89 replies to this topic

[Agent of Change]

So the Pug v. Premade disagreement/argument/hair pulling and eye gouging/***** has been raging hot and heavy of late as you all may have noticed. And I had a thought I’d like to share with the group, and maybe confirm a theory.

First off I would like to only address the usage of VOIP, which is a core element of the Premade side of the argument. And as far as I can tell one of the major arguments about not getting a premade together is “I don’t want to use a third party app/waste time setting it up/etc...” But it occurs to me that for many ‘premade’ players it’s not the team play but the voice communication that is the important part… It is for me.

For my part (after wading into the pre/pug melee for a while) I began to re-evaluate why I felt strongly the way I did about Voice comms (and premades for that matter) and I can break it down:

1. When I can talk to someone I know they are a human being and it makes the games more personal and enjoyable. Being able to share jokes and do after-actions adds to value of the game for me.

2. I am a sloppy typist, and I find it difficult to communicate quickly, clearly and with the required frequency through typing while effectively piloting my mech, Voice in that way is a convenience.

3. I prefer the smooth and rapid communication Voice provides allowing for tactics with more moving parts and more opportunities for ‘the cavalry to arrive in the nick of time’ (or when I scream ‘help’ my friends show up). The ability to react quickly with minimal effort taken away from the fight.

4. Immersion – Typing a message breaks my immersion (this is the point I was surprised to realize when I thought about it). When I’m in game I’m hunting targets, it’s only natural for me to call grid squares and targets, it’s functional but it also feels in the moment. Stopping to type a message (in hindsight) breaks the flow of the game for me, there is also the radio chatter from my teammates calling targets and requesting assistance… it’s music to my ears.

I cannot get these things from a pug because I could not reliably or realistically get a pug into a voice comms right now, even if I didn’t have a unit I would not run Pugs because of this. The Immersion factor and the camaraderie are almost as important to me as the actual game play in this aspect. I say this not with hyperbole but I genuinely enjoy (and get more out of) a loss in a voicecomm enabled premade more than a win in a silent pug.

I was hoping to start a discussion on why people choose to use or not use Voicecoms and I have a few questions to kick it off… though you should feel free to ignore them.

Are voice comms a large/primary reason you choose to run in a premade or not?
What aspect(s) of voice comms is most important to you if you use them?

[Yokaiko]

You nailed most of it.

Unless you have a crap connection there is really no reason not to. People drop in and out of games constantly. Often I will log in and park in the LFG channel and one of two things happen.

1) I get recruited, normally this happens before I finish a single drop.
2) (Rare occasion) I end up finishing that game......BUT there are now 7 people in the LFG channel. "Critical mass, c'mon guys lets move here".

Another couple misconceptions.

"Mouth breathing neckbeard" On the Comstar relays, they basically don't exist, ONE time since July have I heard anyone get heated and start nerdraging and it was put to a stop, QUICKLY.

"Don't want to listen to kids" Far and away most of the people I have encountered are adults with families. So while you can expect the language to be adult rated, I've yet to run into anyone that isn't mature/

"I don't have a custom mech" You don't need it. I have run groups with three guys in Trial, its not a concern

"I don't want people telling me what to drive" Its generally polite to tell the group leader what you are sitting in and ask if they need anything for a particular role. However, if you only have one mech its almost never an issue. More often then not the answer will be "whatever you are comfortable with" and if you end up overloaded on things people shift around.

"I don't have a mic" Doesn't matter, if you can listen, you are still going to be more of an asset then a pug that we have to try and type to, whom may or may not be paying attention. You can use the text box in the TS channels.

Edited by Yokaiko, 01 November 2012 - 07:15 AM.

[Teirdome]

These comments are all predicated on one assumption:

You're able to talk.

I live in a house built in 1890. The interior walls never had insulation added to them, so they are only slightly thicker than paper.

There are really two times I get chunks of time to play: when my wife is sleeping, when my wife is working.

I'm not going to talk while she's sleeping. She works from home on a major political campaign and is on the phone constantly, there's no way I'm going to embarrass her by talking about a video game while she's on those calls.

The rest of the time I get 20-30 minute chunks to play. You may downplay it, but getting into and operating in a premade is extra overhead. 20 minutes is either 2 games pugging, or 1 win in a premade. Until last night when I lost 10 out of 12 I had almost 50% W/L pugging, so I was certainly progressing faster in small windows than when in a premade.

[Yokaiko]

Teirdome, on 01 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

These comments are all predicated on one assumption:

You're able to talk.

I actually addressed that specifically. You don't have to people have lives, their wives may be sleeping etc etc. Its understood there is a text box in the teamspeak channels.

Teirdome, on 01 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

The rest of the time I get 20-30 minute chunks to play. You may downplay it, but getting into and operating in a premade is extra overhead. 20 minutes is either 2 games pugging, or 1 win in a premade. Until last night when I lost 10 out of 12 I had almost 50% W/L pugging, so I was certainly progressing faster in small windows than when in a premade.

Well then go on.

