293 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

PropagandaWar, on 05 November 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

I ended up going into some NGNG dropships last night rather than running with my team. I am a medium hunch/cent pilot generally short to med range. I ended up dropping with guys in heavy and assault mech missle boats who were all nice peeps. The threeish maps in Mountain Colony they dominated and it was easy to see why. rather than running inside from the getgo the majority of pilots got trapped up in their base or went after the jenny jennersons. I saw little to know ams. So it was a wash. RiverCity our boats were squashed because op used cover coming in. The point is the counter to lrm boats on most occasions is to use cover get close and load AMS. Is 1.5 - 3 tons of AMS that big of inconvience if your all dead. Umbrella up peeps. Then when ECM comes double it up. Stay near cliffs, go tunnel Hug buildingsand, get your fasties in at the first sight of lrm fire,.

If you are lrm heavy on river city then push up the river, keeping 200m apart....your lrm boats will not be the fastest so your lights and non lrm mediums can quickly gain targets and force them into hiding, then when your team gets to their base (and you will be quicker because you took a far more direct route) they need to get out of any cover they have found halfway round the map to sit in the middle of a wide open base nicely in range for your lrms. If they rush you then brilliant, they have just given up all cover and as long as your whole lrm team does not just switch to their lasers and shoot the closest light...(which a lot of self professed "lrm teams" do..) and keep lrming the people shooting at your friends...as they lrm the people on you....so you do far more damage and ofc have your own tags so 90% of the missiles hitting torsos well...it is always an easy victory if they rush you

[Quxudica]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

I'll say this again. The issue isn't that you can't counter LRMs. The issue is that the LRMs dictate the entire tactics and strategy of the battlefield. It allows 1-2 tactics and one real strategy. That is bad for the long term of the game. Look at LoL, far from balanced, but when one champion or item begins dictating how the match goes that champion is nerfed or changed because it is too powerful.

Nuance is not something most people deal with well. If something isn't blatantly broken in some very obvious way then many will refuse to believe there is anything wrong with it at all. Personally I think the real issue with LRMs, and SSRMs to a lesser extent, lies not just with the numbers but with the weapon mechanics. Using LRMs feels like a very lopsided investment of effort compared to the results, it's not remotely hard to use them yet can easily rule entire matches.

[Baltasar]

I predominately play lights and mediums (although I have played an lrm boat from time to time). Other than a few places where missles do go through some of the structures (known issue being worked on), its not all the time. As, scout, when we have LRMs on my team, I'm constantly telling my guys to stop fire on such and such target or shift fire, because missles are hitting, wait for it...cover! As a med, when we see that the other team is LRM heavy, then me and other decently fast meds or lights. Choose an avenue of approach that gives us protection from them (they are their on every map although caustic you sometimes have to be creative) our slow movers sit back till we flank and then can move up or drop missles of their own. Also, missle boats tend to have to drop back to cover when guass cannons or ppcs start to pop them in the face also forcing a stop fire.

Are their a lot of LRMS? Well considing three of the trial mechs have them, yes. Are they OP? Currently they are strong especially with a good scout. With a great scout they are deadly like they are suppose to be. Are they game breaking? Currently, play smart, they are not. And with PLANNED CHANGES, that are coming soon and will make LRMS even less of an issue. Matchmaking also will help, not for the premade/pug issue because trial mechs drop a lot of LRMS as well, but because hopefully it will do better at dropping a more balanced weight load and allow for better movement on missles.

Edited by Baltasar, 05 November 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Wispsy]

Khobai, on 05 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

The reason LRMs are problematic is because the base assault gamemode favors the defender. Whichever team commits first tends to lose which often results in a mexican standoff.

The solution is a gamemode which forces both teams out of their comfort zone of defending.

lrms are stronger when used aggressively....but nvm most people seem to look at them as defending weapons...I guess because of tradition?

[Noth]

Quxudica, on 05 November 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Nuance is not something most people deal with well. If something isn't blatantly broken in some very obvious way then many will refuse to believe there is anything wrong with it at all. Personally I think the real issue with LRMs, and SSRMs to a lesser extent, lies not just with the numbers but with the weapon mechanics. Using LRMs feels like a very lopsided investment of effort compared to the results, it's not remotely hard to use them yet can easily rule entire matches.

Think you for understanding. I'm glad someone gets it. The damge drop suggestion was just a simple way to help mitigate them.

