176 replies to this topic

[Sintaichi]

Thank you for posting this, it's nice to see some hard data on the subject.

[Chronojam]

Stoindrae, on 31 October 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

No idea how many of the 5 were in a voice chat.... but I recognized people I have teamed with in TS3 in at least 3 of the matches. /shrug .... one group was doing the "SQUAWK" thing.. tho I have no fuggen clue what that is supposed to mean.

SQUAAAAAAAWWWWWWK

That should help clarify for everybody.

[Desecrator]

I would not take stats seriously at this point.

Not only is it too early but light mechs have it made right now.

With knockdowns out and streak missles, lights are way easy to roll with. Those stats will even will even
when they fix those 2 things

I would be running a light right now to stat farm, but im trying to grind my atlas's to elites. First things first

[RedHairDave]

Squidhead Jax, on 01 November 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

While Dave's post was worded... bluntly, it's 100% correct in aggregate. The 'mech warfare skill of individual members of a PUG means nothing compared to the fraction of the group that plays stupid - either intentionally for farming, or just refuses to grasp the basic concepts of concentrating fire and not going off alone in the woods like a horror movie victim.

It would not surprise me if a group of 7 interested volunteers who've never touched a 'mech game before and 1 moderadely experienced leader showing them how to play the game could roll along with an impressive victory rate in the current state of the game. Not because the players on premades are inherently more skilled, but they're by definition all present and interested and trying. The typical PUG's problem is sabotage from within, and that's why a PUG that lucks out and gets few or no derp-Rambos, AFKers, or suiciders tends to roll their round like a premade.

An easier time joining ephemeral but self-selected groups (the typical state on the public TS servers, and a PUG by the definitions of many other games and their communities), along communications integrated outside the matches as well as in, would close most of the gap for the people who care to try.

sorry for bluntness, no insult was meant, you were much better at saying what i meant than i am. thankyour sir

Desecrator, on 01 November 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

I would not take stats seriously at this point.

Not only is it too early but light mechs have it made right now.

With knockdowns out and streak missles, lights are way easy to roll with. Those stats will even will even
when they fix those 2 things

I would be running a light right now to stat farm, but im trying to grind my atlas's to elites. First things first

its likely best to never take stats seriously in this game, you can die and never kill anyone, but still be critical to the win. stats cant show that.

[Lyoto Machida]

RedHairDave, on 01 November 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

sorry for bluntness, no insult was meant, you were much better at saying what i meant than i am. thankyour sir



its likely best to never take stats seriously in this game, you can die and never kill anyone, but still be critical to the win. stats cant show that.

Yeah but you can't die, not kill anyone and cause no damage...as an Atlas pilot, anyways.

[RedHairDave]

why not? what if your the tip of the spear walking into 8 lrm boats, but your sacrifice(and wild shooting that hit nothing as you were being rocked hard) allowed the whole rest of the team to walk into under 180 meters on them and win easy. no one else even got hurt, game ended 8-1. (this actually happend 2 days ago to me. i was the tip in a atlas k, made it all the way to 200 meters away, then died, the rest of my group walked in and mopped up. now i did damage, and got a kill on the way, but that isnt necessarily the case all the time. it was just good focus fire and i got the luck last hit)

that atlas was valuable, but according to stats, only accomplished dieing.

Edited by RedHairDave, 01 November 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Sixbock]

How do you even view your stats?

[RedHairDave]

click profile then click stats under it.

[Kunae]

Cragger, on 01 November 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Unfortunately the evidence that Kraven Kor presents is not universal. He is in a light mech, a Raven. This moves the data in a more PuG then Premade bias because a light mech is the first mech a non founder player can aquire. Because of this when pugging you will find yourself against less premades because there is a larger pull of players to be matched against.

If Kraven Kor repeated the experiment using all weigh classes then averaged them you would have a true scientific experiment instead just a sliver that in his case supports his stance that premade teams aren't a problem.

I began to do so myself then ran into the problem that as far as I know MWO does not have a screenshot feature and anytime I hit printscreen I only get a black image and not a screenshot. I am assuming because I play in fullscreen and have two monitors.

I beleive you mean Krivvan, not Kraven Kor. Also, he's running a Jenner, as he clearly states in the body of the post.

Just because a light mech is the first mech that a new player can afford, doesn't mean they're going to buy it, if they have half a brain. Light mechs aren't for everyone, and definitely not for the majority of people I've seen playing them, to this point.

The majority of people playing trials are playing the awesome or centurion. Thus he actually has a greater chance of running into a premade, which invariably has at least one light, and typically two, than he does running into a complete pug group. If he wanted to skew the results he'd be playing an atlas.

