310 replies to this topic

[Lerzpftz]

Jenner F - The backstabber.

XL 260 engine running 120 km/h
14 DHS
6xMed Laser
5 Jump Jets (Remember? They will fix them, so the 1 JJ era will be over soon and you need those 2 extra tons.)
AMS + 1 Ton of ammo
192 Armor
Endo steel

Should have: 28 HE with DHS 2.0
Currently has: 10+(4 x 2) = 18 HE
Will have: 14 X 1,4 = 19.6 with DHS 1.4

This thing can shoot twice, before it overheats, than i have to switch to 2 med lasers. Before someone complains of OP-Jenners, i expect netcode to be fixed, jumpjets to be fixed, teams to work together more, players learning to aim and collisions / tripping coming back during the next weeks. Please take this into consideration before a 6 x MedLas jenner frightens you too much. Also: It costs about 9 million to build it. It should be a mean machine for the price of an atlas.

Edited by Lerzpftz, 03 November 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Victor Hestan]

Here is my Standard Atlas-D build:
2x Large Lasers
2x Medium Lasers
1x SRM6 (1 Ton of Ammo)
Standard 300 Engine
40 Heat Sinks

As it stands with the currently "bugged" double heat sinks:
I would have 10 Engine Heat Sinks and 13 Double Heat sinks (Heat Dissipation of 36 SHS)

If I were to change this over to DHS using the Table Top formula:
I would have 23 Heat Sinks (Heat Dissipation of 46 SHS)

If I were to change this over to DHS using the 1.4 Calculation:
I would have 23 Heat Sinks (Heat Dissipation of 32.2 SHS)

Hunchback - 4P
2x Mediums
6x Smalls
260 XL Engine
29 Heat Sinks
Endo-Steel

(below would have Endo-Steel removed)
As it stands with the currently "bugged" double heat sinks:
I would have 10 Engine Heat Sinks and 8 Double Heat sinks (Heat Dissipation of 26 SHS)

If I were to change this over to DHS using the Table Top formula:
I would have 18 Heat Sinks (Heat Dissipation of 36 SHS)

If I were to change this over to DHS using the 1.4 Calculation:
I would have 18 Heat Sinks (Heat Dissipation of 26 SHS)

I doubt this helps my case anyway, but I figured I would post my build

[Selfish]

Dragon 1C
325 XL
4x ML
1x SRM 4 (1 ton)
Ultra AC5 (2 ton)
AMS (1 ton)
Endo-Steel
16 HS (6 DHS)

Overall: Improvement. 16EHS --> 22.4 EHS

[PaintedWolf]

Victor Hestan, on 03 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Here is my Standard Atlas-D build:
2x Large Lasers
2x Medium Lasers
1x SRM6 (1 Ton of Ammo)
Standard 300 Engine
40 Heat Sinks

30 tons for HS? Damn!

[Yokaiko]

PaintedWolf, on 03 November 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

30 tons for HS? Damn!

You need 16 heatsinks PER large laser to fire on cycle.

That thing still run hot.

[PaintedWolf]

Awesome 8Q:

x4 MPL
x3 LPL

54 km/h - Standard Engine
Max Armor

48 Heat Generated with Alpha Strike, 40 Heat Sunk (20 DHS). Just a mean freakin' Zombie Mech.

Yokaiko, on 03 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

You need 16 heatsinks PER large laser to fire on cycle.

That thing still run hot.

Just so used to DHS that the number seems absurd.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 03 November 2012 - 02:17 PM.

[Magnumaniac]

How about just making a stock AWS-8Q work as designed (so you can fire the PPCs continuously in a 3-3-2 cycle). Either with single or double heat sinks, doesn't matter. It currently needs 72 heat dissipation (impossible right now).

I think this gives a clue that the problem isn't with the heat sink values, but with energy weapon heat values in general when compared to other weapon types.

[PaintedWolf]

Sway backs might get more awesome.

