593 replies to this topic

[Vexgrave Lars]

So then are you suggesting that what? That during a 30 minute match, John Q Hillbilly will be chasing a combat company around in a panel truck. He gets a ladder and a spot welder and slap some plates on? While his brothers, Daryl and Daryl cram in a ton of ammo over 15 minutes of the match?

Ever see the end of The Benny Hill show..

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 07 April 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[JesterFox86]

I say if you run out you run out and you should have to try and retreat from the field to Re arm, I also think that you are considered an open target while getting re armed at a mobile base of some sort so dont enter unless the area is clear

[verybad]

Vexgrave Lars, on 07 April 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

So then are you suggesting that what? That during a 30 minute match, John Q Hillbilly will be chasing a combat company around in a panel truck. He gets a ladder and a spot welder and slap some plates on? While his brothers, Daryl and Daryl cram in a ton of ammo over 15 minutes of the match?

Ever see the end of The Benny Hill show..

Well an elite tech team can rearm a mech with one ton of ammo in 6 minutes. Ones with exoskeletons or industrial mechs in 3 (an omni in 90 seconds). In TT rules.

However having an ammo truck on the map that players must return to and or protect from being blown up or captured by the opposing force would be an excellent tactical addition to the game.

Rather than arguing that it's impossible because...

How about thinking of defending your ammo truck while trying to mount an offensive, or sending scouts to find the op forces ammo truck while your big boys pin them down. Maybe you've got to defend a wounded Atlas as it shambles back to the ammo truck in order to bring it's firepower to bear again?

All those sound like fun to me...

More tactical asects to the battlefield make it a better game.

You can't travel between planets instantly in TT either, but that isn't played out in turns by players. The GM says ok, you're there.

So why are you arguing against something that would make the game deeper?

Just let players run back to their base and reammo, make them shut down for say 10-15 seconds, then they've got ammo again.

You're not necessarilly playing out the entire capture of a world when you capture one in the game. It's a 20 minute or so game, capturing a world takes much longer. So why not simulate one aspect of that into MWO?

I'm not calling for unlimited ammo, just a way to reload while playign the game, in a way that makes it fun.

Edited by verybad, 07 April 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[wwiiogre]

It does not take 15 minutes to reload, it takes 30 seconds to reload in the field with a cargo hauler and 50 seconds in the field with a mech with hands and the appropriate ammo per ton.

Tactical Operations page 213 Rearming Under Fire:
States use the Loading and Unloading rules under Cargo Carriers (see p. 261 Total Warfare) with the following changes:

*The correct type of ammunition must be used to rearm and must be on a unit in the same or adjacent hex to the unit being loaded.

*For each three turns (a turn in Table top is equal to Ten seconds), 1 ton of ammunition is loaded.

*For each 1 ton of ammo successfully loaded, the controlling player immediately rolls 2d6. On a result of 11 or 12 or a 3 in 36 chance or rounded down a 1 in 12 chance or just over 8% the ammunition explodes, just as if it was hit by an attack; this represents the extreme haste with which the ammo is being loaded.

*If a player is attempting to load a mech and no other mech is available to do the loading then it takes 5 turns or 50 seconds to load one ton of ammo. For a mech to be available for this rearming, it must have one of the following: a working hand actuator on an arm where all actuators are active or a working lift hoist or a working salvage arm.

*If loading a unit where the unit cannot be in the same hex, then it must be in the rear facing hex of the unit to be loaded.

The unit being loaded as well as the unit or units doing the loading are all considered immobile targets during the entire reloading process, with a -4 to hit penalty applied to all the units (the largest negative in the game).

(NOW the REALLY BIG KICKER)

*Any hit against the unit being loaded on any rear location ... inflicts normal damage, but it also causes ALL AMMUNITION in the target unit to EXPLODE..

Now I didn't type the entire rules verbatim but only left out things that TT needs not what or could be transferred over to a sim in real time like this game.

So those are the TT canon rules for the currently used game. 30 seconds and 50 seconds in the field during combat. Which is what the OP is asking about. Now reloading in a mech bay outside of combat has completely different rules and times and those would not apply to this situation other than any repairs are so time consuming that they really couldn't matter to a game that may last only 20 minutes.

Now PGI has said no bots or AI for launch that means no possible way to reload or rearm or repair in game for launch as I see it. Would I like to see this in the future. Absolutely, could it be a game winning strategy or a crutch. It could be, but if you get caught rearming in a space next to ammo and it goes boom, so does your mech. And in a game where we know there will be Arty, Naval Gun Fire, and Aero strafing as well as info warfare with sneaky scouts moving about and indirect LRM fire. I know I would not want to be caught with my pants down and ammo exposed during incoming fire, cause that is immediate death by explosion. An Archer with 6 reloads of LRM20 per side or 12 reloads would take 6 minutes to reload and if that ammo or Archer gets hit in the arse during the reload all of that ammo goes boom for 240 points of damage. Killing that Archer since all that damage goes in the back then into center torso.

