593 replies to this topic

[wwiiogre]

yep static gantries at a warehouse at a forward base or main fort or on a dropship or in a factory. The point being you can reload during a battle in game but it is very dangerous. Normal reloading is based on skill of the cargo crew and can take from 6 minutes to 15 minutes per ton of ammo. In a game which lasts 15-20 minutes that really doesn't work. With combat reloading the tabletop rules say it takes 30 seconds per ton with a cargo loader and 50 seconds per ton if a second mech with fully working arms and hands is loading. But there is an 8% chance per each ton loaded during combat conditions of an ammunition explosion, which in all likelihood will kill the mech being loaded. Plus the mech has to be shut down, plus if while being loaded the mech takes any damage to the rear torso then all ammo loaded and being loaded explodes and once again kills the mech. In my several decades of playing this game on tabletop I have never used nor allowed any of my players to combat load ammo, because it is to dangerous and could cost us the mission. I have seen others use it and some reloaded and some didn't giving us the easy win when two of their mechs were destroyed cause one was loading the other. But hey if people want the candy, sometimes they got to risk being caught with their pants down.

chris

[LackofCertainty]

boxofaids, on 14 April 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

While this is a legitimate and well-argued point, I could say just the opposite: why take an extra ton of ammo instead of armor if you'll just die before getting to use it, since you didn't take extra armor?

I just feel like you'd eat through your heavy rounds really quick at the start of a match, so if it gets drawn out, you're less likely to have some for later, while you would probably still have some ammo left for SRMs or smaller ACs just because your team has energy weapons working on killing enemies at the same time, and it takes longer to go through your ammo. IMO, you're far more likely to be facing enemies with no ammo on your big guns than on your smaller guns just because you don't use 1/16 of your ammo each shot. But like I said, that's your choice to run out of ammo that quickly, since you get the huge DPS.

If 1 ton of armor is making the difference between you living and dieing in your average game, then you don't need the extra ton of ammo. If you find yourself running dry and then living for another 5 minute in most of your matches, then you either: 1) need to strip a ton of armor for extra ammo or 2) you need to get more efficient with your ammo.


The core mechanics of Battletech are balanced around the weapons. If you add in easy reloads in the field, you give a massive bonus to ammo dependant weapons (especially to LRM) If the devs implement easy reloads, then what's the point of using lasers?

If the devs implement ridiculously punishing reloads (as some suggest) then so few people would use them that it is a waste of dev time.

The final nail in the coffin for reloads, in my opinion, is game length. We're not playing some persistant/hours-long matches. At launch we are going to have 20 minute deathmatches. 20 minutes isn't a lot of time, so why would you want to add in a mechanic that removes players from the battle for a significant chunk of time instead of just encouraging them to customize their mech to fit their needs? Don't trick new players into thinking they can skimp on ammo. Get them used to the idea of loading their mech with enough ammo so they can last. If they run dry early in a fight, that's a very good incentive for them to throw on some extra reloads before their next match.


Edit: I feel like a lot of "there must be reloads!" stems from people not understanding how battletech balances weapons.

Compare the Large laser and the AC 10.

AC 10
damage = 10
weight = 12
uses reload

LL
damage = 8
weight = 5
no reloads

A lot of people look at the two stat blocks and say, "***? LL's are way better! I can mount 2 LL's for every AC 10 and I don't have to worry about ammo. IMBA!" The problem with that line of thinking is this:

AC 10
heat = 3

LL
heat = 8

While the AC 10 weighs more than 2x LL, the LL produces more than 2x AC-10's heat. This means that Laser heavy mechs have to waste tonnage on heatsinks, thus maintaining the balance. If you remove the penalty for ballistics (weight) then you make lasers pointless. In the same way, if heat isn't properly punishing, then ballistics become useless. The solution is to let the devs get the core systems (weight/heat ballistics/lasers) balanced, not to throw a patch job onto the system by giving free reloads or coolant dumps.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 16 April 2012 - 12:20 PM.

[Fachxphyre]

have to make ammo reserves finite to preserve balance, allowing in-match reloads removes the balance. also stresses the importance of choosing targets and shots carefully.

[Zynk]

I would love to have unlimited ammo in an Archer but only if I was the only player to have that option.

Running out of ammo is a risk you take when you choose that weapon. Once you're out, you're out.

[Alphadeadone]

I'm of the reload at a mobile field opinion. this is only if it takes south time to do so and if the mobile can be taken out. Gives the light fast mechs a target to hunt down as fast as they can.

[Dirk Le Daring]

I hope you are being sarcastic...

Dihm, on 16 April 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

I think there should be ammo boxes and speed boosts and stuff you can run over to get powered up.