[Toolan]

Chassis Name: Awesome
Model Name: AWS-9M
Variant Name: LLPULS

Engine: 380 XL Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel
Armor Type: Std Armor
Heat Sinks: 19 (15) Double Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 80
Speed: 77,0 kph
Armor Total: 480
Alpha Strike Damage: 44,00
Alpha Strike Heat: 38,00
Firepower: 11,40 dps
Heat Efficiency: 15,46%
Effective Range of Loadout: 180m

Armor full

Right Arm:
Large Pulse Laser
7*Endo Steel


Left Arm:
AMS Ammo
7*Endo Steel

Right Torso:
Medium Pulse Laser
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink
AMS

Left Torso:
Double Heat Sink
Double Heat Sink
Large Pulse Laser

Center Torso:
Medium Pulse Laser
Medium Pulse Laser

Head:
Medium Pulse Laser

Right Leg:

Left Leg:
AMS Ammo

File created using MWO Mechbay

Edited by Toolan, 03 November 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[Scratx]

Hmm. I'll run through my founder Catapult build at every stage and I'll explain reasoning and how DHS affects it, I think. Or how I expected to be able to build it with 2.0 DHS over the bugged DHS and the incoming 1.4 DHS. Current CPLT build at end of post for the TL;DR crowd .

Starting with the base C1, I first swapped out LRM15's for LRM10's, added 2t ammo and 2 heatsinks. This gave me endurance at the cost of alpha and AMS penetration. It's a good tradeoff most of the time atm, and I used it all the way until the patch that introduced DHS.

What I expected to do once DHS hit was the following: Swap out LRM10's for 15's again, add 2 more tons of ammo (keeps endurance the same), add CASE and fill out the rest of the tonnage (if any) with DHS, including the "20" heat sinkage in the engine.

Well, I did that, until I found out it was bugged. I think I also added Endo-Steel, but most of that went to armor I think.

So I downgraded back to LRM10's with 5t ammo and stuffed in 6 DHS. It's a snug build in that there are no crits left whatsoever. It's a standard engine build, by the way, I avoid XL for survivability reasons.

With the incoming DHS at 1.4 , ironically the new build will have 22,4 effective sinks, over the 22 it currently has. It's basically the same heat sinkage.

Now, what was the original goal of the build? Two and a half plus minutes of constant 2xLRM15 fire, good sinkage (but not neutral) for laser fire (yes, 4xML), keep Jumpjets and standard engine at 260+. Double Heat Sinks in the engine was practically critical to my original plan because it'd let me take out the 7 heatsinks I had to add all the hardware I needed (as outlined) and still have slightly better sinkage than I had before.

Well, that's effectively impossible with DHS at 1.4 and the irony is that I am just about as well served now as I'll be come November 6th.


For reference, here's the FULL build of my current CPLT-C1F:

LA:
LRM 10
DHS

LT:
MLas
2xJumpjet
CASE
2xDHS

CT:
2x MLas
Standard Engine 260

RT:
MLas
2xJumpjet
CASE
2xDHS
LRM Ammo

RA:
LRM 10
DHS

LL:
2x LRM Ammo

RL:
2x LRM Ammo

Armor: 384 pts Standard (why anybody would use FF over ES without ignorance in the mix is beyond me)
Structure: Endo-Steel
Free Crits: ZERO.
Heat Eff. : 1.46
Firepower : 60
Speed: 64.8Kph


This is, literally, a build that come Nov 6th is going to be basically unchanged in heat buildup... unless I got my math wrong.

(edit: I'm aware that changing engine to XL and taking out Endo-Steel would probably let me reach all but one of those goals of mine and even exceed them ... but it means making my mech much more brittle under fire. I happen to be good at torso twisting and letting side torsos absorb a lot of damage...)

Edited by Scratx, 03 November 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

PaintedWolf, on 03 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

Awesome 8Q:

x4 MPL
x3 LPL

54 km/h - Standard Engine
Max Armor

48 Heat Generated with Alpha Strike, 40 Heat Sunk (20 DHS). Just a mean freakin' Zombie Mech.



Just so used to DHS that the number seems absurd.

Except in MWO, you'd be grossly, grossly under-sinked, even with full 2.0 DHS.