So with the drastic penalty of death and I mean total death for getting caught reloading and the fact the mech has to shut down and will have no sensors up and no idea if death is sneaking up on him. I have no problem with this. None at all and as a scout in a Jenner I would be snooping around the backside of the enemies formation waiting for just this situation to not only smoke one of their Support mechs for free, but to also take out their supply cache or steal it if possible.

I especially would love my enemy to be pulling mechs off the line to go rearm during the middle of a battle, cause under the above circumstances they have to pull out the mech out of ammo and another mech to reload that mech meaning now two mechs are immobile and standing in a pile of explosives, to do it well they would also need to pull out at least two more mechs to stand guard. So a whole lance has to pull out of combat to reload a single mech safely(wait did I mention there is a chance to go boom at 8% per ton). So semi safely.

Yeah, I have no problem with this if PGI does it even semi close to how it is handled in the Table Top rules.

So no worries, our team will watch for your team pulling people out of the line and if you don't blow yourselves up at least we can give you a hand and we can all stand back and watch the mech mushroom or doom where your ammo cache used to be.

Chris

Edited by wwiiogre, 07 April 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

verybad, on 07 April 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Well an elite tech team can rearm a mech with one ton of ammo in 6 minutes. Ones with exoskeletons or industrial mechs in 3 (an omni in 90 seconds). In TT rules.

However having an ammo truck on the map that players must return to and or protect from being blown up or captured by the opposing force would be an excellent tactical addition to the game.

Rather than arguing that it's impossible because...

How about thinking of defending your ammo truck while trying to mount an offensive, or sending scouts to find the op forces ammo truck while your big boys pin them down. Maybe you've got to defend a wounded Atlas as it shambles back to the ammo truck in order to bring it's firepower to bear again?

All those sound like fun to me...

More tactical asects to the battlefield make it a better game.

You can't travel between planets instantly in TT either, but that isn't played out in turns by players. The GM says ok, you're there.

So why are you arguing against something that would make the game deeper?

Just let players run back to their base and reammo, make them shut down for say 10-15 seconds, then they've got ammo again.

You're not necessarilly playing out the entire capture of a world when you capture one in the game. It's a 20 minute or so game, capturing a world takes much longer. So why not simulate one aspect of that into MWO?

I'm not calling for unlimited ammo, just a way to reload while playign the game, in a way that makes it fun.

6 Minutes.. is 1/5th of a match with a 30 Minute match.
Should the pilot be able to do a clean abort if he's attacked, should he get a partial reload? or None?
See the human mechanic of the Game doing all this is fine.. an elite squad, that's great, who's paying for that elite squad? How much? How does that fit into the economy of the game? Who owns it? Can he order it not to repair lance mate "Z" cause he hates "Z" for being snide on a mic?

What everybody seems to be forgetting, is that with each choice an action should come an opportunity cost.. nothing is free.
You get X by sacrificing Y.

You want 30 Tons of gear dropped, whats the cost? You sacrifice weight in your company on a mech (please do start the flambe here).
I will concede that your saying a risk is involved is a great start... Long as there's more to it (Keep going, I'm not entirely convinced yet)

You want to reload, whats the cost? Time, and vulnerability sure, but is the extent worth the risk? I wouldn't give up 5-6 minutes of a match to reload, nope.

We should never feel entitled to expect an enhancement to our lives without the coinciding effort that goes with earning it, or paying a price to those doing the work on our behalf.

wwiiogre, on 07 April 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

It does not take 15 minutes to reload, it takes 30 seconds to reload in the field with a cargo hauler and 50 seconds in the field with a mech with hands and the appropriate ammo per ton.

Tactical Operations page 213 Rearming Under Fire:
States use the Loading and Unloading rules under Cargo Carriers (see p. 261 Total Warfare) with the following changes:

*The correct type of ammunition must be used to rearm and must be on a unit in the same or adjacent hex to the unit being loaded.

*For each three turns (a turn in Table top is equal to Ten seconds), 1 ton of ammunition is loaded.

*For each 1 ton of ammo successfully loaded, the controlling player immediately rolls 2d6. On a result of 11 or 12 or a 3 in 36 chance or rounded down a 1 in 12 chance or just over 8% the ammunition explodes, just as if it was hit by an attack; this represents the extreme haste with which the ammo is being loaded.

*If a player is attempting to load a mech and no other mech is available to do the loading then it takes 5 turns or 50 seconds to load one ton of ammo. For a mech to be available for this rearming, it must have one of the following: a working hand actuator on an arm where all actuators are active or a working lift hoist or a working salvage arm.

