593 replies to this topic

[Ragotag]

William Petersen, on 07 April 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Did you even read it? All HarJel does is make sure sections don't breach from armour damage (while armour remains) while underwater.

Did you even read it? Clan Tech that isn't developed till 3059... hence Vex's comment that it is far off.

[verybad]

Vexgrave Lars, on 07 April 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

And which of the Dev's should we pull off his current group of tasks to put all these mechanics/graphics together?

That's the cost...that worries me most.

And anything else they can make easier for you while they're at it? Perhaps some self sealing armor?

Modeling a decent looking ammo truck can be done in a day. It doesn't have to move, it can be sited at a spawn point. The programming would be minimal. If ammo can be used, it's numbers can be adjusted upwards as well in the game without huge efforts.

So a planet can be conquered in 20 minutes, but you can't reload ammo during that time. Why do they make ammo trucks then?

You're probably familiar with how long typical Btech TT games last. 10 turns (140 seconds) is a very long game.

So apparently under your opinion, the game shouldn't have any tactical aspects other than deathmatch. Defending a vulnerable unit that's actually useful to your team in the game is a blasphemy,

Lets simplify this.

A match in most cases would last about 20 minutes according to the developers. Of course if a team kills all the opponents, then it would be shorter.

Conquering a planet in the metagame is based on what team wins a match over posession of that planet, so a planet can be won in a single match. Might take more, we don't know, it can cjange posession quickly however.

Planet conquering in battletech typically takes anywhere from weeks to months, to in some cases years.

So the metagame is also wrong in your logic. We shouldn't be able to conquer planets so quickly. In addition, mech games should not last 30 minutes, or 20 minutes, but (in order to model TT rules most closely, games should only last 3 minutes, providing for 18 turns, and extremely long game.

We should also not be able to aim our weapons, we need to have a pair of digital dice that we roll using our mouses in order to hit. Weapons need to fire every 10 seconds, that's how it's done in TT.

We need to simulate TT rules, not mech combat!!!

Edited by verybad, 07 April 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[Claw55]

Please, Blake, anything but infinite ammo, this isn't F*ing MechAssault!

Edited by Claw55, 07 April 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[verybad]

Who is asking for infinite ammo?

An explosive ammo truck that the oppsing team can find and or blow up, limiting your team isn't infinite ammo Also if it's 2 kilometers from the main battleline over rough ground and you need to reload, it's not exactly instantaneous reloads...

Edited by verybad, 07 April 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

verybad, on 07 April 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Modeling a decent looking ammo truck can be done in a day. It doesn't have to move, it can be sited at a spawn point. The programming would be minimal. If ammo can be used, it's numbers can be adjusted upwards as well in the game without huge efforts.

So a planet can be conquered in 20 minutes, but you can't reload ammo during that time. Why do they make ammo trucks then?

You're probably familiar with how long typical Btech TT games last. 10 turns (140 seconds) is a very long game.

So apparently under your opinion, the game shouldn't have any tactical aspects other than deathmatch. Defending a vulnerable unit that's actually useful to your team in the game is a blasphemy,

Lets simplify this.

A match in most cases would last about 20 minutes according to the developers. Of course if a team kills all the opponents, then it would be shorter.

Conquering a planet in the metagame is based on what team wins a match over posession of that planet, so a planet can be won in a single match. Might take more, we don't know, it can cjange posession quickly however.

Planet conquering in battletech typically takes anywhere from weeks to months, to in some cases years.

So the metagame is also wrong in your logic. We shouldn't be able to conquer planets so quickly. In addition, mech games should not last 30 minutes, or 20 minutes, but (in order to model TT rules most closely, games should only last 3 minutes, providing for 18 turns, and extremely long game.

We should also not be able to aim our weapons, we need to have a pair of digital dice that we roll using our mouses in order to hit. Weapons need to fire every 10 seconds, that's how it's done in TT.

We need to simulate TT rules, not mech combat!!!

If it doesn't move... then why a truck? really? Why bother?

