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The math of planned double heatsink changes


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#21 Zerikin

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:14 AM

I have no idea what build would get that much better with DHS, energy weapon are still pretty terrible in gereral

#22 3rdworld

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:15 AM

Hey look another light buff. News at 11:00

#23 Hauser

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

View Postaspect, on 02 November 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Yep, just built a DHS / medium pulse laser hunchback LAST NIGHT. 8 extra dhs. Spent all of my cbills and was so eager to finish it that I actually bought a mech with MC and sold it to put me over the top.

Sure am happy about the change. Lesson learned, I guess...


Should still be okay though. You'll run only a little hotter then before.

Assuming you have the 200 engine.

Right now you have 8+ 8*2 = 24HS.
That will become (8+ 8) * 1.4 = 22.4 HS

Assuming you have the 250 engine.

Right now you have 10 + 8*2 = 26 HS.
That will become (10 + 8) * 1.4 = 25.2 HS

#24 3rdworld

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:24 AM

View PostHauser, on 02 November 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:


Should still be okay though. You'll run only a little hotter then before.

Assuming you have the 200 engine.

Right now you have 8+ 8*2 = 24HS.
That will become (8+ 8) * 1.4 = 22.4 HS

Assuming you have the 250 engine.

Right now you have 10 + 8*2 = 26 HS.
That will become (10 + 8) * 1.4 = 25.2 HS


you are also ignoring the MPLs are now going to be generating more heat.

So not only are his heatsinks getting nerfed, but now his weapons are as well.

#25 Psykosis

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:13 PM

hey, Thontor bothers to read instead of knee-jerking. Bravo, sir.

#26 Redmond Spiderhammer

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:14 PM

I was quite concerned about the changes at first. Now that I understand that the heat increase is for pulse lasers and small lasers I am less concerned. If pulse lasers were generating less heat than medium or large lasers or small lasers were not generating the correct proportion of heat to medium lasers/large lasers then that was wrong and did need to be fixed. If anyone got addicted to the broken heat of those specific weapons, then that is unfortunate but still needs to be fixed. I'm content with a reduced modifier from 'double' provided it is well thought out and balanced and keeps energy builds as a viable alternative to balistics or missile builds.
I do see the concern that builds that rely on a lot of heatsinks will run out of space before they run out of tonnage in a manor that does not align with TT very well, Perhaps there is some formula that would allow extra 'space free' heatsinks in order to counter this, either based on engine size, tonnage or weight class.

#27 Random Numbers

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

I would say that I'm surprised or stunned .. but after seeing this development team in action over the last couple of months I'm really not.
Let's take a look at some of the "ideas" they've had so far.
Large weapons are just about useless.. Heat sinks have NEVER worked correctly ...Check out the 2 medium lasers and base 10 engine heatsink bug where the mech can't cooldown without standing in water.
Netcode is so broken every light mech is just about unkillable without tracking weapons.

Honestly you guys just need to rename the game to Jenners online.

Your fail math with double heatsinks is going to boost light mechs even more versus heavy / assaults.

Do us all a favor ... stop trying to balance a real time game on a piece of paper because the issue with with doubleheat sinks was obvious to anyone who actually played. Your fix is basically to nerf the crap out of the heavier mechs again.

Edited by Random Numbers, 02 November 2012 - 12:43 PM.


#28 Mister Blastman

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

View PostWardenWolf, on 02 November 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

What was 'off', and what people noticed that caused players to bring DHS to the Devs attention, was that cooling was *lower* than it should be. And their response? For some people, *slightly* improve cooling - and for others, make cooling worse. Oh, and while they are at it, for some people also make their weapons generate more heat. I sort of wish we'd all been quiet and the DHS had just stayed the way they are now!


Hell no. We shall not remain silent.

[Redacted]

Above 13 DHS, heat dissipation gets worse, not better. They are screwing us over and basically saying--HEY! WE FIXED IT! WE... MADE IT THE SAME IF NOT WORSE THAN BEFORE WHEN IT WAS BROKEN!!!

But... Oh... Hold on players! We made the heatsinks in the engine doubles now! Yes, they're doubles! Ignore the 1.4!

[Redacted]

Edited by Niko Snow, 03 November 2012 - 01:09 PM.
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#29 Deedsie

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 12:51 PM

Seems nothing changef for my Awesome except more heat since I run a pair of Medium Pulse Lasers on it...I was expecting to be able to fire my ER PPCs more.

#30 wanderer

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:04 PM

What they've done is rendered large numbers of DHS...pretty much crit-hogging wastes of space, if they don't fit in your engine.