*If loading a unit where the unit cannot be in the same hex, then it must be in the rear facing hex of the unit to be loaded.

The unit being loaded as well as the unit or units doing the loading are all considered immobile targets during the entire reloading process, with a -4 to hit penalty applied to all the units (the largest negative in the game).

(NOW the REALLY BIG KICKER)

*Any hit against the unit being loaded on any rear location ... inflicts normal damage, but it also causes ALL AMMUNITION in the target unit to EXPLODE..

Now I didn't type the entire rules verbatim but only left out things that TT needs not what or could be transferred over to a sim in real time like this game.

So those are the TT canon rules for the currently used game. 30 seconds and 50 seconds in the field during combat. Which is what the OP is asking about. Now reloading in a mech bay outside of combat has completely different rules and times and those would not apply to this situation other than any repairs are so time consuming that they really couldn't matter to a game that may last only 20 minutes.

Now PGI has said no bots or AI for launch that means no possible way to reload or rearm or repair in game for launch as I see it. Would I like to see this in the future. Absolutely, could it be a game winning strategy or a crutch. It could be, but if you get caught rearming in a space next to ammo and it goes boom, so does your mech. And in a game where we know there will be Arty, Naval Gun Fire, and Aero strafing as well as info warfare with sneaky scouts moving about and indirect LRM fire. I know I would not want to be caught with my pants down and ammo exposed during incoming fire, cause that is immediate death by explosion. An Archer with 6 reloads of LRM20 per side or 12 reloads would take 6 minutes to reload and if that ammo or Archer gets hit in the arse during the reload all of that ammo goes boom for 240 points of damage. Killing that Archer since all that damage goes in the back then into center torso.

So with the drastic penalty of death and I mean total death for getting caught reloading and the fact the mech has to shut down and will have no sensors up and no idea if death is sneaking up on him. I have no problem with this. None at all and as a scout in a Jenner I would be snooping around the backside of the enemies formation waiting for just this situation to not only smoke one of their Support mechs for free, but to also take out their supply cache or steal it if possible.

I especially would love my enemy to be pulling mechs off the line to go rearm during the middle of a battle, cause under the above circumstances they have to pull out the mech out of ammo and another mech to reload that mech meaning now two mechs are immobile and standing in a pile of explosives, to do it well they would also need to pull out at least two more mechs to stand guard. So a whole lance has to pull out of combat to reload a single mech safely(wait did I mention there is a chance to go boom at 8% per ton). So semi safely.

Yeah, I have no problem with this if PGI does it even semi close to how it is handled in the Table Top rules.

So no worries, our team will watch for your team pulling people out of the line and if you don't blow yourselves up at least we can give you a hand and we can all stand back and watch the mech mushroom or doom where your ammo cache used to be.

Chris

Man.. the Dev's have said.. no death.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

This is what fast mediums were made for - sniping round the edges of the fight until they see a Heavy or Assault going to rearm. As said above - bonus time.Especially if it's 2 of them. I'd trade a medium (assuming I got unlucky) for 2 assaults any day.

[GrimFist]

Ammo runs out. If it does not or u can always spray and pray and go resupply it ruins the balance.

If we dont do that a bunch of snipers with gauss rifles will camp near their resupply point. And the shorter range ppc and laser guys are going to never get an equalizer.

There is a reason why most mechs have some lasers on them.

[wwiiogre]

Yeah but if you are the attacker and you camp your supply depot with your heavy hitters, Guess what you aren't doing. You aren't winning the match or completing the objectives.

I know there is no death, but having a completely destroyed mech during a battle is close enough and I personally don't want that to happen to me ever. I would take it as a total cluster frac if it does happen and it would mean either someone was very very good or I did something incredibly stupid.

Chris

[Vexgrave Lars]

And which of the Dev's should we pull off his current group of tasks to put all these mechanics/graphics together? Anyone?

That's the cost...that worries me most.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 07 April 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[verybad]

Vexgrave Lars, on 07 April 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

6 Minutes.. is 1/5th of a match with a 30 Minute match.
Should the pilot be able to do a clean abort if he's attacked, should he get a partial reload? or None?
See the human mechanic of the Game doing all this is fine.. an elite squad, that's great, who's paying for that elite squad? How much? How does that fit into the economy of the game? Who owns it? Can he order it not to repair lance mate "Z" cause he hates "Z" for being snide on a mic?

did you read my entire post?

Where not playing the game to simulate TT rules however. We're playing the game to siimulate Battlemech combat.

It absolutely doesn't matter if it takes a bit longer in TT rules. The tactical aspect of ammo trucks being on the battlefield would improve the game, make it deeper.

You seem to be arguing against ammo trucks being in the game, despite the obvious tactical improvement they could add. Why? Just because it takes a certain amount of time in TT isn't a very good reason. Put more options in the game for tactical actions and you end up with a better game.

