734 replies to this topic

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Jack Gallows, on 11 November 2011 - 10:46 PM, said:

Trying to pick out a Chain of Command seems futile, especially with the influx of new players that will appear who all have their different ideas on who should do what.

Well the ultimate objective (until we know more about game mechanics) is to provide players (that want it) with an organized, military-esque experience that is framed around their oh-so-beloved BT universe. It provides immersion and, more importantly, it lets people be part of something bigger and better organized than just joining up a pub match and working on your KDR. It is a form of role-play. On that merit alone, I am 100% in favor of putting together a CoC. However....

The crucial aspect of this discussion will really come to the fore when the actual function of game mechanics is revealed. If the players can have a real impact on the direction of the war (see Battleground Europe for a good example of player CoC efficacy, or inefficacy depending on who you ask) then establishing a strong command system will be crucial to being successful and prosecuting an efficient campaign. Why is THAT important? Balance. Nobody likes to play a game where one side clearly overpowers the other. If the success/failure of House Davion's military exploits truly ends up resting on the heads of the players - then it will be important to put our best and most dedicated minds forward because the other Houses will do exactly the same.

The ideal goal I see is a robust competition between the commands of all the factions that keeps the Inner Sphere interesting and provides players a way to get involved in that narrative - at whatever level they are comfortable with. I hate to mention it again, but my time as an officer in AHC as a Battleground Europe player showed me just what a playerbase is capable of when they come together and get organized. It really adds an awesome aspect to the game and I would love to see it make an appearance in MWO.

Edit: This might be a great way to get some early discussion done: http://mwomercs.com/...c-unit-meeting/

Edited by lahyenne, 04 January 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[LordRush]

I would think since their are three different game aspects that one of them would almost require a COC.

Edited by LordRush, 05 January 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Kerensky K Reg Army]

Supremacist, on 03 January 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

>Kerensky *K* <Reg Army> AFFS
>[MPBT] Simba
mfw
I ****en knew it!

hahahaha...kept you guessin huh?

[Azantia]

I can see this topic coming up more and more prior to the game's release. Only thing I can say is : Watch the egos and e-peens come out of the woodwork. I would be willing to put money down on the fact that the most vocal players on this topic could give two ***** about "the good of the house/faction" and care more about serving their ego/increasing the size of their e-peen and maintaining their status-quo of percieved greatness. Dont believe me, just take one of the guys that lead successful units and ask him, if there was another leader, who could do what you did, only better, would you step down and once again be a regular mechwarrior under his command? Now on paper, all of them would say yes, but in reality, they would argue semantics, talk about accomplishments (embellished i am sure) and look to their lancemates and long time gaming buddies for support, it is the nature of people, but that is in fact, my opinion.

Have I lead troops in battletech / mechwarrior combat? Yes. Have I lead gaming communities, units, outfits and guilds in other games? Yes. Have I lead troops in REAL combat. Yes. The difference between me and them? I wouldnt be ignorant enough to state that I am more suited to leadership of any form until I can look around on my left and my right and see the capabilities of the rest of my unit, or community.

Personally, I believe that these individuals that have "been there, done that" or lead successful groups in the past will overlook great leaders and great pilots because they didnt serve with them before, or never heard of their names. A seriously disappointing but very probable future. In fact any good leader should realize that a units reputation, and overall skill will always be based upon its weakest member or most outspoken and unbearable personality. Futher more, a groups success is determined more by its core membership than by its leadership. A group with a solid core under moderately capable leadership will be more successful than a group with a weak core and a very strong, natural leader.

Just my thoughts on this topic. Im sure its not worth much, but I felt the need to bring it up, because I for one would like to see a very successful House Davion that is considered to have not only skilled pilots and good leaders, but good sportsmanship and attitudes about itself and its junior mechwarriors.