The art will prolly take a day.. then all the code that goes into making it work right, governance of rules, all the potential code that goes into the way it should work, when it works right.

10 Minutes.. 100 minutes.. does it really matter?

"So apparently under your opinion, the game shouldn't have any tactical aspects other than deathmatch. Defending a vulnerable unit that's actually useful to your team in the game is a blasphemy,"

If its a mission objective that fine You made me smile. If a missions says were defending a repair base, or ammo dump.. I can't care (sounds fun actually). That's mission oriented situation, no big.. no player control, no player decisions, just duty and responsibility for completing the goal or not.

I do care when the entitled feeling want to mash rules, to make something fit their wishes and wants. My 7 year old daughter in the Skyrim console doing god mode making dragons fly around her comes to mind.

You want an MFB.. you wait til its released, 10 years or so from now like the Mad Cat II. You want more ammo, compensate the way the rules already enable you to strip a ton somewhere and add some ammo ...like a big boy. Trigger happy.. suffer for it.

Free ****, is just babysitting the self-inflicted handicapped, support it.. no way.

Moreover, if your asking for something, then it wouldn't have been an expectation until someone got a cool creative idea to add something more.

Note: I don't do blasphemy, I love this idea of support and responsibility, just no one has explained that there will be a balance int he game, and its a great umbrella concept with poor support for in game mechanics. Heretical concepts are what drag humanity to grow.. feet first as required

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 07 April 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[wwiiogre]

Vexgrave,

I have said what the penalties for rearming under combat are in canon for TT. They are severe including explosions at 8% chance per ton of ammo loaded rolled for by mystery dice machine for each ton loaded as its loaded. Also the mech being loaded has to be shut down completely for entire time plus shut down sequence plus start up sequence. Another mech loading it would have to be completely immobile while loading. Ammo would have to be available in the exact type. Now while the loading is occurring the machine getting loaded already has a chance to explode at 8% per ton plus if it takes any damage to the rear facing during the loading process by friend or foe then it automatically causes all of the mech that is being rearmed's ammo to explode (all of it since the bins are open).

So what are the bad things that can happen to a mech if it is reloaded in game:

1. 8% per ton loaded of ammo exploding
2. If hit in back while reloading all ammo explodes
3. must be shut down entire time
4. reloading mech must also be immobile and is in same area as mech being reloaded so takes all ammo explosion just as mech being reloaded does.
5. Takes 30 or 50 seconds to reload.
6. Imagine it will not be near front lines for obvious danger close reasons meaning Mech that wants to be reloaded will be out of combat for an extended part of game.
7. Mech going to be reloaded will need possibly 1-3 mechs to safely reload, note Number 1 happens no matter what, so safely doesn't mean safely.

How are these truthfully not enough bad things to make reloading during combat not only a last choice but an amazingly hazardous choice, that I personally would never try and never have tried during combat in a table top game. And Some of our table time games last 50+ turns or better where we take pictures and play over multiple days. But then one of our GM's is a bastardge that likes us to run empty and damaged during fights.

So, per canon rearming during combat is allowed and has severe penalties and danger involved. I would love to have it in game. My only concern is that the Dev's won't make it as dangerous as TT. No free powerups or free ammo ever please. Plus my other fear is that it will take away from the base game being developed. I would wait for this till after launch but I do expect it to happen eventually same as full melee combat.

Chris

[Vexgrave Lars]

You've mentioned all the cool in game match stuff below.. and 1 billion cookies award, its organized and well developed...
1. 8% per ton loaded of ammo exploding (Conditional to combat conditions)
2. If hit in back while reloading all ammo explodes(Conditional to combat conditions)
3. must be shut down entire time (Conditional to combat conditions)
4. reloading mech must also be immobile and is in same area as mech being reloaded so takes all ammo explosion just as mech being reloaded does. (Conditional to combat conditions)
5. Takes 30 or 50 seconds to reload. (Conditional to combat conditions)
6. Imagine it will not be near front lines for obvious danger close reasons meaning Mech that wants to be reloaded will be out of combat for an extended part of game. (Conditional to combat conditions)
7. Mech going to be reloaded will need possibly 1-3 mechs to safely reload, note Number 1 happens no matter what, so safely doesn't mean safely. (Conditional to combat conditions)

