310 replies to this topic

[nungunz]

CPLT-C1

x2 ER Large Laser

x2 LRM 15

Endo-Steel

XL Engine 300

Single Heat Sink
1.8 Heat Per Second

Current w/ DHS
2.4 Heat Per Second

Proposed (.14) DHS
2.38 Heat Per Second

Cannon (.2 DHS)
3.4 Heat Per Second

Conclusion
So by massively increasing my costs (and repair costs), I get an additional .58 HPS when I should be getting an additional 1.6 HPS. This also gives me a net loss of .02 HPS as compared to the current patch.

The extra .58 HPS really doesn't benefit me as a ranged support mech in the long run. Why should I even bother with the DHS given the current .14 HPS dissipation? Especially considering that this will be less than I'm currently getting right now!

[Vassago Rain]

nungunz, on 02 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

CPLT-C1

x2 ER Large Laser

x2 LRM 15

Endo-Steel

XL Engine 300

Single Heat Sink
1.8 Heat Per Second

Current w/ DHS
2.4 Heat Per Second

Proposed (.14) DHS
2.38 Heat Per Second

Cannon (.2 DHS)
3.4 Heat Per Second

Conclusion
So by massively increasing my costs (and repair costs), I get an additional .58 HPS when I should be getting an additional 1.6 HPS. This also gives me a net loss of .02 HPS as compared to the current patch.

The extra .58 HPS really doesn't benefit me as a ranged support mech in the long run. Why should I even bother with the DHS given the current .14 HPS dissipation? Especially considering that this will be less than I'm currently getting right now!

Can we even list some mechs that would benefit from going with PGI poordubs? A benefit like, any actual benefit, that's not going to lead to a net loss, or asking yourself why you made that poor 1.5 million investment in the first place.

[nungunz]

HBK-4G

x2 AC/5

x3 Medium Lasers

Standard Engine 200

Single Heat Sink
1 Heat Per Second

Current w/ DHS
1 Heat Per Second

Proposed (.14) DHS
1.4 Heat Per Second

Cannon (.2 DHS)
2 Heat Per Second

Conclusion
So by massively increasing my costs (and repair costs), I get an additional .4 HPS when I should be getting an additional 1 HPS.

No real way to justify the expense and repair costs of getting double heat sinks.

[Onyx Rain]

Ok so I think this would be one of the best builds for the Atlas RS and should be possible(and very VIABLE) with DHS if they were fixed so the heat was more in the 1.6-2 range for DHS

4 large lasers
1 gauss with 3 tons of ammo
1 AMS with 1 ton of ammo
2 SRM 6's with 2 tons of ammo
Endo steel (build isn't possible, or at least any better without endo unless I maybe drop to 2 med pulse lasers and fit in more dhs(I forget if that is possible due to weight because of the insane cost of going back to a downgrade after you've upgraded) (Once you pay for it, you shouldn't have to pay every time you switch back and forth...you own both, you should be able to use both at your leisure)
Double heatsinks
standard 300 engine
576/614 armor
14 total heatsinks (4 of which are DHS in the current system, 2 in the engine 2 on the chassi)
Heat rating of 1.13 if the number is to be believed (I swear it is harder to manage the heat at that 1.13 then it was on builds that ran that heat rating before dhs were put in)
18 total cooling? vs 19.8 total cooling when they implement the 1.4 dhs change...barely any better.

I'm getting 1.8 more cooling instead of the 10 extra I'd get if DHS were 2....So I'm getting screwed out of 8.2 extra cooling I should get with DHS when the new system is implemented. DHS were barely worth it in many builds, and while it looks like in this build I'm one of the lucky ones that might still see a slight benefit from the 1.4 change....other builds are actually going to be gimped.

Most seemed feel DHS in the broken system were NOT enough, now they give us a "fixed" system where in some builds it is only very slightly better, and in other builds you are actually worse off then you were before?!?!?!?!?

Anyways because I need endo to get the free weight for the weapons I run out of crit spots to use enough DHS to really bring this build into the realm of viability. (I basically can't use the 2 extra large lasers, or I have to use them instead of firing my srm6's. If I put this in 3 weapon groups of 2 lg+gauss in 2 groups and a 3rd group with the 2 srm6's I can maybe cycle through the 3 groups once before over heating. Chain fire doesn't even help much, I go through the chain once and pretty much overheat if I've fired anything recently before that.

If I drop endo, and manage to get all the weapons on there, even with all the free crit spots I can't fit enough DHS on it to make it viable because I go over weight.

Anyways regardless of it all... I think taking the broken system and repackaging it into a "new" system that is functionally equivalent, barely better, or even worse in some cases and trying to slip it by us "as a fix?!!?!?"....especially when you factor in the changes to pulse weapons (which really need dhs to make them viable in many cases) is just a bad idea.