Edited by Azantia, 31 January 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[Jack Gallows]

lahyenne, on 04 January 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Nobody likes to play a game where one side clearly overpowers the other. If the success/failure of House Davion's military exploits truly ends up resting on the heads of the players - then it will be important to put our best and most dedicated minds forward because the other Houses will do exactly the same.

Not really hating on the idea of a loose rank structure, but it's hard to keep these things from being something like a cult of personality.

If you get a "rank" given by the community to do w/e for a certain house, it should be merit...not how popular you are or who you knew in a previous game.

Picking this unit structure pre game isn't really possible because you cannot quantify the amount of people who may excel far beyond the people you'd pick based on previous experience in games that are not MWO. Some might have good grasp of tactical situations...but until we actually get boots in the mud, you won't know who can adapt to the playstyles better then others beforhand.

I'll probably end up running my unit, and we may take "orders" from time to time, but I'm not going to let anyone dictate what I do in game unless it's good for my people. I'm not saying anyone is going to be all "do this or else!" but I can see MWO being mostly a "ok, you get bonuses for attacking X planet or X corridor because I have a command ability" and less directly picking where we go.

As for unit meetings, that may be a good way to start building a better community to avoid some of the pitfals I've labeled above, and it should just be a good way to get to know good forum goers. Hopefully something that can continue past game launch, too.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 31 January 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Jack Gallows, on 31 January 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Picking this unit structure pre game isn't really possible because you cannot quantify the amount of people who may excel far beyond the people you'd pick based on previous experience in games that are not MWO. Some might have good grasp of tactical situations...but until we actually get boots in the mud, you won't know who can adapt to the playstyles better then others beforhand.

Yes, but this thread seems to be concerned with 'high command'. The skills needed by high command are predominantly conceptual and administrative. Those aren't skills that are really tied to the nature of the game as structuring, running, and keeping a chain of command efficient at the strategic level isn't reliant on in-game mechanics.

However you do have a very valid concern about the 'cult of personality'. Still having the administrative skills you had in prior MechWarrior iterations doesn't mean you still have the time and energy to implement them.

[Jack Gallows]

lahyenne, on 01 February 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yes, but this thread seems to be concerned with 'high command'. The skills needed by high command are predominantly conceptual and administrative. Those aren't skills that are really tied to the nature of the game as structuring, running, and keeping a chain of command efficient at the strategic level isn't reliant on in-game mechanics.

However you do have a very valid concern about the 'cult of personality'. Still having the administrative skills you had in prior MechWarrior iterations doesn't mean you still have the time and energy to implement them.

Oh, I'm not blind to the advantages people with previous experience with this sort of thing can have, but if the game lets these people pick targets/etc or give them access to certain abilities that effect battles/etc (like, maybe this commander gives a defender 3 extra turrets at the start of a match,) it kind of hybrids the role into both a combat and a non combat one. Then it becomes an issue, because they don't know exactly how the game works ahead of time just like the rest of us.

Now, if they've got things where it is mostly just helping to keep order/manage and deligate responsibilities (and more, I'm simplifying things a bit,) then yeah, it's a great idea. I'm just trying to avoid many many of the pitfalls this kind of system can have. Honestly, it's not a huge worry, as I've met a lot of great people on here and continue to do so, this community really is awesome

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Ah, you're expressing concern that they'll try to micromanage too much and not leave battlefield decisions up to the 'field officers'. Understandable.

[Jack Gallows]

lahyenne, on 02 February 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Ah, you're expressing concern that they'll try to micromanage too much and not leave battlefield decisions up to the 'field officers'. Understandable.

Actually, no, cause once we're in game those outside really can't dictate what's going to happen or what should happen to any effective degree unless they're morons trying to trample the people who are actually in Commander roles, which is strategically retarded.

I dislike pre determined rank structures in video games until I've had plenty of time to get to know the people in admin or high ranked roles, and am happy with their ability to actually lead. I don't often take peoples word for it when it comes to something this big, not when trying to place people over others in a situation this expansive.