But again, what does it COST a player outside of combat conditions to buy this rig, manage it, maintain it and its cargo, control it and HOW does it work? You've constructed the goal, now get the road to it. Think development specifications, as much as in game rules. How do the devs implement it without crippling the balances that already exist. and do it, without impacting the launch date.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 07 April 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Implementation on Mobile Field Base for purpose of reloading ammunition ONLY in MWO:
Criteria: The 3049 prototype MFB will consist of the following: (Outside Canon to enhance gameplay)
A single vehicle, tracked, with a 40/60 kph movement capability with a small laser.
It is capable of carrying 24 (presumptive) tons of ammunition. (2 tons per mech roughly)
Ammo in the vehicle is determined by the owner of the module controlling it at launch/drop
It will be extremely vulnerable with light armor.
Combat effects: During a match what can happen:
1. 8% per ton loaded of ammo exploding (Conditional to combat conditions)
2. If hit in back while reloading all ammo explodes (Conditional to combat conditions)
3. must be shut down entire time (Conditional to combat conditions)
4. Reloading mech must also be immobile and is in same area as mech being reloaded so takes all ammo explosion just as mech being reloaded does. (Conditional to combat conditions)
5. Takes 20 (simplification) seconds to reload per ton. (Conditional to combat conditions)

Maintenance and management:
Only one MFB can be on a field per company of mechs.
A commander must manage the motion of the vehicle.
A commander controls the interface through a context submenu and a map nav point.
If a commander in control is destroyed, the MFB can no longer be given orders and becomes a static vehicle.
New control can only be passed if another commander on the same force, has the module plugged in.
It cost X C-bills (expensive) to load and launch the vehicle, plus the cost of the ammo it contains.
At the end of a match, all remaining ammo is lost, as it is dumped.
The MFB and its control interface are one of the plug-ins a commander can use (integration).
A successful attack against and destruction of the MFB generates X experience for the opposition.
The experience is gained even is the MFB is empty.
In Game Use:
A Mech must shutdown to reload
it takes 20 seconds per ton to load the ammo
Mechs cannot manually restart while loading (safety issues ) They cannot abort a reload in process.
Simple kneeling/shutdown graphic while loading (same as shutdown for overheat).
The MFB cannot move while reloading.
The MFB must be on level ground to start a reload procedure.
The MFB tonnage is used when calculating drop mass.

Expected Player Activities

1. Imagine it will not be near front lines for obvious danger close reasons meaning Mech that wants to be reloaded will be out of combat for an extended part of game. (Conditional to combat conditions)
2. Mech going to be reloaded will need possibly 1-3 mechs to safely reload, note Number 1 happens no matter what, so safely doesn't mean safely. (Conditional to combat conditions)
3. Make the Defense/Assault of the MFB a Secondary objective in all match and game modes.

These are the types of criteria I'm talking about, which include yours Ogre.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 07 April 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Lycan]

Post removed as it was answered by Vex while I was typing up my reply.

Edited by Lycan, 07 April 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[Graefin Zeppelin]

[Archtus]

That looks pretty well thought out, and well balanced.

Especially the potential fireworks show a scout like me can bring about because of it.

[wwiiogre]

Vex,

I don't have to do anything, the Dev's can if they want to. I don't expect them to but would like it if they did. I was trying to respond to the original OP and to you with what is already canon and in TT and how there are already negatives built in for reloading during combat. How the ammo gets there, what it costs is totally up to PGI, whether it belongs to player, belongs to warehouse or neutral or is part of a J27 Packrat cargo hauler or in an Engineering vehicle with a crane or hoist is entirely upto PGI to figure out. I just pointed out its in game already for TT, it has severe penalties for using which the enemy can make worse. Your opposition to free reloads I totally concur with. No free reloads, no magic power up boxes. No magic armor repairs. But in a sim where canon TT already has an existing resource with penalties it could and should be implemented. Possibly for only certain maps and missions. Plus the players should have to pay for it and thru the nose. Not just the ammo, but to pay the crew that is exposing themselves in an unarmored cargo carrier in the middle of battle. I imagine they want to be paid no matter what and upfront whether you use their services or not. Plus you got to pay for them to even travel to the battle site. At least I always had to during table top campaigns if I didn't have my own drop ship or cargo haulers or even crew to do the work. Nothing is free nor should it be.

