293 replies to this topic

[Cel]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

I'm looking for a game. This is a game and is fairly light in the sim elements. I and most gamer like variety in their games. Games that can't produce that variety in gameplay (particularly one with so few maps) are doomed to struggle. Again, look at LoL. For the longest time it had one map, but the varieties of tactics and strategies you could do kept it refreshing so that people stayed instead of getting bored with lack of content.



Plan B is sit in cover and hope your lights can get close to the LRMs. Again so few actual tactics for use. Dropping with very few LRMs I see more tactics in the first five minutes than I see in an entire match heavy with LRMs.

You'll never convince someone who is not willing to listen to reason.

[Cybermech]

Lrm's are going to get even better.
I presume they are collecting stats about the effects.
Ecm will change missiles so going to have to wait till that comes out to really judge how missiles effect the game

[Baltasar]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Plan B is sit in cover and hope your lights can get close to the LRMs. Again so few actual tactics for use. Dropping with very few LRMs I see more tactics in the first five minutes than I see in an entire match heavy with LRMs.

The more people who start learning to close in under cover and wipe out LRM heavy teams the more people will stop using them (that and vary the trial mechs a little more weapon wise). If people learn to use the boring tractics against these builds and start wiping the floor with them then they can make them less vialble. But hey if it works for them right now then they have no incentive to change. However, ECM is coming right around the corner which can make these threads pointless when it hits. (and then maybe not we'll see how it plays)

Cel, on 05 November 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

You'll never convince someone who is not willing to listen to reason.

Works both ways.

[Noth]

Baltasar, on 05 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

The more people who start learning to close in under cover and wipe out LRM heavy teams the more people will stop using them (that and vary the trial mechs a little more weapon wise). If people learn to use the boring tractics against these builds and start wiping the floor with them then they can make them less vialble. But hey if it works for them right now then they have no incentive to change. However, ECM is coming right around the corner which can make these threads pointless when it hits. (and then maybe not we'll see how it plays)



Works both ways.

ECM can potentially render LRMs useless which is not good either. It will either become mandatory like AMS currently or be useless. Again not really adding anything to the variety of the match. Them stopping because people start using the only tactics they can against it doesn't actually fix the problem, it just sweeps it under the rug.

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 01:14 PM.

[ZoomThruPoom]

Spamwarrior Online.

[Havyek]

Here's an idea. Kill the scout.

As soon as LOS is lost, the LRM loses lock. The missiles will only still hit if you're standing in the same location as when they were fired.

LRM boats are near worthless without a scout picking up targets for them, or a brawler or 2 maintaining target lock.
If LRM boats need to get LOS, they are usually out in the open for Gauss/PPC/LLas blasts and concentrated fire will kill a LRM boat before it's scattered damage can take you out.

Don't stand still. A moving target is always more difficult to hit, and if you become a target, then the scout loses LOS, you'll still get hit by the incoming barrage if you haven't moved from your location.

[Corbon Zackery]

EveryTrial mech has a missle pack on it except for the Raven it the easyest system for rookies to use since they just point lock on and shoot.

So yea its missle city right now.

Awsome 2 LRM 15
Cent with LRM 10
Dragon with a LRM 10

None of them have CASE so you want to burn off ammo first so you dont explode when you go into brawler combat.

Yea its missle city right now.

[Baltasar]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

ECM can potentially render LRMs useless which is not good either. It will either become mandatory like AMS currently or be useless. Again not really adding anything to the variety of the match. Them stopping because people start using the only tactics they can against it doesn't actually fix the problem, it just sweeps it under the rug.

Which is why we'll have to see how it's implemented. They already said that they had to do some more work on it due to some builds with it make it OP. So, they are at least working on it. When it comes out I expect some issues with it and they will have to balance things, more than likely, since this community is very effective of finding killer ways to use things. Like, its been said, at this point with LRMs I think its better to really wait and see with the new items being added before adjustments are really made.

[Noth]

BDU Havoc, on 05 November 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Here's an idea. Kill the scout.

As soon as LOS is lost, the LRM loses lock. The missiles will only still hit if you're standing in the same location as when they were fired.

LRM boats are near worthless without a scout picking up targets for them, or a brawler or 2 maintaining target lock.
If LRM boats need to get LOS, they are usually out in the open for Gauss/PPC/LLas blasts and concentrated fire will kill a LRM boat before it's scattered damage can take you out.

Don't stand still. A moving target is always more difficult to hit, and if you become a target, then the scout loses LOS, you'll still get hit by the incoming barrage if you haven't moved from your location.

any scout worth it's salt will not be allowing you any clean shots on it while TAGing you and your group. Let alone there are usually multiple spotters.