Those lasers fire roughly three times per 10 seconds, so the mech actually generates about 120 heat per 10 seconds, and only dissipates 40 heat per 10 seconds *with full double heat sinks*.

I don't see how the devs can seriously claim that 2.0 DHS remove all heat issues.

[Arcturious]

Vassago Rain, on 03 November 2012 - 04:32 AM, said:

So they'll start it at 1.4...and then double it?

What is this? Diablo 3? That's what killed that game, too. Do it right the first time. It's not hard to make an item that's like another item, except it's twice as good.

Perhaps I am just naive (freely admit it lol) but I'm hoping that when the sky doesn't fall at 1.4, they inch it up to 1.6, 1.8 then to the 2.0 it should be. When the sky still doesn't fall it can stay there.

In reality what will happen is they will inch it up until the forum complaints for laser boating equal the number of complaints for gauss / streak srm etc. That's the only method to determine the community's idea of balanced at the moment. There's probably a formula that looks like this:

Balance = Complaints per minute / realistic expectations

I'm estimating that to be at around the 1.7-1.9 mark.

[Lefty Lucy]

Arcturious, on 03 November 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Perhaps I am just naive (freely admit it lol) but I'm hoping that when the sky doesn't fall at 1.4, they inch it up to 1.6, 1.8 then to the 2.0 it should be. When the sky still doesn't fall it can stay there.

In reality what will happen is they will inch it up until the forum complaints for laser boating equal the number of complaints for gauss / streak srm etc. That's the only method to determine the community's idea of balanced at the moment. There's probably a formula that looks like this:

Balance = Complaints per minute / realistic expectations

I'm estimating that to be at around the 1.7-1.9 mark.

Even with full DHS, a mech with 20 DHS can only sink the heat output of a single PPC.

[Xantha]

I wanted to actually shift my 4sp hunchback to be more versatile by switching 2 ML to Large Lasers using Endo Steel and DHS. Shifting these down to 1.4 heat and given the cost, I'll just leave my 4SP as a ML boat or *gasp* shift to the most powerful weapon in the game LRMs.

[Kousagi]

My Founder atlas setup,

3 Large lasers
2 SSRM2 - 2 tons of ammo
43 SHS
260 standard

So, 4.3 heat per sec bled, with 4.95 heat per sec created by just the large lasers on cycle.

With a DHS setup for it

3 large lasers
2 SSRM2 - 2 tons of ammo
25 DHS
350 Standard

So if DHS were 2.0, then it would bleed 5 heat per sec vs the 4.95 created by the large lasers, making a heat neutral mech if you only fired large lasers. My most likely action though would be to drop one DHS for a AMS and 1 ton of ammo, making it so it could over heat by firing only Large lasers.

With DHS as 1.4, 35 effective heat sinks... So 3.5 heat bled per sec. Worse then the single heat sink build, by a very large margin.

And this is with a mech setup for most of its tonnage to support 3 Large lasers that have a weaker alpha strike then duel guass cannons, with less range. Now you could recreate this a bit on a RS atlas, with 4 large lasers and drop the SSRM's but it would also lose 1 DHS, 2 if ya wanted a AMS too.

[Onyx Rain]

nungunz, on 03 November 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Oh! Didn't realize this. That's not actually that bad, then. I'm okay with this change now.

Uh, ya it is...

First...
in actual use, especially with the quicker recycle time I think most of us felt med pulse was fine or actually running a little hot. Either way the fix is going to make them a lot worse then they were, and they were barely worth their weight/heat/dmg as it was in the minds of a lot of people.

Second...
Large pulse lasers were finally getting useful after some of the tweaks they did. DHS was expected to bring the large energy weapons up to par compared to the other actually useful weapons in game. Finally solidifying lg pulse as a decent weapon, and getting ppc/erpp and er large lasers to finally be viable in more then a tiny handful of builds. THEY SCREWED THAT UP.

Third....
Anyone remember small pulse lasers? They do the same dmg as smalls...no help there. They have the same recycle time...no help there. They have 1 more heat...so that makes them worse then regular smalls. They have a .25 shorter beam duration which sounds good but when they do 1.09 dps compared to a small's 1 dps... It doesn't mean much...not when you factor in the extra ton, and more heat. If you can spend the weight on anything else, small pulse are basically never worth it. And guess what???...They're about to get worse due to the fix.