I for one don't want to play 12v12 deathmatch only. Other options are command trucks and radar trucks, capturable, deployable, and destroyable options would be fun.. Maybe you need to have a commander call in a command truck at a specific location and hold that location for a specific time to win a match?

TT rules aren't the be all end all. The provide an ample and well designed path, but if you can improve MWO by bending (and no ammo trucks that can reload you durign a match aren't breaking) the rules, then do so.

Another option would be during the dropship matches you can drive one mech to an ammo truck, then use another mech while the first is reloading, perhaps even getting some repairs. If you have 4 different mechs to use during a match, then you have to decide how long to keep each one in the thick of things...

Edited by verybad, 07 April 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

verybad, on 07 April 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

did you read my entire post?

Where not playing the game to simulate TT rules however. We're playing the game to siimulate Battlemech combat.

It absolutely doesn't matter if it takes a bit longer in TT rules. The tactical aspect of ammo trucks being on the battlefield would improve the game, make it deeper.

You seem to be arguing against ammo trucks being in the game, despite the obvious tactical improvement they could add. Why? Just because it takes a certain amount of time in TT isn't a very good reason. Put more options in the game for tactical actions and you end up with a better game.

I for one don't want to play 12v12 deathmatch only. Other options are command trucks and radar trucks, capturable, deployable, and destroyable options would be fun.. Maybe you need to have a commander call in a command truck at a specific location and hold that location for a specific time to win a match?

TT rules aren't the be all end all. The provide an ample and well designed path, but if you can improve MWO by bending (and no ammo trucks that can reload you durign a match aren't breaking) the rules, then do so.

And which of the Dev's should we pull off his current group of tasks to put all these mechanics/graphics together?

That's the cost...that worries me most.

And anything else they can make easier for you while they're at it? Perhaps some self sealing armor?

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 07 April 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Odin]

I say, we rearm during missions.
This brings the overall best dynamic into play and gets us a more realistic gameplay.

Or
any ammo depending weapon will have to be extremely powerful during a 20 minutes match.
You have to make sure your "damage over time" is high enough.



//edit in balance and essence to other weapon types

Edited by Odin, 07 April 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[Lethal Joke]

Mobile Field Base. Not to say that getting there and actually reloading should be easy. There should be the risk involved with stopping long enough to put more missiles and AC rounds into a several story tall machine.

[wwiiogre]

No Mobile Field Bases per canon till 3059 for Davion and Steiner and for Coyote in 3060, later for others. So no miracle fixing and reloading in game, not quite yet and even when MFB's are available they actually don't speed up the repair only allow it to happen over the standard times.

Sorry Lethal Joke, is that the funniest joke ever heard, the one so funny it could kill an army?

chris

[ILostMySpoon]

In my opinion, those who choose weapons that use ammo should at least have the foresight to carry a few extra tons of it so the have a chance of making it through a prolonged firefight.

Say if you're playing a 12v12 and your Atlas runs dry and you have no energy weapon backups, wouldn't you want to go out helping your team by using your own, now useless, 'mech as a walking 'meat' shield to keep some of the heat off your teammates?

Allowing ammo depletion would warrant such feats of courageousness on the battlefield. Even so, Ammo resupplies should be allowed in some game scenarios, such as defending your team's base from the enemy.

[Vexgrave Lars]

So we have totally forgotten then that a mechanic exist for this.. its called sacrificing armor or speed for ammo, like a laser mech has to sacrifice armor or speed for heatsinks?

You want your mech to LAND fully armed, and then get more, more, not as much with any equitability but more. With no sacrifice, so far the potential costs I've seen, pretty fracking weak. If you get the magic more, what concessions to you plan to give energy heavy players to balance it? Coolant trucks? Icecream to keep us cooler?

Keep trying.. its sounds great from the top down, it sounds like *****, looking up from the bowl.

IMHO

[Archtus]

Vexgrave Lars, on 07 April 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

And anything else they can make easier for you while they're at it? Perhaps some self sealing armor?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/HarJel has it's own issues...

Edited by Archtus, 07 April 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Archtus, on 07 April 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/HarJel has it's own issues...

Well at least its balanced... and far far off

[William Petersen]

Vexgrave Lars, on 07 April 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

Well at least its balanced... and far far off

Did you even read it? All HarJel does is make sure sections don't breach from armour damage (while armour remains) while underwater.


EDIT: Spelling error.

Edited by William Petersen, 07 April 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

William Petersen, on 07 April 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Did you even read it? All HarJel does is make sure sections don't breach from armour damage (while armour remains) while underwater.


EDIT: Spelling error.

Yep I read it.. looks balanced to me, and 10 years away while underwater. HAHAHAH