Something I think is best formed after the game gets going so people can get more face time with said members, because not everyone comes to the forums or is going to like the way the people who'd be put into "command" do things. It's the same gripe I have with people thinking they have a right to a certain unit over others because they've been it in previous games or for longer. I'm also worried about missing out on people who may do the jobs better, because they haven't come to the forums and are just waiting for the game to come out (or don't know about it until it comes out.)

There's going to be a lot of people who aren't going to take your word on the fact that the people who they think should be a higher rank in the CoC should be there, they didn't game with these people for years, and don't have the same experiences, and while in a real military you kind of have to go on the faith that your superiors know what they're doing, that's not the cause with civilian gamers BEFORE a game is out.

I don't have the idea of a chain of command, I am paranoid at it being abused and people getting grandfathered in because of some kind of notion that they should be entitled to it from past games that don't matter since it isn't MW:O, and worried that good people aren't going to get a chance just because they haven't been around as long.

[CPTAmerica]

Qin, on 03 November 2011 - 12:20 AM, said:

Maybe good idea to start a Regiment list, of what player groups exist and under what name they operate.

Start talking to their commanders. Get updates on personnel totals periodicly. See if you can't get some to agree to become subcommands of others to help streamline Chain of Command. Have your Field Marshals and such already working on initial strategies on which commands will cover which Marches. These can always be adjusted as your intelligence on the capabilities of the various factions vs your own troop commands improves. Still, you want a unified strategic plan in place before launch day. Start your reverse planning now.

[LordRush]

My vote still stands as it was waaaaay back when it was first posted.

What some of you may not understand is the people listed are ones who were voted in by the community.
Hmmm...community, after all, this is what this game has always and will continue to be based around.
You can have the best game in the world but without the community,you have no game.

These are people who have been tested and prevailed. These are respected individuals who form an alliance of different opinions and thoughts that bring together what is best for the House overall. They are not ego maniacs, they arent tooting their own horn. And believe me...if the people dont want you in something,the people will see you out.

We are not talking recently..we are talking YEARS of service. And not with just one but multiple platforms of games. So, with those that are new here, take this how you will. EARN YOUR KEEP!
It's fine to voice your "opinion" but until you have devoted your time ,energy and efforts as these individuals have, dont take what they have done for the COMMUNITY as a grain of salt. To some of us..it is over a decade of valiant service.

Of course, this all may be just a wash and we may not even have to worry about real life COC. Judging by the game platforms, it is seemingly going to be more AI than anything...and if thats the case? You all had better get your wading boots on because its gonna get deep in here!

[Jack Gallows]

LordRush, on 03 February 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

We are not talking recently..we are talking YEARS of service. And not with just one but multiple platforms of games. So, with those that are new here, take this how you will. EARN YOUR KEEP!

Honestly, we can level the question of, if there's a lot of individuals who feel they'd make the best of a certain rank/position/etc, who gets it? What if there's three or four of these communities that have been going on for 10-15+ years? They've all put time in previous games and have individuals they feel deserve these roles or are capable, but then you get to the point of...who's more deserving when there's so many that can fit the bill?

There's more then just some people's communities that have come to this game, there's others that have arrived from different backgrounds or people who have been gaming and leading individuals for just as long, even if it wasn't mechwarrior/battletech, who may be just as good at understanding.

People getting grandfathered in because of some kind of service record predating a brand new game is a bad idea, unless the community comes together and decides now, with all involved even the newer players. Need face time with these people, the community as a whole, old and new, needs to get to know them before you can just ask them to blindly trust someone.

I won't say many of the people that people know who've been successful won't be good at it, or won't quickly show that quality to the community, but just saying "Hey, they've done time man, it's theirs!" I kind of don't give a drac's behind, especially if I think I've got people I know who can do it, or if I feel like I can....but haven't known you're group for 10 years.

So, you can keep the "earn your keep" and take a "your equal with the rest of the new people." I've been gaming for a very long time, I've lead guilds and clans and what have you for a very long long time, but I don't expect a damn thing when going into a new game, and I get somewhat offended if people think they should have something that I should have equal shot at, just because they've been a part of a singular specific group for X amount of time.

