in the first place. Taking the Vexgrave Lars post above mine, you quickly realize that someone on the MW3 design team was playing fast and loose with the canon. The Union Dropship only weighs in at 3,500 tons total, including the cubicles for 12 `Mechs and 2 Aerospace fighters, and that includes all the spare parts and ammo that will be needed not only by the Dropship but the `Mech Company assigned to it. Those 9 MFBs that are supposed to be carried by the Union? They weigh in at 6,000 tons, almost twice as much as the Union itself.

Long story short, MFBs aren't a viable option not only due to the timeline but also due to the sheer logistics involved, so don't bother worrying about them; they won't be in the game. At best, you're going to be seeing J-27 Ordnance Transports and maybe Coolant Trucks.

[William Petersen]

Vexgrave Lars, on 07 April 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

The cost must equal the benefits, MFB:

Mobile Field Bases are similar to a DropShip's 'Mech or vehicle cubicle, providing a repair platform equipped with the same gear minus launch mechanisms and amenities.^[1]They were first put into use by the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth in 3059 and Clan Coyote in 3060.

Assuming we trash canon... 10 years different..

The vehicle is massive, capable of storing large amounts of any equipment required for prolonged operations (in game statistics are 300 tons of equipment, as well as 2 stripped down Battlemech chassis of any weight class). Maximum speed is given by the Mechwarrior 3 tech manual as 64 kph, cruising speed is 43 kph. When the vehicles deploy, their upper portions unfold, forming a complete mechbay. When three vehicles work together, they are capable of enclosing a Mech completely, but even one vehicle is capable of providing efficient (if slower) repairs. Nine such vehicles along with a BattleMech company could be carried by a Union class DropShip (it is unknown whether any modifications were required).

Mobile Field Base vehicles are completely unarmed.

So the MFB carries 500 tons of gear.. 300 stuff, plus up to 2, 200 ton mech chassis.

What's a reasonable cost to a company using such a vehicle? How do you think that should be balanced? And since this is a Price is Right giveaway... why not have armor repairs and crit repairs too.

That's all well and good, but...

Sarna said:

Description

The J-37 Ordnance Transport is a support vehicle used for resupplying military units in the field. Based on the earlier J-27 Ordnance Transport, it has been produced in the Capellan Confederation by Ceres Metals since the 28th Century, though production was halted by the Succession Wars. In response to the failings of the J-27, the J-37 is larger, with the ability to carry 17 tons of cargo, and better protected, replacing the vulnerable trailer with an enclosed hold. It also comes with a one-ton Infantry Transport Bay and carries 5.5 tons of combat-grade armor. The vehicle's high speed, powered by a Fusion Engine, allows it to quickly get to its destination and, if necessary, flee from the enemy.
Armament

The vehicle is only armed with an ER Small Laser, meant to provide limited self-protection, manned by a dedicated gunner.
Variants

When originally produced, the J-37 was armed with only a Small Laser, as well as a weaker frame and armoring. When production restarted in 3076, the vehicle was heavily upgraded to its current configuration.

Paladin1, on 07 April 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

It takes 15 minutes PER TON OF AMMO to reload.

I don't suppose you have a citation for this.

Edited by William Petersen, 07 April 2012 - 11:43 AM.