[Taryys]

I am in a similar situation. The only time I can play is at night when the wife is sleeping, and our computer is in our bedroom.
VOIP clients like Teams Speak have a text chat box. Even if you cannot talk you do have the option of the text chat.
More importantly you are able to hear what is happening with the team, the plan, and are able to figure out where you will be able to be more useful to the team by just being able to hear the chatter. No talking needed.

Teirdome, on 01 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

These comments are all predicated on one assumption:

You're able to talk.

There are really two times I get chunks of time to play: when my wife is sleeping, when my wife is working.

I'm not going to talk while she's sleeping. She works from home on a major political campaign and is on the phone constantly, there's no way I'm going to embarrass her by talking about a video game while she's on those calls.

[Guide] Playing with Friends, Groups, and Teams

I VOIP because I like team work and being a part of a coordinated team.

[Lucky Noob]

[color=#CCCCCC]

Comstar Relay North America (Comstar NA) Available Slots: 512 Man TS3 server Address: na1.mech-connect.net Password: WordofBlake

[/color][/center][color=#CCCCCC]

[/color][/center][color=#CCCCCC]

Comstar Relay Europe (Comstar EU) Available Slots: 512 Man TS3 server Address: eu1.mech-connect.net Password: hG5!4Dg*

[/color][/center][color=#CCCCCC]

[/color][/center]

[Havyek]

I've been saying this time and time again, and I've seen others post about it.

We need a lobby. Plain and simple. We need a place where the group, whether PUGs or not, can communicate pre-drop about what they're running, what the general plan is etc. and be able to see which map we're dropping on to choose something that works for the conditions.

The biggest difference between PUGs and "pre-mades" is communication. PUGs don't do it.

To a lesser extent this is also indicative of attitude. Those who can't be "bothered" to spend 5 minutes downloading TS3 and configuring it are likely the same people who can't be "bothered" to pay attention to the chat window and either giving, or following orders/commands to keep the team working together.

I'm done with PUGing. I'm sick of just clicking LAUNCH for a game or 2 before dinner or something and watching half the team wander off into different directions, or thinking to myself "Why the hell are those guys wandering single file into the water" in Forest Colony. I'll spend the extra 5 minutes to load up TS3, jump into the LFG channel and finding a team.

[RedHairDave]

Quote

[color=#000000]Garth Erlam, on 30 October 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:[/color]

[color=#000000]We are taking steps to fix this (Phase 1 will be soon, in fact) but a lot of this is player perception. I play outside of groups 99% of the time, and in the last two weeks I've played against a grand total of two premades. Today I played 20 matches just to see; got zero.[/color]

[color=#000000]It can be frustrating to lose like that, sure, but what people often forget is they're losing because they literally do zero group work. No-one uses C3, no-one even uses text chat. Then they get picked apart one by one. I managed to get a random group of guys to talk and we beat an actual premade (one of those two I faced) because a lot of the guys there were great players, they just needed a good leader.[/color]


[color=#000000]And no, I don't mean yelling at people who don't listen to you[/color]

garth confirmes it, the pug vs premade issue is all in the head of the puggers. you only see them 1 in 10 battles, all the other losses you think were premades stomping you, were just puggers with a modicum of cohesion.

[Havyek]

Teirdome, on 01 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

These comments are all predicated on one assumption:

You're able to talk.

No, they are predicated on the assumption that you're able to listen.

In match, all you need to do is respond when asked a question or type a question yourself, then listen to the response.

In between matches, you can use the TS3 chat box to ask questions or respond, and again listen to the

Teirdome, on 01 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

The rest of the time I get 20-30 minute chunks to play. You may downplay it, but getting into and operating in a premade is extra overhead. 20 minutes is either 2 games pugging, or 1 win in a premade. Until last night when I lost 10 out of 12 I had almost 50% W/L pugging, so I was certainly progressing faster in small windows than when in a premade.

Do whatever floats your boat, if you're concern is simply progressing, right now you get more c-bills and XP by taking a trial 'Mech and running headlong into the enemy, dying and then repeating.

[Johnny Morgan]

Yokaiko, on 01 November 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

"I don't have a mic" Doesn't matter, if you can listen, you are still going to be more of an asset then a pug that we have to try and type to, whom may or may not be paying attention. You can use the text box in the TS channels.

THIS<< JUST LISTEN TO THE VC, it's a totally different game.

That being said, this all needs to be done seamlessly though the game experience.

The Devs should be looking at the TS/Premade setup and figure out how to replicate that to everyone in the game...without making them do anything.

VOIP should be integrated into the game (it is which is awesome) but turned on by default to RECEIVE but not transmit, turning on the ability to transmit should be a choice..

When I log into a game as a PUG, I should get dropped into my Lance and have VOIP with everyone in that lance, I should *NEVER* have to us TS.

There is nothing the devs can do about people using 3rd party apps to make their gaming experience better...with the exception of stealing the idea and making it available to everyone as *part* of the gaming experience, not an add-on too.

[Johnny Morgan]

bump, this is the core issue with PUGs vs Premades.