This post: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1355840

Gives a great run down on why the LRMs are so powerful when compared to other weapons along with an interesting way to change the LRMs to cut down on their raw power.

[PropagandaWar]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

I'll say this again. The issue isn't that you can't counter LRMs. The issue is that the LRMs dictate the entire tactics and strategy of the battlefield. It allows 1-2 tactics and one real strategy. That is bad for the long term of the game. Look at LoL, far from balanced, but when one champion or item begins dictating how the match goes that champion is nerfed or changed because it is too powerful.

They dont dictate the fight when you close in they become useless.

First Counter: You can send in one jenner which tends to send them into a panic. 1 wee mech. they scatter and die.
Second counter: AMS Umbrellas. Yeah simple. Enough of them and those lrms suck
Third Counter: Hug buildings and cliffs close in on them. The only real open map is Caustic and you still have plenty of cover there
Fourth Counter: GAuss em at 1200 meters
Fifth Counter: LRM them back.
Sixth Counter: power down
Seventh Counter: ECM which will be here soon.
Eighth Counter: Invite them out for a beer.

Damn that's 8 counters.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 05 November 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[Kell Draygo]

One easy change to make LRMs balanced is to make them fire like Streaks. Don't have them launch up in the air like artillery. All other weapons require line of sight and line of fire, make LRMs the same.

[Levo]

This version of MW will die in a barrage of missals. I love the BT universe. This is not what I expected..well sorta. The money gouging these devs have going on is or should be illegal. I'm kicking my self in the can for spending cash on this game.


FAIL FAIL

[Baltasar]

Kell Draygo, on 05 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

One easy change to make LRMs balanced is to make them fire like Streaks. Don't have them launch up in the air like artillery. All other weapons require line of sight and line of fire, make LRMs the same.

No, just no. I don't know what they would be but they wouldn't be Long ranged missles anymore. Honestly I think the take off angle should be raised more or at least be adjustible. That is how artillery is supposed to work.

[Noth]

PropagandaWar, on 05 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

They dont dictate the fight when you close in they become useless. You cant counter it ok fine I say wrong.
First Counter: You can send in one jenner which tends to send them into a panic. 1 wee mech. they scatter and die.
Second counter: AMS Umbrellas. Yeah simple enough of them and those lrms suck
Third Counter: Hug buildings and cliffs close in on them. The only real open map is Caustic and you still have plenty of cover there
Fourth Counter: GAuss em at 1200 meters
Fifth Counter: LRM them back.
Sixth Counter: power down
Seventh Counter: ECM which will be here soon.
Eighth Counter: Invite them out for a beer.

Damn that's 8 counters.

I see 2 actual counters there, one actually requires you to have a build specifically for it. GR exposes itself to do pathetic damage at max range. LRMs boats move into range and just LRM down the poor guass users. LRM as a counter just proves the power of the current LRMs.

ECM will be a must and render LRMs completely useless thus we see a swing in the other direction which simply is not good either.

LRMs dictate the battlefield as there are so few ways counter them. You either use cover and pray you lights can get to them, or sit under an AMS umbrella.

[Solis Obscuri]

Wow, more QQ for no-skill beamspam n00bs who don't understand how to keep a hill between them and the enemy fire support...

[Baltasar]

Levo, on 05 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

This version of MW will die in a barrage of missals. I love the BT universe. This is not what I expected..well sorta. The money gouging these devs have going on is or should be illegal. I'm kicking my self in the can for spending cash on this game.


FAIL FAIL

Calm down, go on the porch and drink some Corona. There are quite a bit of changes coming down the line that will drastically effect missles. Stuff is being done. This is open BETA and not a full launch yet. A lot of stuff is still being changed and balanced. Be patient.

[Noth]

Solis Obscuri, on 05 November 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Wow, more QQ for no-skill beamspam n00bs who don't understand how to keep a hill between them and the enemy fire support...

LoL no skill beam spammers. I guarantee you it takes more skill for me to do damage with a beam weapon than it does with an LRM.

[Baltasar]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

. GR exposes itself to do pathetic damage at max range. LRMs boats move into range and just LRM down the poor guass users. LRM as a counter just proves the power of the current LRMs.

It's not necessarily the damage you need. Its the fact that the LRM boat is getting hit. after a couple of rounds the general thought is, "crap i'm taking damage. I should move." Results, break in missle fire, counter effective. One GR mech a team does not make. The idea is to break the missle fire long enough for your team to counter it. Or snipe and when position is compromised move. Your mech is not glued to one spot.