[Saint Rigid]

The problem is not that LRMs are uber-OP... the problem is their mechanics. LRMs allow you to fire multiple times while ammo is still in the air on the way to it's target. By the time first wave hits you it's likely that three waves of missiles are behind it with the fourth wave leaving the tubes. No other weapons really function like this. And I do think that they "seem" to cause too much damage. I mean, just look at the Firepower rating for mechs with LRMs and mechs without it... it's a little ridiculous. I'm not big on "purity with the TT"... but in case no one noticed missiles currently do TWICE the amount of damage that they do on the table. But I can actually live with that... IF the mechanics were different. I think that the reload time needs to be increased BUT to help them stay effective (not totally nerfed) increase the speed at which they fly through the air. This helps to prevent the "stream of death" that tends to happen.

Here's an experiment... take the Trial Awesome out for a spin. When the match starts stare at the sky and hold down fire on your missiles. Missiles just reload too fast.

Additionally, increasing the reload time helps the metagame. If you can't fire as many missiles you end up firing less missiles over the course of the match, allowing you to save weight on ammo for other aspects on your mech. Alternatively it motivates you to take larger LRM caliburs so that you can squeeze more damage inbetween intervals. If you notice, most of the people who complain about LRMs (including myself) aren't complaining because they got hit with a single volley and it cored them (I have most definitely crested a hill and been hit by like four mechs simultaneous LRMs while trying to reverse direction. It sucked... but it also felt tense and AWESOME! i.e. fun). They complaint is that missiles hit them repetitively in a constant stream. I don't believe that the indrect fire support role falls under the category of damage per second, but that's what it has come down to. Unfortunately, the current climate does not give people motivation to dabble with LRMs. If your mech has a bunch of lasers and only one LRM5... it's largely seen as a joke. It is a black or white, Missile Boat or Nothing kind of scene, and that's not ideal.

This problem can at times be compounded by the strange way that large LRMs fit into different mechs. When you fire an LRM15, but your mech chassis can only "handle" an LRM5 it takes three bursts of missiles to reach the desired output. But this output is not the original intention, it almost gives some people a way to cheat their missile slots (or from the other direction, cheats them out of how they wanted to use their missile slot... for a big burst of missile action). I feel that this only contributes to the LRMDPS problem.

To summarize: longer reload... shorter flight time. In my opinion at least.

[Devils Advocate]

BDU Havoc, on 05 November 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Here's an idea. Kill the scout.

As soon as LOS is lost, the LRM loses lock. The missiles will only still hit if you're standing in the same location as when they were fired.

LRM boats are near worthless without a scout picking up targets for them, or a brawler or 2 maintaining target lock.
If LRM boats need to get LOS, they are usually out in the open for Gauss/PPC/LLas blasts and concentrated fire will kill a LRM boat before it's scattered damage can take you out.

Don't stand still. A moving target is always more difficult to hit, and if you become a target, then the scout loses LOS, you'll still get hit by the incoming barrage if you haven't moved from your location.

The scouts are invincible right now. We'll see if this netcode rollback helps with that, though they still claim there's going to be a hard time hitting fast mechs. If you can't actually kill the jenner because it runs through everybody's legs with no collision and has to be lead with lasers based on your connection speed we still have an issue.

[PropagandaWar]

Levo, on 05 November 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

This version of MW will die in a barrage of missals. I love the BT universe. This is not what I expected..well sorta. The money gouging these devs have going on is or should be illegal. I'm kicking my self in the can for spending cash on this game.


FAIL FAIL

Games fun been playing it for a while now and spent quite a bit of money on it one poster. Its open beta and rarely do I run into lrm boat teams.

Here's another idea if everyone stops running in assaults chances are they will encouter less lrm boats.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 05 November 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[wanderer]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

I'll say this again. The issue isn't that you can't counter LRMs. The issue is that the LRMs dictate the entire tactics and strategy of the battlefield. It allows 1-2 tactics and one real strategy. That is bad for the long term of the game. Look at LoL, far from balanced, but when one champion or item begins dictating how the match goes that champion is nerfed or changed because it is too powerful.

You know what I heard a few patches back?

Gausscats defined the battle. OMG, THEY HAVE MULTIPLE GAUSSCATS, I GOT CORED AT 1100m, I CAN'T GO ON THE LAKE ON FOREST OR SNIPERS WILL GET MEEEEEEEE!

You know what I hear from premades these days?

LRM carriers exploding. A tactic becomes over-used when nobody learns to apply it's counters- and LRMs have those counters. I've seen them applied repeatedly. The reason you see so many LRM carriers is because of one thing- there are plenty of stupid targets easily blown to bits by them.