Don't even do the 1.4 Devs.... Put it in at 1.7-2 and go from there please. Love the game, really trying to be supportive of your work but you lost me on this one.

[nungunz]

And finally!!!!

AS7-D

x4 Medium Lasers

x2 SRM4

x1 Gauss Cannon

Standard Engine 300

Single Heat Sink
2.6 Heat Per Second

Current w/ DHS
3.0 Heat Per Second

Proposed (.14) DHS
2.8 Heat Per Second

Cannon (.2 DHS)
4 Heat Per Second

Conclusion
So by massively increasing my costs (and repair costs), I get an additional .2 HPS when I should be getting an additional 1.4 HPS. That and I actually LOSE a significant amount of heat dissipation from the current implementation.

Doesn't even increase my heat dissipation by a significant amount and it massively increases my repair bill. I might as well just get Endo-Steel and slap on another 5 single sinks.

OVERALL CONCLUSION BASED ON 4 MECHS THAT RUN HIGH HEAT

Granted this isn't a good sample size (I could run you the statistical analysis on this to get a minimum sample size required, but I really don't want to spend the time). HOWEVER, all of the above mechs run pretty high on heat and could really benefit from double heat sinks (the .20 variants). But as it stands......the initial costs and the repair costs for very little gain (or a LOSS in the case of the Atlas) of efficiency makes it completely pointless to ever get double heat sinks (the .14 variants).

Overall impact on the game?

None

Zip

Zilch

Nada

The weak double heat sinks still completely discourage the use of large energy weapons. The cannon DHS values would have made several builds like large lasers and PPCs much more viable. The weak versions just reinforce the fact that it's pointless to take them at all.

And given the nerf to pulse lasers (which are just fine at the moment) in addition....there is no point to run anything other than small lasers or medium lasers.

Edited by nungunz, 02 November 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[CateranEnforcer]

I made a Catapult K2 build.

2xPPCs
1xGauss
15 DHS

I would like to upgrade to ER PPCs and did run with it briefly, but the weapons were simply too hot to use.

Edited by CateranEnforcer, 02 November 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[Draco Argentum]

Stock bloody Awesome. AWS 8Q and 9M. How is it such a big ask for two really simple stock builds to work right?

[Lefty Lucy]

Draco Argentum, on 02 November 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Stock bloody Awesome. AWS 8Q and 9M. How is it such a big ask for two really simple stock builds to work right?

Same. I just want to run a -4sp with an upgraded engine and stock weapons. Without actual double heatsinks the ML just produce too much heat.

[Galaxy Drifter]

Tempered, on 02 November 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

Double heat sinks won't help my 4 large laser jenner I quit.

Seriously, I think you guys are expecting too much. If every build could just hold down the fire button endlessly, why even bother with heat sinks at all?

Not every build. But if you are willing to give up ballistic/missile crits/tons to just run large lasers/ppc's and enough heat sinks to make it practical, what is wrong with that?

[TerebNeerg]

This would actually decrease my effective number of heatsinks on current builds! (Running a CPLT-C1 w/ 20 DHS for 30 effective HS) Under this system, I would have 28 instead.

Running a standard engine, internals and armor.

Weapons:
2 Large Lasers
2 Medium Lasers
2 Streak SRM
1 AMS

[Josef Nader]

AS7-D

H: Endo Steel Crit Slot
CT: Standard 325 (3 internal DHS) | 2x SRM Ammo
LT: 2 SRM6 | 2x DHS
RT: AC20 | 2x AC20 Ammo
LA: Large Laser | AMS | AMS Ammo
RA Large Laser | DHS
RL: 2x AC20 Ammo
LL: AC20 Ammo | SRM Ammo

Rest of the crit slots are Endo. Max armor with a few points off the legs to make it an even ton.

This is the build I -want- to run. With DHS working properly, it has 32 HS worth of cooling, which makes the heat managable. Right now, I'm running a downgraded version with 2 MPLas and 22 total SHS. It's a hot build, and it lacks the one thing I really want; a long range poke with the twin LLas. As it stands, I'm relying on my AC20 at skirmishing distances. It's not the best soloution, but I -was- making due until the DHS fix dropped. Now that DHS are effectively worthless for me in my Atlas, I guess I'll be re-specing my build. I might Finally have to give up on the AC20 as just plain unviable for the heat it generates. I've been avoiding the gauss on princible for the longest time, but since low-heat weapons dominate the game now (and will continue to do so), d'oh well.