chris

[Vexgrave Lars]

Its cool Ogre.. were on the same page.. I just dont like shady request and exceptions... Not yours..the "uber"brella some people have talking about vs a feasible construct. You seem to lean toward practical, which I'm fine by.

I just want a whole plate for consumption, not a platter of mismatched cracker snacks. That ambiguity is a leading cause of strife in the wilds of the boards. I love the idea.. I think it could fit, but I can't get behind it piecemeal, without the "how" is it to be done? and what the outcomes are to be. (Note I appreciate all the patience)

Do I think it would fit this version we're looking forward to, no, the time and software constraints to develop are too far reaching, particularly with a general public consensus that shows a lot of concern for the end result, both expectations and aversions.

But it should be in the suggestion box (WHICH IT AINT?!!??! WHAT??!? or I can't find it I'm tired, 16 hours on a troubleshooting call plus this) for an update later when the bugs can be reasonably ironed out. No doubt.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 07 April 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[wwiiogre]

I have already heard the Dev's answer to this question, it is they want it in, won't be at launch will work for it later. Pretty much the standard Dev answer to most of what we want. The more PGI reveals about how the game is going to work the more I like and the more I realize they are asking and answering the hard questions already. Plus they are staying close to TT while making it work in a sim. Its a compromise and they appear to be doing a great job of that so far. I almost feel I can trust them, well except the Troll who shall not be named for he draws power when you utter his name or some such drivel.

Almost joined the 1st Robinson Rangers but went with the Northwind Highlanders, the call of the pipes are to hard to resist.

chris

[Howlin Wolf]

I'm glad resupply won't be in to start. If the ammo tonnage wasn't brought to the battle guess its less firepower when the skimper runs out..

[Archtus]

I wonder... A scout mech with an Arty beacon... Their assault is reloading, and two heavies are playing guard duty a little too close... "Artillery strike in bound."

That'd be a heck of a kill. (dreams away)

[Spectere]

I agree with the limited re-supply at MFB's/ammo dumps. I also think MFB's/ammo dumps should be flammable and worth victory points .

Edited by Spectere, 07 April 2012 - 09:35 PM.

[JP Josh]

as a Russian arty player in WoT i know from experience you can still be of use even after you run out of ammo you become a ramming scout or mobile shield.

this said i am in support of resupplying for some maps if they are big enough. and it has to cost you more in the end for pulling away front line supply's. however the defending players that have a well stocked ammo storage unit nearby should run the risk of losing it. but only if its part of a first thrust type of battle. and defenders dont have the extra cost of front line resupply if they have a nearby Permanent base.

[LordDeathStrike]

no reloads, put more ammo in your mech if you run out too much. ammo truck = repair facilities if you add them, theyll want the other too.

once you have objects that can repair and reload you on the field, people start camping them instead of doing objectives or finishing off that last guy that needs to die to end the game, because they are too scared to leave their safety line of the ammo truck or repair bay.

best solution is to hot drop us onto maps that dont have repair bays and ammo reloaders. ps reloading a mech doesnt involve walking up to a pile of bullets, it requires cranes, personel, and opening up the sections of the mech where ammo is stored, all in all it can take hours to reload a mechs ammo, for a game with 20 minute matches.

less arcade more sim pls.

[Motionless]

Join infinite ammo mode -- everyone is just using lasers -- get criticaled and your ammo explodes -- infinite ammo does infinite damage -- now you know why everyone was using lasers.