The people who want the admin/rank/whatever of a CoC, if there's going to be one, need to be here and start showing people who they and are how they handle situations. This community, old and new, needs to mesh into one community to make a decision....not to snub the newer players and alienate people based on a perceived due because you "did your time," or some other sense of entitlement.

Basically, put your c-bills where your mouth is, because I don't know any of you, and there's going to be a lot of people thinking the same thing. There's going to be a certain level of respect and giving benefit of the doubt, but I honestly don't care if you played with X people for Y amount of time, this is a new game, and it's bigger then any group. The community is going to grow, and they're going to wonder why certain people are where they are, and half of them aren't going to care or know what game you came from before.

The people you want to see in "command" may have been selected by a previous community...that's awesome, and I bet they're great people (because I've only met really great people on this forum!) but this is a new community, even if some have come from older ones.

If you think someone should be in command, then they'll end up there by merit and expertise, but they should not because you feel that they should have it because they had it in a previous game/community. It's good press for them, but it should not automatically make people assume they should have it. We need to knit a more varied community together, and keep from alienating new players or people new to your old communities.

So, I'm fine with a CoC, but it has to be open to consideration for everyone, old and new, equally. If someone can't cut it, the community will see and we'll fix it, but none of the demanding or expecting rank because you knew someone for X years. Though, with the way the game is going, I don't think it's actually going to happen. That, or I may not even really have to care in the long run, as long as things are going well for my own merc corp/guild.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 03 February 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[LordRush]

Jack....

Relax....lol

I believe you are getting waaaaay to ahead of yourself here my man. Nothing can be decided at this point in time. We just dont have the information to assess that kind of situation. And believe me, just like the other 49,118 registered members here, we all Really want to "know" just the same


However

for the sake of a mature debate


In all honesty Mr. Gallows, I am now convinced, you are the one who is looking from the outside, in.
I as well think that you are greatly uneducated to the "online" mechwarrior/battletech universe. Im speaking of the online gaming community as a whole,of course. And please, dont be offended by this. I am not attempting to demean you or criticise an any way. I am merely attempting to reason with you by explaining a side that maybe you are unaware of. So please...again



Jack Gallows wrote : "Honestly, we can level the question of, if there's a lot of individuals who feel they'd make the best of a certain rank/position/etc, who gets it? What if there's three or four of these communities that have been going on for 10-15+ years?"

See, this is pretty much where I think you arent understanding. Those communities you refer to ,that have been around 10-15 years? Have all been the same people..lol I mean, sure, as the years go by, players and leaders come and players/ leaders go. However, there has been a "core" [and when I mean core...I mean a CORE] of some of those proposed leaders that have been in that position for the entire time.

We are talking Genie*Multiplayer Battletech*MPBT :Solaris*MPBT 3025*ISW*MekTek ...and now MWO comes along. These are the same people. See, we here have all played together for that long. ALOT of us have met in real life. I have had dinner with some of these leaders I speak of. Drank beer with em. Met there wives,girlfriends and kids. No ****.
Look around the forums man...you will see pictures of us haning out in another freakin state. Doing stupid ****. Do you not see? These people HAVE been elected, BY THE PEOPLE, for over a decade now.

Jack Gallows wrote : "Basically, put your c-bills where your mouth is, because I don't know any of you"

Exactly. You dont. But see? We know each other...and if you cant see the scope of how much we know each other by these forums here? You are only self centering your perspective.

Jack Gallows wrote : "The people you want to see in "command" may have been selected by a previous community...that's awesome, and I bet they're great people (because I've only met really great people on this forum!) but this is a new community, even if some have come from older ones."