That's it. If more LRM users experienced the joys of frustration because they got whomped while the other team had the brain cells to go to cover, flanked, and ran 90m circles around that Catapult whilst peeling his arms off....you'd see fewer LRM users. If 3/4 Trials didn't have LRMs, you'd see....fewer LRM users.

LRMs are common on and highly effective against newbies. And those newbies, like PUGs in every patch, don't learn jack.

LRMs are common because they're "easy", and easy to win with because they're "common".

[hanitora]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

any scout worth it's salt will not be allowing you any clean shots on it while TAGing you and your group. Let alone there are usually multiple spotters.

Scouts are protected by lag armour, but TAG and missiles work on them. Both LRMs fired LOS and SSRMS. As a missile boat I usually focus scouts rather than big targets if they are near my teams hugbox.

This will make them want to leave in no time.

Edited by hanitora, 05 November 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[Noth]

hanitora, on 05 November 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Scouts are protected by lag armour, but TAG and missiles work on them. Both LRMs fired LOS and SSRMS. As a missile boat I usually focus scouts rather than big targets if they are near my teams hugbox.

This will make them want to leave in no time.

I'm not even talking about lag armor, I'm talking about the scout that keeps his distance while keeping you lit up so that the only way to reliably engage him and kill him is to come out of cover. There are also typically several spotter making iteven more difficult to deal with.

[PropagandaWar]

wanderer, on 05 November 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

You know what I heard a few patches back?

Gausscats defined the battle. OMG, THEY HAVE MULTIPLE GAUSSCATS, I GOT CORED AT 1100m, I CAN'T GO ON THE LAKE ON FOREST OR SNIPERS WILL GET MEEEEEEEE!

You know what I hear from premades these days?

LRM carriers exploding. A tactic becomes over-used when nobody learns to apply it's counters- and LRMs have those counters. I've seen them applied repeatedly. The reason you see so many LRM carriers is because of one thing- there are plenty of stupid targets easily blown to bits by them.

That's it. If more LRM users experienced the joys of frustration because they got whomped while the other team had the brain cells to go to cover, flanked, and ran 90m circles around that Catapult whilst peeling his arms off....you'd see fewer LRM users. If 3/4 Trials didn't have LRMs, you'd see....fewer LRM users.

LRMs are common on and highly effective against newbies. And those newbies, like PUGs in every patch, don't learn jack.

LRMs are common because they're "easy", and easy to win with because they're "common".

I really like how they are trying to cosmetically fix the gaussapult. Still needs work but at least they are going for it. Never cared about getting hit by dual gauss, just coming out of wee guns.

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

I'm not even talking about lag armor, I'm talking about the scout that keeps his distance while keeping you lit up so that the only way to reliably engage him and kill him is to come out of cover. There are also typically several spotter making iteven more difficult to deal with.

my hunchy can snap a jenner in half easily, or could before hits stopped registering. The fix tomorrow will hopefully fix this problem. Also wait till them start falling again.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 05 November 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[hanitora]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

I'm not even talking about lag armor, I'm talking about the scout that keeps his distance while keeping you lit up so that the only way to reliably engage him and kill him is to come out of cover. There are also typically several spotter making iteven more difficult to deal with.

Such a scout doesn't exist. A scout can either light you up and take missile fire or he can not light you up and not take missile fire. If your team loses lock on him, he loses lock on whatever he was targetting and the missile barrage will miss. There is a method of timing the barrage and painting so that this will work, but that requires massive coordination... and you have your own scout/medium mechs to send over to **** his face/chase him off/target tag him.

[Omni Tek]

I love how most of the replies to the LRM problem are "learn to use cover" when LRMs go over cover and hit you... or the cover your using is merely the illusion of cover.

[Noth]

hanitora, on 05 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Such a scout doesn't exist. A scout can either light you up and take missile fire or he can not light you up and not take missile fire. If your team loses lock on him, he loses lock on whatever he was targetting and the missile barrage will miss. There is a method of timing the barrage and painting so that this will work, but that requires massive coordination... and you have your own scout/medium mechs to send over to **** his face/chase him off/target tag him.

You'd be surprised by the scouts I see. You also fail to realize most scouts are not alone in their scouting, one may break lock but the other doesn't and then they can often rotate even without proper coordination just by paying attention to which one is drawing fire.

[PropagandaWar]

Omni Tek, on 05 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I love how most of the replies to the LRM problem are "learn to use cover" when LRMs go over cover and hit you... or the cover your using is merely the illusion of cover.

cover was broken in some areas. They are fixing it.