Fourth...
They take a dhs system they themselves said was broken...and are fixing it by replacing it with a system that is overall functionally equivalent to the broken system because builds that benefit will only do so very slightly compared to now...less so if they use any pulse weapons and/or small lasers. Might even be gimped compared to now....and other builds will be gimped. Overall result is the "fix" is at least as bad as the "broken system"...add the pulse/small laser changes on top of it and it is worse.

Fifth..
If you are going to change the system and call it a fix, especially when heat being to harsh is one of the main complaints about the game you should replace it with a "fix" that at the very least doesn't nerf any builds currently using dhs. Ideally at the very least every build currently using DHS should see a benefit.... That isn't happening though. A backwards step in game balance.

Edited by Onyx Rain, 03 November 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[lceman]

So I posted in this thread before about my 5 Small 4 Med hunchie and how I was going to be losing HE anyway you looked at it before. THEN I was told they were upping the heat on smalls? Lol? Even with 9 small's (which is a pretty gimped laze hunchie) that crap is gonna be so hot its unreal. Lol at 1.4 being the "fix."

Here is an idea... And a pretty well thought out one (I believe)

Make the engine HS's 1.4-1.7
Make the slotted HS's 2.0.
This way, you wont see gauss cats with 4 mediums able to fire those lasers like crazy, yet every single double HS you slot is going to be better and better. Meaning, the more DHS's you slot, the more helpful the upgrade will be. Also, it still gives the extra in the engine to make all mechs get *some/most* of the benefit they are supposed to get by upgrading. And the choice will remain, "do i need the weight or do i need the crit slots."

EDIT: Before I said 1.4-1.7. It needs to be 1.6-1.7 for the engines after doing some maths. Sorry for the post without fully thinking through it.

Edited by lceman, 03 November 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Team Leader]

lceman, on 03 November 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

So I posted in this thread before about my 5 Small 4 Med hunchie and how I was going to be losing HE anyway you looked at it before. THEN I was told they were upping the heat on smalls? Lol? Even with 9 small's (which is a pretty gimped laze hunchie) that crap is gonna be so hot its unreal. Lol at 1.4 being the "fix."

Here is an idea... And a pretty well thought out one (I believe)

Make the engine HS's 1.4-1.7
Make the slotted HS's 2.0.
This way, you wont see gauss cats with 4 mediums able to fire those lasers like crazy, yet every single double HS you slot is going to be better and better. Meaning, the more DHS's you slot, the more helpful the upgrade will be. Also, it still gives the extra in the engine to make all mechs get *some/most* of the benefit they are supposed to get by upgrading. And the choice will remain, "do i need the weight or do i need the crit slots."

This is exactly what I was thinking Iceman. Make the engine DHS gimped if they must, but all placed ones should still do double.

[Darvaza]

Atlas AS7-RS

LRM 20
LRM 15
2 Large lasers
1 AMS
23 total single heat sinks.

When Artemis is added it has the space to add two of them by removing heat sinks.

having to take an additional 10 tons of single heat sinks prohibits using 4 large lasers and limits you to 2 large lasers. Forget about dumping the LRM's for Large Pulse lasers because the LRM's are needed for damage since the lasers will cause you to continuously overheat.

The decreased heat efficacy of the expensive not so double heat sinks which now take up too much space for what they do also limits the now increased heat of using lasers in the first place.



Decrease the amount of critical space needed for the adjusted level of heat sinks. Do not call them double heat sinks. Do not charge as much for them in the upgrade. It is not worth it.

Do not ever introduce clan tech... you will not be able to handle how good it is compared to Innersphere.

[Onyx Rain]

Team Leader, on 03 November 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

This is exactly what I was thinking Iceman. Make the engine DHS gimped if they must, but all placed ones should still do double.

That would at least be better then the current broken system, better then the fix which is still just as broken of a system, and not as OP as true dhs in the engines and on the mech MIGHT be. I could live with that system.