This is all very true! And yes, this is a "new" community. But I am willing to bet you that the figures who are flocking to this game make up a 60% majority who have played together in the same game for all these years. Pretty bold statement eh? And that is ALOT of people from all faction houses.
See, this isnt just about Davion. This is all who represented 5 houses all those years as well. I wouldnt just decalre my own house COC. This is a rivalry!! Hell..I'd vote for Tarl Calbot in Kurita to keep the "original" forces together.

Jack, your talking about a new game, I understand this,perfectly. At the same time, what makes a game is its community. And the people I speak of,no matter whether its Steiner,Liao or the other houses that are pledged to. These are the same people who will overtake this community with a sense of tradition. Look around you, look around this forum. Look at all the posts of online battletech games of past. People coming into this community who arent aware of the past games played need to understand, this community is like no other gaming community ever! Dood, my guild has been together for 15 years. We have played MANY games outside of battletech/mechwarrior [ unreal tournie-avp-planetside-COH-tribes-WoW-STO-Lotro-Swtor to just name a few] and each game played there has been no community like all the BT/MW games I listed above. Nothing came close. But you know what? At least WE as a guild know that when we arrive at a spaceport ready to jump in mechs...our House, our comrades ,allies and enemies alike KNOW whow we are and represent. That my friend is because "we", paid our dues.

[Jack Gallows]

I never take offense, we're having a friendly structured debate, and to get angry or heated only serves to break down communication...and that really makes no sense when dealing with a video game forum

About the community, I'm well aware of the scope of what you're talking about, and I knew it existed. It became quickly apparent soon after the forums were created. It's an awesome thing, and I've been a part of something quite like it, I've been a member of the Unwashed Village fallout community for over 16 years......met many of the members and have even celebrated birthdays by visiting some of them.

And I'm happy for you, but the point I'm trying to make is that you don't have any more right to command positions then anyone else who might be new here, based on your previous exploits. It's all well and good some of these people have been "voted" in by you pre established community, but this game is going to grow beyond your numbers, and probably quickly.

People will know you when you land on the battlefield, you will meet friends and enemies who've you fought in games long past, this is great, but at the end of the day, I don't really care how long you've been together. I don't care if I'm on the outside looking in, because I'm not going to be the only one.

Admirable as your community may be, it entitles you to nothing in MW:O, and those players on the outside looking in are going to be fighting right along side you. You may have your traditions, but we have ours as well, and I'm pretty sure we'll also have different ideas of who should make up the CoC should we have one. And should we have one, none of the pre existing battletech community has any more right to those command ranks as someone who is new here.

I also never said that anything could be decided now, I'm quite well aware that we need more info before we could proceed with anything resembling a CoC, and that the way the game goes we may not even have one; either way is fine with me. But I'm not having people grandfathered in, or have a landslide vote because their buddies believe they should have it or enough people to swing a kind of vote without people actually meshing the old with the new people of the "community."

If newer players, or new people to the Mechwarrior community don't get a chance, why should we even bother? Hell, at the end of the day, how many people are just going to ignore you in game and out, because they didn't get a say? I don't mean to sound mean, but you run the risk of quite a many things if this isn't thought through fairly, should it happen.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 04 February 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[Azantia]

Jack, I would like to start out by saying, It is clear you and and I are on the same page, and I respect the way you have voiced your opinions and remained professional. Your leadership and general community/gaming philosphies have me taking a look at your unit a little closer, as I am very picky with where I place my allegiance. Take a look at my original post in this thread while I smile, and know that I get where you are coming from and support you 100%.

LordRush, I am not taking anything away from anyone you have met, played with or shed vitual blood and sweat with.

You are the one not understanding, so I will make it more clear.

We dont know you or your compadres : So we dont trust you. And no, I dont take your word for it, and no there is no wall of text that can convince me otherwise.

No I am not upset or mad in any way, just trying to make sure both sides clearly understand each others position.

Leadership is about respect. Respect given to his men by the commander, and respect given to the commander by his men. Respect is earned slowly overtime by competence, communication, fairness and consistancy in expectations, reward and punishment. These principles build confidence and loyalty, through confidence and loyalty you get good cohesion. Through cohesion and practice you get a good, solid unit.