Because I would give the game a miss if this was implemented

[Yeach]

Stock mechs variants SHOULD have enough ammunition that they do not need to reload during a single battle (not campaign).
Agree/Disagree?

[Nik Van Rhijn]

This comes down to the devs decision on balancing as to whether they go with the standard BT amounts or wish to increase it slightly. We will find out what they've decided when we get to Beta. Whatever they choose to do will get yells of disagreement from one sector or another of the playerbase. If they've sped up recycle times and lowered damage then I would assume ammo counts will be increased in line.

Pilots who take care with their shots may end a match with rounds left. Those who blaze away as fast as they can pull the trigger will run out in a few minutes, that doesn't necessarily mean that ammo counts are too low.

Other than the Awesome all the mechs shown so far (in their "Prime" config) have ammo based weapons, so ammo quantity will be an important balancing factor. Perhaps they intend matches to come down to pilots using their medium lasers at the end?

[Steel Talon]

There are amo only base mechs, plenty of them.
What are they suppsed to do when battle takes longer than expected?

[Ghosth]

It "has" to be #1, however #2 is an option. Forward area rearm/refuel points exist now, they certainly would exist in the future. However you can make it hard to reach (for gameplay balance)

Knowing a weapon can run out of ammo is a huge part of the balance.

[wpmaura]

when your out your out tough ****. If a map happens to have a farp good on ya, if not your sol.

[barcode]

Option 1, but option 2 on larger/longer game modes, I say.

Edited by barcode, 17 April 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[Paladin1]

kargush, on 10 April 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

I'm a fan of the Hunchback.

10 shots for the AC20. I had better be a good shot then.

Tell me about it. Plus that's if you're using the stock HBK-4G version. The "upgraded" version only has 5 salvos for the AC/20 because it adds CASE to the ammo bin and upgrades the Small Laser to a Small Pulse Laser. Welcome to what us old timers call STS; Shiny Toy Syndrome.

[Ghosth]

Yeach, on 16 April 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Stock mechs variants SHOULD have enough ammunition that they do not need to reload during a single battle (not campaign).
Agree/Disagree?

Disagree, comes down to player skill and how you use what you have.
If your a 14yr old and walk out shooting everything in sight you NEED to run out of ammo and die, quickly. Period.

If you want to mount that AC you need to figure ammo into that.

However, I do have an issue with AC ammo, as they seem to think it takes a ton of ammo for 20 shots.

People, your not shooting huge howitzer shells here!

20 40mm rounds no matter how powerful are not going to weight a ton. In order for them to do so, each individual shell would have to weigh 100 lbs.

So IMO this might be one of those places where canon gets "bent" slightly for gameplay considerations.

Taking for example, a 5 inch naval gun, the Projectile weighs 54 pounds, the powder charge for it another 15lbs. So even these do not weigh 100lbs each.

Edited by Ghosth, 17 April 2012 - 05:11 AM.

[EmCeeKhan]

Man, that was a long read.

Anyway, I agree with a lot of people about how ammo should be handled, and that is "if you're out, and we're on a map with no resupply, you planned poorly." Seriously, if we're allowed to change out armor and weapons for extra ammo, then there's no excuse for wasting all your ballistics without killing one or two other Mechs.

I'd say there should be a resupply option on some campaign maps, but those should the exception, not the rule. And no field repairs to armor or wasted systems. That would take forever - you'd come back in, shut down and wait 5 mintues. By then, the other team has already overrun your position. Sometimes, just holding a position and losing the Mech is more sensible than running away to get repaired. Some of the greatest battles are between a heavily damaged 'Mech with a superior pilot holding off one or two green pilots in barely damaged 'Mechs.

If you are a good pilot, you'll figure out how to bluff and impede the enemy long enough for back up to show up, even if your ammo is seriously low/gone.

[MaddMaxx]

steel talon, on 17 April 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

There are ammo only base mechs, plenty of them.

Not yet there isn't. No need to worry about that which is yet to exist.

Quote

What are they supposed to do when battle takes longer than expected?

Perhaps think ahead, add an extra ton of your fave and then chill on the Trigger...

[Korbyn McColl]

If you can get to a friendly mobile field base you should be able to resupply, but the rate should be gradual (realistic) and if an enemy mech blasts the depot you're resupplying from...well...big explosions can be very painful....

[Steel Talon]

U need to power down to resupply, offline mech is better practice target than ammoless pilot that changes pulling a trigger for insulting teamates in chat! (& less anoying!)

[Mason Ventris]

Hello!? Ammunition is what keeps everyone from being happy trigger fingererereerers.

[Mardek]

im an hard liner here, NO rearm. when u are out of ammo its ur fault.... you can always ram or jump-jetting in face of the enemy Mech tho