Pugs need the same experience.

Big push for VOIP in game and seamlessly setup.

[malibu43]

Johnny Morgan, on 01 November 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

THIS<< JUST LISTEN TO THE VC, it's a totally different game. That being said, this all needs to be done seamlessly though the game experience. The Devs should be looking at the TS/Premade setup and figure out how to replicate that to everyone in the game...without making them do anything. VOIP should be integrated into the game (it is which is awesome) but turned on by default to RECEIVE but not transmit, turning on the ability to transmit should be a choice.. When I log into a game as a PUG, I should get dropped into my Lance and have VOIP with everyone in that lance, I should *NEVER* have to us TS. There is nothing the devs can do about people using 3rd party apps to make their gaming experience better...with the exception of stealing the idea and making it available to everyone as *part* of the gaming experience, not an add-on too.

Johnny Morgan, on 01 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

bump, this is the core issue with PUGs vs Premades. Pugs need the same experience. Big push for VOIP in game and seamlessly setup.

Totally agree.

[Yokaiko]

malibu43, on 01 November 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

Totally agree.

If you dump everyone in a channel there is no defined leader, the reason many wouldn't use WoW's ingame voice.

[Denno]

Lot of good, relatively positive posts here and I agree with the Op all down the line.

[ZoomThruPoom]

PGI needs to fix the premade vs pug the sameway they fixed collisions.

[Agent of Change]

Johnny Morgan, on 01 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

bump, this is the core issue with PUGs vs Premades.

Pugs need the same experience.

Big push for VOIP in game and seamlessly setup.

I whole heartedly agree, and As I said i kinda feel this issue is at the core of the pug v premade issue. But what i'm largely wondering is is Voip as it stands in the MWO meta the reason people do or do not group up?

I mean as far back as I go in the beta PGI was providing a TS3 server (and encouraged it's use) for the closed beta, when that came to a halt community memebers brought up servers and PGI endorsed those as 'unofficial servers', shortly there after PGi started to implement C3 as an 'official' Voip solution, which they then integrated more fully into the client. It's clear to me based on all of that VOIP was intended as part of the experience (in not part of the core experience), they seem to be working towards a more functional general VOIP solution (but i mean they are working on a lot of things).

I suspect for some it's a 'perceived quality of time spent' issue: Some see their primary quality being quantity of games played by avoiding the setup time required in a group especially when using voice, and for some fewer games is worth the added value to them of the VOIP Team.

Edited by Agent of Change, 01 November 2012 - 08:29 AM.

[Felbombling]

Voice communication is where it is at, and even a 1-3 player group using basic tactics can almost ensure a victory. I've played in Trial Mechs and gotten poor results from PuG play, but in voice chat went 26-2 last night. There is no comparison, and the number one reason to do it is for the company, not the winning streak. The game will be boring until the matchmaker is corrected, and downright soul-sucking if you are not on Voice. Actually, that is not correct. I should say downright soul-sucking if you are PuGin' in Trial Mechs. If you have your own Mech, tweaked out to your play style, I can imagine PuG games are more enjoyable.

[TLBFestus]

Teirdome, on 01 November 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

These comments are all predicated on one assumption:

You're able to talk.

I live in a house built in 1890. The interior walls never had insulation added to them, so they are only slightly thicker than paper.

There are really two times I get chunks of time to play: when my wife is sleeping, when my wife is working.

I'm not going to talk while she's sleeping. She works from home on a major political campaign and is on the phone constantly, there's no way I'm going to embarrass her by talking about a video game while she's on those calls.

The rest of the time I get 20-30 minute chunks to play. You may downplay it, but getting into and operating in a premade is extra overhead. 20 minutes is either 2 games pugging, or 1 win in a premade. Until last night when I lost 10 out of 12 I had almost 50% W/L pugging, so I was certainly progressing faster in small windows than when in a premade.

Quite a few of my friends operate under the dictatorship that is a relationship. They still hop onto our clubs TS when gaming so we can quickly communicate with them even if they can't answer back.

That said, I have been in a few PUGs where experienced players manage to group up at drop and win lots of games without having VOIP.

Edited by TLBFestus, 01 November 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

ZoomThruPoom, on 01 November 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

PGI needs to fix the premade vs pug the sameway they fixed collisions.

Funny I thought they had. Collision wasn't working so they pulled it to work on it. VOiP isn't quite working right so they are allowing second party TS services while they work on that and MM.

[Guido]

Bravo Whisky Charlie, the unit I joined back in February and is still here today and strong, has a lot of emphasis on communication. We do everything imaginable to create a sense of camaraderie and mutual respect among all members, while stomping around on the battlefield or dropping into firefights. Voice communication in a secure environment is a large portion of how we accomplish this.

We use the server to communicate in the game and group up, but we specifically have areas of our teamspeak server that is meant to just hang out, talk shop or BS around, and have a good time, without even playing a game. And in game, we have a taught (very easy to learn) language for use in battle, but that lingo also includes a call to start using our battle comms.