Now if you can demonstrate or provide examples of how those parameters have been met by your core group, in regards to either myself, Colonel Gallows or anyone else who was not, for any reason part of the MPBT AFFS crowd, then I will concede the point.

p.s. your comment about Colonel Gallows being on the outside looking in, is not only a low blow, but it is completely and totally off-base. Is he on the outside of YOUR click looking in? absolutely. Is he on the outside of this community looking in? hardly. Might want to re-align your sights and check your target again, cause last time I checked, we were mostly on the same side.

Edited by Azantia, 04 February 2012 - 11:18 AM.

[LordRush]

Ok...here is a scenerio based situation for use as an example.

You travel into Las Vegas one day from Boston. There is a Bar that you decide to venture into. When entering you happen to notice alot of people celebrating the grand re-opening. Looks very cheery and friendly. The place looks "almost" brand new and you hear people talking about how the bar used to look.
On the TV monitor is a hockey game. You stroll up to a group of people and say "Bruins playing tonight"? And some peeps say "Naw...Wings are on" , you reply "You guys should really turn on the Bruins game" and the gents turn and reply "Uh..We are Wings fans,after all...this is a Wings fan Bar"
The more you look around the more you notice that ALOT of people are wings fans,as well..ALOT of people are actually regulars.
What choice do you have at that point? Go find a place that air Bruins games? Or..join in with the crowd watching the Wings.

Now look...I understand your points. It is NOT the goal to alienate ANYONE. This game will depend on survivability with it's community. We welcome ANYONE [well, almost anyone ] Why cut off our hands??
Doesnt make sense....

But! The facts remain. It doesnt matter what you do to the "Bar", you can move the bar to the other side of the room, you can add whatever bells and whistles and all the shiny stuff like a jukebox. The fact of the matter is that these people are regulars and new customers will be treated with the same regard and respect as the regulars. But you CANNOT take away years of patronage over individuals who just started showing.
They are your bread and butter. Take that away and you will DRAMATICALLY find yourself out of business.
Not to much different than this game actually.

I'd also like to point out the FTP area of this game. And yes, I could be wrong here,however...I'd be willing to bet if this game was not FTP that the community would be majority [like 75-80%] old time BT players.
Granted, due to a decade of non existence brings in a younger generation who was never exposed to what we went through. And believe me....if you were as passionate about this game as alot of us are/were...you'd probably feel the same way to

[Azantia]

You let your ego cloud your judgement LordRush.

"if you were as passionate about this game as alot of us are/were, you'd probably feel the same way"

Your mistake is assuming we dont/are not, and other players dont just because you assume they didnt fly in MPBT 3025. (I would have been there too, but you cant play battletech online from Afghanistan, and you cant devote your time to a game or unit when you only have a year or less between deployments to spent with your family, its not fair.) This is our exact point, refer to my original reply in this thread and focus on the previous players/commanders missing out on great pilots and leaders because they didnt run with them before, and pay close attention to the E-peen and Egos part, cause your looking into an online mirror bud.

Edited by Azantia, 04 February 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[LordRush]

lol Personally, I think it's your ego that is clouded due to you thinking you can just walk into someplace declaring that you are "here" and disregarding what has already been established long before your delivery. Just saying

[Azantia]

Clearly, you do not and will not understand. You are the epitome of what myself and Colonel Gallows are talking about. It is clear we disagree, and I believe that over the course of the next few months, you are going to find that we arent in a wings bar, we are in a bruins bar, you just prefer to see red.

[LordRush]

Really, the bottom line has yet to be introduced. But, when it is all said and done the real bottom line is we all have to work together.
Personally, as much as I would like to see the old faces taking care of business it may not even be close.
AI will more than likely be the scenerio here and for all of us..that is REALLY unfortunate. Does it mean we arent going to play? Never...
But Id much more prefer a human touch over a computer generated tag,although there wont be any biased reactions.