I can't even get the same heat sinkage out of nerfed DHS that I do out of SHS- because, y'know, crit spaces.

It takes 20 DHS for me to equal 28 DHS. That is, I now need 24 critical spaces outside the engine.

My build didn't happen to have the extra critical spaces required- LRMs and ammo eat up a lot of space, after all. I'll likely have to revert back to an XL/SHS build from a standard engine.

#31 ScatCat54

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:44 PM

Forgive me if I'm missing something as I'm unable to play yet. Aren't you still getting better heat dissipation with your 1.4 rated doubles vs. the singles. You would be comparing 18 singles to 23.8 doubles as in your table on the first page. It's just that above that number you start getting a multiplier of less than 1.4 for additional DHS

#32 Dagrum Darkforge

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

I could live with DHS being at 1.5 if they only needed two crit slots but being 1.4 and still takeing three crits on top of costing 1.5 mil to install useless just utterly useless at 1.4 i admit you get a little more per ton but three crit slots for a .4 increase is fail and dont seem worth it to me

And I hear they have deminishing returns on all heat sinks that dont seem right to me either

#33 Xelrah

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

View PostTennex, on 02 November 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

not only are they NOT buffing PPCs, they are nerfing other lasers and letting Gauss as it is?

Long live gauss cats, Paul's personal fav.

#34 Asmeroth

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:59 PM

...this kinda really hurts Weapons like PPCs that already make your Mech run too hot for the DMG thy provide so well see even less diversity in Weapons as we see now... i can understand that it might make some Builds too strong but the Problem prolly doesnt lie at the DHS and more with the Build and its used Weapons...

#35 TigrisMorte

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:00 PM

View PostDakkath, on 02 November 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:



Fire less often.

:blink:

unless you are firing a gauss. gosh how balanced.
Gauss warriors online w some LRM, lasers (especially pulse) need not apply.

#36 Lightfoot

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:04 PM

View PostKrivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

But isn't over 7 DHS already FAR more DHS than most even put on any mechs? It still makes sense to use DHS when you have the critical slots to spare but not the tonnage. Which is the entire point of them. They shouldn't be outright better than single heat sinks.

I mean, single heat sinks were already better than double heat sinks on an Atlas, but people didn't complain about that.


No. The AWS-9M, which doesn't run now due to overheating on the third shot, has 10 external DHS, and that's all it can carry. They even stuck a 320 XL engine in it to cheat up the number of DHS. So not only doesn't it run now, but it will be even worse after they "FIX" DHS. So, from what they are saying I have to think they are missing something. Or maybe they want 'mechs to run unrealistically hot? Anyway, if the stock energy variants won't run because of overheating, they messed up somewhere.

What really annoys me about this is that the 'mechs that don't need heatsinks get a buff, while 'mechs that need alot of heatsinks get a nerf from what we have now. That's a fix?

#37 Rogue 6

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:06 PM

You forgot, not only will they be changing the DHS to be worse for any Mech with more then 5 of them, they will also be increasing Heat on most Lasers, a weapon MOST Mech's use.. so less HPS and more heat generation in one wonderfull patch. Guess they really do want everyone to use Guass.

#38 Mack1

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:10 PM

Jenners are loving this.

#39 Dakkath

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

View PostTigridMorte, on 02 November 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

unless you are firing a gauss. gosh how balanced.
Gauss warriors online w some LRM, lasers (especially pulse) need not apply.



What's that got to do with anything related to what I was commenting on? Gauss was and still is needing to be tweaked, before and after the DHS adjustment.

#40 Urza Mechwalker

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:15 PM

View PostKrivvan, on 02 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

But isn't over 7 DHS already FAR more DHS than most even put on any mechs? It still makes sense to use DHS when you have the critical slots to spare but not the tonnage. Which is the entire point of them. They shouldn't be outright better than single heat sinks.

I mean, single heat sinks were already better than double heat sinks on an Atlas, but people didn't complain about that.



They SHOULD be outright better. that is why they cost a fortune for a tech 2 module that is supposed to be compeltely superior to the tech 1.

My hopes for this game vanished now. I help a lot.. but If they had released this before Open Beta I would have been one of the refunds they would had to deal with.


The whole idea of DHS is EXATLY that heat shoudl not be a huge concern with anythign but PPCs and ER large lasers.


I do not see mroe than a handful of mechs that shoudl use DHS now.

Thanks PGI.. now I am changing my recomendation on this game on the gammign community I manage from "cautiously optimistic" to " stay away"





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