[Farmer]

My 3L runs 3xMLAS, 1 LRM10 (2t ammo), and 1 SRM2 (1t ammo) on 12 DHS. 210XL engine and AMS (1t ammo). ES structure. I have 7 crits left open, four of which are legs. I'f I'm careful, I can free up some crits in the torso, but not enough to mount another HS there, even if I had the weight. Assuming TT values of heat:

Running: 2 Heat
3xMLAS: 9 Heat
1xSRM2: 2 Heat
LRM10: 4 Heat
Total: 17 heat

Completely dissipated per standard TT heat rules. On a light, this is a decent generalist build, and not munchkin-y for L2 tech. And one of those weapons has a minimum range.

With the 1.4 HS implementation I'm left with excess heat instead of excess dissipation. In fact, I go from having seven excess dissipation (useful in case one of the four external DHS gets taken out) to have .2 excess heat per volley stock. That's a huge change in efficiency. Just imagine what that's going to to do to stock DHS mechs that were designed around the exact same ideas.

[Faithsfall]

Atm running

CICADA CDA-2B
XL320
AMS
LARGE PULSE
2 SML
13 HS (including engine)
Running heat:1.69

This build atm hit's shutdown very quickly but is managable enough to keep me fighting, would prefer to run with 4SML instead of just the 2 but heat build up just hit's high too quickly especially as i am playing a scout role and taking fire and shooting to discourage anything on me, (anything with streaks that can constantly fire with no seeming risk to shutdown).

With the reduction in DHS and the increase in heat of weapons of choice you will see my pilot stop his cicada get out of his mech and chase down the enemy with a blowtorch as this seems to be more heat effective and that will mean more dps.

[TerebNeerg]

Vassago Rain, on 02 November 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Can we even list some mechs that would benefit from going with PGI poordubs? A benefit like, any actual benefit, that's not going to lead to a net loss, or asking yourself why you made that poor 1.5 million investment in the first place.

Only light mechs mounting 16 or fewer DHS benefit compared to the current implementation of DHS.

Edited by TerebNeerg, 02 November 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[Farmer]

TerebNeerg, on 02 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Only light mechs mounting 16 or fewer DHS benefit.

And then only sort of. Not enough to support most cannon builds post-3039.

[Vassago Rain]

TerebNeerg, on 02 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Only light mechs mounting 16 or fewer DHS benefit.

So uhhh, basically, engine sinks, and anything realistically past that is a net decrease in everything? That's the most backwards 'upgrade' I've ever heard of.

[TerebNeerg]

Vassago Rain, on 02 November 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

So uhhh, basically, engine sinks, and anything realistically past that is a net decrease in everything? That's the most backwards 'upgrade' I've ever heard of.

I meant compared to the current implementation of DHS. I will clarify.

[DerMaulwurf]

Currently trying out how to get PPCs working.

CPLT-K2

240 Standard engine
9 extra double heat sinks
2 PPCs
2 Medium Lasers
AMS /w 1ton ammo

Currently I was able to fire 5 back-to-back double PPC salvoes, before having to retreat for cooldown. I know, that this is a subpar build, because it has much lower firepower than a GaussCat and only a very small advantage in speed to compensate. But I was trying to get used to it, because 19 true DHS could have make it work and I like PPCs. I know that the devs are more concerned about boated Small/Medium Lasers, but they simply completely invalidate anything trying to run 2+ PPCs (not even speaking about ER PPCs). Apparently they sink it's acceptable colateral damage, but it'sd also a shocking amount of iconic BT builds.

[Dragoon Furey]

Founders catapult
currently using 260 engine and 3 external double heat sinks.
it has exactly 14 criticals remaining

Endo + Single sinks would have been cheaper for same cooling factor but i was expecting engine DHS to be fixed.

with the 1.4 cooling DHS its a 13.75% increase in cooling for 850,000 Cbills...

Catapult K2 with 2 ER-PPC 260 Engine and 10 external double heat sinks. (could fire both ER-PPC 3 times before shutdown warning)

With 1.4 cooling and the engine fix its a 7% decrease in cooling from when the engine heat sinks were not doubling...

Their internal test team must be a tiny group of gauss/lrm/small laser boaters, that dident even try to make builds using multiple ER-PPC's, PPC's, or any flavoring of Large Lasers.

[Rugarou]

Lefty Lucy, on 02 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Same. I just want to run a -4sp with an upgraded engine and stock weapons. Without actual double heatsinks the ML just produce too much heat.

Lucy, make the SRM6s --- SSRM2s (1 ton ammo), upgrade to DHS (17 or 18 total I believe), Endo, max armor (almost, like 4 pts shy), slap in a 260 std, and keep the 4x MLS. Runs a touch hot but is totally manageable.

With the spread on SRMs over 75m I find I actually get more damage out of the SSRMs with less hassle in aiming.