[Noth]

Baltasar, on 05 November 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

It's not necessarily the damage you need. Its the fact that the LRM boat is getting hit. after a couple of rounds the general thought is, "crap i'm taking damage. I should move." Results, break in missle fire, counter effective. One GR mech a team does not make. The idea is to break the missle fire long enough for your team to counter it. Or snipe and when position is compromised move. Your mech is not glued to one spot.

That's not what I've experienced. I've seen this attempted, the LRMs just moved closer while LRMing their current targets and then LRMed the guass user chasing it off allowing them to go back to the main group who had no time to to mount a counter. LRMs can counter everything minus hiding in cover and sitting under a mass of AMS.

[Baltasar]

Also, in response to the lack of nuance and tactics and counters. Are you looking for a foot ball play book? Most military tactics are pretty simple and not a whole lot varied. Maybe some minor changes here and there but basic concepts remain.

[Wispsy]

Solis Obscuri, on 05 November 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Wow, more QQ for no-skill beamspam n00bs who don't understand how to keep a hill between them and the enemy fire support...

I do not understand this....LRMs are the one weapon that fires right up over hills?

[Baltasar]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

That's not what I've experienced. I've seen this attempted, the LRMs just moved closer while LRMing their current targets and then LRMed the guass user chasing it off allowing them to go back to the main group who had no time to to mount a counter. LRMs can counter everything minus hiding in cover and sitting under a mass of AMS.

I've seen it work several times. In case it doesn't you move to Plan B. Choose another counter. Depending on the person you are facing depends on your tactics. If something isn't working do something else. Battle is fluid. Adapt and overcome. I've backed down lrm boats before with a coupple of ERPPC rounds. other times I had to find cover and change tactics. Variety is the spice of life.

[Wildger]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Again, it's just one specific style and strategy. It's getting stale. Games that have a weapon that dictates such a thing tend to nerf that weapon.

The best most varied matches I've been in have been Light on LRMs. it allowed multiple strategies and shifting of strategies since being in the open didn't mean you were blanketed with LRMs.

This is an extremely NAIVE statement. When you got torn apart by LRM's, this is usually what happened:

Most likely, you were in PUG. Your scouts moved forward. Unforunately, without having good skills and knowing where to hide, they got killed pretty fast. On the other hand, your enemy scouts (especially from Pre-made), charged into your back or bases and danced over the places. Half of your team went after it. Your missils boats fired volley after volley of LRM's but casuing littel damage. Meanwhile, your enemy's big hitters charged down in open space. Your team had no choice but to meet them out in the open. Guess what happened next? Your missile boats were either tied down, out of ammo or killed. On the other hand, your enemy's missile boats were able to get into a good position with wide open view and achieved solid lock on to your entire team. You had nothing to encouter at this time but waited to be slaughtered one by one. This happens almost in every case when someone complains of LRM being overpowered. This is how Pre-made can achieve 8-0 win.

The truth is that you will still be slaughtered by something else. After LRM, it will be gauss rifles, SSRM, etc., one weapon after another weapon. I also hope you realize that every team tries to field gauss rifles, SSRM, etc as well. Does that mean they are OP as well? I don't think so.

[Noth]

Baltasar, on 05 November 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Also, in response to the lack of nuance and tactics and counters. Are you looking for a foot ball play book? Most military tactics are pretty simple and not a whole lot varied. Maybe some minor changes here and there but basic concepts remain.

I'm looking for a game. This is a game and is fairly light in the sim elements. I and most gamer like variety in their games. Games that can't produce that variety in gameplay (particularly one with so few maps) are doomed to struggle. Again, look at LoL. For the longest time it had one map, but the varieties of tactics and strategies you could do kept it refreshing so that people stayed instead of getting bored with lack of content.

Baltasar, on 05 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

I've seen it work several times. In case it doesn't you move to Plan B. Choose another counter. Depending on the person you are facing depends on your tactics. If something isn't working do something else. Battle is fluid. Adapt and overcome. I've backed down lrm boats before with a coupple of ERPPC rounds. other times I had to find cover and change tactics. Variety is the spice of life.

Plan B is sit in cover and hope your lights can get close to the LRMs. Again so few actual tactics for use. Dropping with very few LRMs I see more tactics in the first five minutes than I see in an entire match heavy with LRMs.