[Alfred VonGunn]

JollyRoger4u, on 31 October 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

well, statstics are only viable with a minimum of 1000 samples (if my memory from the school days hold up at least ) so you got a lot of work to do! go git em!

seriously though, good work and nice to see that someone actually try to find actual facts instead of making *beep* up as they go along

gg

Stats are just fake math... They can be made to prove or disprove anything you like...

[Weeble]

My gut feeling is most new open beta players start out as puggers and dilute the chances of pugs dropping against premades.

However, I always check the public TS servers before dropping to see how many groups are queued up. This doesn't account for private servers but I find it interesting. There have been a LOT more groups lately on the EU Comstar server, not a huge number on the NA server, but overall it seems there are more ppl using TS than a couple of weeks ago. It looks like CB puggers started using TS because of all the pug-stomping talk at the start of OB. However, Krivvan's results don't seem to support that unless there are a lot of new players joining open beta.

Would be good to know how many players are currently active. None of the numbers make a lot of sense without knowing how the sample size compares to the total population.

[Krivvan]

AceTimberwolf, on 01 November 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

I've played 5 Pug Matches and lost 4 of Them. The rest I've been in Premade. My only death game from a server glitch 3v6. Yea it is hard to lose in a Premade we know this and we try to go out of our way to play as unconventional as possible. I am Always out on my own but i manage to survive. Not trying to brag but just looking at stats It tells you the other side of the story.

Just a note for everyone, this is what typical stats look like when you exclusively play with good premade teams. It's what mine looked like too for a bit.

[Krivvan]

Desecrator, on 01 November 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

I would not take stats seriously at this point.

Not only is it too early but light mechs have it made right now.

With knockdowns out and streak missles, lights are way easy to roll with. Those stats will even will even
when they fix those 2 things

I would be running a light right now to stat farm, but im trying to grind my atlas's to elites. First things first

I have had the same results earlier in the closed beta with a Jenner back when there were knockdowns. I made a post like this back then too.

I can repeat the whole thing in an Atlas too if you want. The real reason I'm running a Jenner for this (other than the fact that it's my favourite mech) is that it's less frustrating to PUG in one since you can take care of scouting and base defense on your own.

[PvtTom]

They could clear a lot of this up if they just showed like in WOT who was teamed up togther with something next to their name.

[Hexenhammer]

My only problem with Krivvan's stats is it shows me how bad I am at this game. I was happy with a 1.15 kill ratio and dropped to .88. So I suck. I admit it but I still have fun playing the game.

Oh and to everyone (generalization) that says 0-8 or 1-8 matches means its a premade by default? I was in a pug group where the LRM boat ran out of missles and all he did was call out. "Kill A," "Kill B." We listened and walked off 8-0. Ive been in plenty of pugs that have gone 8-1 or 8-0 and because people focus fired and didn't run up and try to solo the enemy.


edited for grammar.

Edited by Hexenhammer, 01 November 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Lavrenti]

Stormfury, on 01 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

...We're getting just as much dissatisfaction about premade vs non-premades as the guys getting stomped. It's not fun for either side.

The only difference is, we're not screaming about it. ...

No offence intended, but I think the premade players aren't screaming about it because they're not being hurt as badly by it. For them it's just a matter of not having a satisfying game - they still get plenty of wins, and have it confirmed that they're playing "right". In short, they might not be getting much out of it, but they're not being hurt by it very much either.
For the PUG players, however, it's a very different experience. A relentless parade of losses is pretty dispiriting, and there's no obvious carrots dangling around to keep their hopes up. I think a lot of them dimly realise they lose because they can't coordinate, but they might not have articulated the thought in that form so they blame premades who are the obvious embodiment of superior communication and the advantages it brings.

[NocturnalBeast]

Nice K/D, but only possible due to the removal of collisions.

[ZoomThruPoom]

So last night at the start of a match the premade team of all gold's on the other side chatted "If you want to start winning go to
www.someforumsite.net and if your good they'll invite you."

To which I simply responded "G#Y."

Then four premade players let me know there going to report me.

Edited by ZoomThruPoom, 01 November 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[Konrad]

I was playing last night solo full pug vs pug and one guy on the other team says "It's a premade, everyone just leave." Then he disconnected.

Silly.

[Squidhead Jax]

Hexenhammer, on 01 November 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

My only problem with Krivvan's stats is it shows me how bad I suck at this game. I was happy with a 1.15 kill ratio and dropped to .88. So I suck I admit it but I still have fun playing the game.

Aww, don't be sad, it's comfy down here. Nobody has high expectations!

Lavrenti, on 01 November 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

I think a lot of them dimly realise they lose because they can't coordinate, but they might not have articulated the thought in that form so they blame premades who are the obvious embodiment of superior communication and the advantages it brings.

That's the problem though - it's focused in the wrong direction, with the wrong non-solutions arising because of that. PUGs can and do effectively coordinate. It's not the premades that are poisoning the well.